sarge 0 #26 January 7, 2003 Thanks bro, there's no doubt, rears are the way to get in in / plf withstanding. I guess I just have my own little gremlin that haunts me about it happening in the 190 of my 270.. ya know? -- I'm done with the personally meaningful and philosophical sigs!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,149 #27 January 7, 2003 If you're trained to go right in normal circumstances, then it's more likely that you'll go right in emergencies. British (along with Australians, Japanese, and some other countries) drive on the left, and therefor the automatic tendency seems to be to go left. At least in my personal experience when dodging people in doorways and such. Not large, but there. And when I was in Great Britain driving, I looked the wrong way first every time. Good thing I wasn't in any exciting driving situations. I'd like to think I'd pull my reserve when I'm really really low. But muscle memory and habit say I'd probably pull my main. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #28 January 8, 2003 Quote If you're trained to go right in normal circumstances, then it's more likely that you'll go right in emergencies. British (along with Australians, Japanese, and some other countries) drive on the left, and therefor the automatic tendency seems to be to go left. Now I know many/most skydivers are not pilots and have not gone through any sort of formal aviation training. But pilots are taught to vear right in a potential collision (regardless of where they are from) and if skydivers were to adopt the same policies, then it would be less of an issue. I was actually flying along one day in VFR conditions looking at a chart and when I looked up I saw an airplane about 1/2 to 1 mile away from me at the same altitude on a collision course. Well my instincts told me to turn right (which I did) and seconds later you could see the other pilot turn right once they saw my profile. It was probably the closest call I've had in my aviation career. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #29 January 8, 2003 QuoteWhat would you do if; 1. You lose altitude awareness, look down and see massive ground-rush (sub 1000 feet AGL)? Dump my main. I know, the reserve would theoretically open faster, but I can dump my main quicker. Several years ago, I'd have said I'd pull my reserve, but then just this scenario happened to me, and I dumped my main. I had a CYPRES at the time but was lucky enough to reach back during my main opening and catch my reserve bridle just as the CYPRES fired. I landed ~15 seconds later with my freebag held between my knees. Quote2. The load organizer says before boarding the airplane, "that due to zero winds, we will all land facing North", then under canopy you are going to be the first person to land the winds are now out of the south at about 7 mph? At the vast majority of DZ's I've been to, I'd land outside the main landing area, into the wind. In the rare instance this wasn't possible, I'd probably take it downwind (i.e. stick with the plan). Quote3. You are on a 6-way RW dive and notice one of the other skydiver's main pin has come out of the closing loop, but the deployment bag is still in the container? There is a video person on the dive. Depends on altitude. Assuming we're high, stop the dive, find the camera and wave him off. Point at the offending party, if it's a friend of mine, give him the middle finger (my friends know that the pull signal followed by the bird means "equipment problem"...i.e. "You're" - "F*cked"), point out where the problem is and stick around for a little while (because communication in the air is much more difficult than describing it on the ground). Quote4. You are on a 4-way RW dive and realize that the 4-way is 500 feet below the planned break-off altitude. Do you track for the same amount of altitude and pull 500 feet low?, or track less and pull on time? It's a 4-way and I've been trying to up my normal pull height a little, so 500 feet ain't gonna make much difference either way. Quote5. You are climbing out after another group and you notice that a jumper in the group ahead of you, which is half-way through their climb-out, has their cutaway pillow folded under their main lift web. The aircraft is a twin otter and there are people between you and this jumper. Yell "STOP" and try to get him to fix it, or at least make him aware of it. (I can yell pretty loud, so the folks on his stick inside the plane should be able to get the message) Quote6. Same scenario as the one above, except instead of the reserve pillow folded under, the jumper's BOC handle is tucked completely into the pouch. Same as #5, except try to get him back inside the plane. Quote7. On the normal main you jump, a steering line breaks on opening? At 1,500 ft? At 1,000 ft? At 500 ft? Land on rear risers. No problem standing up even slightly downwind on a Diablo @ 1.7. Much faster than that though and I'd slide it in like a tandem. Pretty simple with practice. Quote8. The first group is climbing out and you notice that a tandem Instructor, all set to exit, has forgotten to attach one of the passenger's upper harness attachment hooks? He's gonna be behind me. I'd act like it's a poor spot and call for a go-around, then quietly point it out to him. No need to freak out the student screaming at him like it's an emergency. Quote9. In a Cessna 182 on jump run, you will be the person spotting and just before you open the door you see the jumper in the back of the airplane push their reserve pin out of the loop, firing their reserve pilot chute into the back of the airplane? Don't open the door. Call for a go around. Point out the problem and have the person sit with their reserve against the back wall, with their hands holding their pc behind their butt. Everyone else exits and does an impromptu 3-way (lightening the load), pilot closes door, then the person can move forward. Quote10. On short final, you see another canopy coming directly at you. You neither of you do anything you will collide at about 30 ft. Depends on too many things to list here. Either flat turn right or flare over the top of them. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #30 January 8, 2003 Answered without having read others... Quote1. You lose altitude awareness, look down and see massive ground-rush (sub 1000 feet AGL)? Ensure belly to earth, pull silver. Quote2. The load organizer says before boarding the airplane, "that due to zero winds, we will all land facing North", then under canopy you are going to be the first person to land the winds are now out of the south at about 7 mph? Standard landing pattern is Into the wind, dropzone policy, or the direction of the first jumper down. Load organizers do not override this. Should I be the first jumper down on a no wind day at a DZ without a set policy, I choose the landing direction. Also, load organizers are not jump masters, and have not necesarily communicated with all jumpers on the load. Quote3. You are on a 6-way RW dive and notice one of the other skydiver's main pin has come out of the closing loop, but the deployment bag is still in the container? There is a video person on the dive. Wave off, turn 180 degrees, and track. Quote4. You are on a 4-way RW dive and realize that the 4-way is 500 feet below the planned break-off altitude. Do you track for the same amount of altitude and pull 500 feet low?, or track less and pull on time? Personally, I would track as far as required to ensure separation, at the risk of pulling at a lower then normal altitude. Quote5. You are climbing out after another group and you notice that a jumper in the group ahead of you, which is half-way through their climb-out, has their cutaway pillow folded under their main lift web. The aircraft is a twin otter and there are people between you and this jumper. Point, and yell. Quote 6. Same scenario as the one above, except instead of the reserve pillow folded under, the jumper's BOC handle is tucked completely into the pouch. Same answer. Point, and yell. Quote 7. On the normal main you jump, a steering line breaks on opening? At 1,500 ft? At 1,000 ft? At 500 ft? 1,500? Chop. 1,000? Chop. 500? Rear riser landing. While many recomend being able to do a rear riser landing, I am not interested in landing entirely on mine during an extremely stressful situation. I'll take the odds with my reserve over the odds of pulling off a good landing with my risers. Quote 8. The first group is climbing out and you notice that a tandem Instructor, all set to exit, has forgotten to attach one of the passenger's upper harness attachment hooks? I understand the question to be in a large aircraft, and the first group (not the TM) is exiting. The TM is still at the nose of the plane. I would look straight into the eyes of the TM, tap my shoulder, or hip as appropriate. Ensure he figures out what I'm telling him. Quote9. In a Cessna 182 on jump run, you will be the person spotting and just before you open the door you see the jumper in the back of the airplane push their reserve pin out of the loop, firing their reserve pilot chute into the back of the airplane? Keep the door closed, tell the pilot, then the jumpers. Have the jumper sit on his pilot chute to compress the spring. Quote 10. On short final, you see another canopy coming directly at you. You neither of you do anything you will collide at about 30 ft. Turn 5 degrees to the right. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dex 0 #31 January 8, 2003 1. Would prolly panic and throw main out... hopefully I'd be aware enough to get ready for a cutaway real quick if needed.... 2. Depends on dz rules and size... and how many skydivers behind me.... and what the winds have been doing all day... generally shifty all day I would land north, not play chase the sock; the people on the load should be ready for shifty winds... no winds all day land to the south... assuming traffic allows.. 3. Half of me says if I'm close put a hand on the dbag till video guy gets out of the way and dump for the guy.... other half of me says wave off (warning video guy) then pointing out to the jumper that has the mal... Waving off before notifying jumper so he does not panic and pull in vidmans face.. I'm more worried about the video guy taking a bad hit then the horse-shoe on the jumper... the video guy didn't choose to jump the gear the jumper is jumping.. 4. 4 way? Track normally pull a bit low splitting the diff losing 250 feet won't phase me... 5. I'd yell STOP 6. Also yell STOP 7. On opening release (unstow) other toggle, rear riser controllability check, 1500 let go of other one controllability; 1000 same...I'd cutaway if I *REALLY* didn't like the quick check results. Imagine I'd stick with canopy having a sabre2 150 with no brake line seems better then starting your reserve deployment at a grand and getting under 20-15 (?) seconds to land your reserve.... 500 ft.. let go other toggle rear riser adjustment/flair to land... not really considering a cutaway/deploy at this altitude. 8. "Hey TM can you give me a gear check before you finish hooking up" (In a normal sort of voice pretending like I ask TM's for gear checks all the time...) Not let the TM get by until he gives you your gear a look over and then hooks up his passenger hehehe ;) 9. Be a big wimp leave door closed demand lots of beer on landing from guy with premature... 10. Flat turn right STAT; ready to PLF in if need be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #32 January 8, 2003 1. I would like to think that I would deploy my reserve but reflex will probably be to go for my main. I would also be ready to start cranking on the rear risers to pump my canopy open faster. 2. 7mph down-winder? Sounds like fun. 3. Wave-off the formation and throw the pull signal at the other jumper. 4. Track for the same amount of time. For the 4-way that I have done that still gives me pack opening a bit above 2300-2500. 5. Yell "Stop" loudly and clearly. If it is too late, let another jumper with his group know. 6. Same as above. 7. Same for all altitudes. Release the other brake and prepare for a rear-riser landing. I'm not chopping a perfectly-good main just because I lost a control line. However, losing one on opening is going to require some pretty fancy harness work to keep my Stiletto @ 1.4:1 flying sanely during the opening. 8. Get the TM's attention and let him know without alarming the student. Mistakes happen and that's fine as long as it isn't a pattern. 9. Keep the door closed, close the windows, make sure the jumper knows and has it contained, and inform the pilot to abort the jump. 10. Immediate 1/2 brakes into a flat turn. I practice that same scenario on 4 out of 5 jumps. Kris Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ernokaikkonen 0 #33 January 8, 2003 Could someone explain this one to me? Concerning scenario No.3, there were a lot of answers like: -"Get the jumper's attention and signal him to pull." -"Stop the dive, dock on him and give him a pull signal (pointing to his back.)" -"3. Give the classic AFF pull signal, if nothing is done, wave off the dive and track away. " -"3) Stop working, start pointing (which coincides nicely with an AFF pull signal)." -"3, Give the pull signal and wave off." And from experienced jumpers too. If the jumper with the dislodged main pin happens to comply to your "pull" signal, didn't you just kill him and the cameraman? Wouldn't it be better to just wave off, which would also signal the cameraman that it's time to pull? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Genie 0 #34 January 8, 2003 QuoteWhat would you do if; 8. Get the pilot to red light the dive, if I'm not near the pilot, tell the instructor, if I can't get that done, well, those hooks are rated to keep a passenger on the TM with only one out of the 4 hooked up. Ok i dont doubt that the TSOs are accurate - but what effect would that have on a tandem pair? Imagine the guy goes out the door with only one hook done... how does he get stable? What are the liklihoods of getting wrapped if you have a passenger flailing around you in a 360 degree circuit? What are the chances of inducing an Helsinki Spin? The one hook may keep the passenger attached but i cant see that they would possibly be able to land it in any way safely - what does anyone else think ? Genie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Genie 0 #35 January 8, 2003 Quote Answered without having read others... Quote 1. You lose altitude awareness, look down and see massive ground-rush (sub 1000 feet AGL)? Quote Ensure belly to earth, pull silver. This brings me back to the standard rules 1) Pull 2) Pull Stable 3) Pull at altitude But for godssake PULL! If it was me and i was sub 1000 ft, i wouldnt be worrying about getting belly to earth as much as i would be worried about getting something over me.. 1000ft to ground in freefall is about 5 secs or so isnt it? 7. On the normal main you jump, a steering line breaks on opening? At 1,500 ft? At 1,000 ft? At 500 ft? 1,500? Chop. 1,000? Chop. 500? Rear riser landing. While many recomend being able to do a rear riser landing, I am not interested in landing entirely on mine during an extremely stressful situation. I'll take the odds with my reserve over the odds of pulling off a good landing with my risers. Quote Just one tiny point here - think Schroedingers Cat... The odds on your reserve is at least 50/50 that it will open ok without a mal... (or at least thats how i would look at it until i open it!) and you have a good main above you with one broken line.. Others with far far more experience than me have pointed out that this is not a risk minimisation strategy. I rem seeing advice from someone that said you shouldnt downsize until you can do everything with your present canopy - including landing it in risers. I suppose tho that some canopies are easier/safer to land in risers than others and perhaps theres a risk factor trying to land an elliptical in risers? I dont know and would appreciate it if someone older and wiser could let me know? 8. The first group is climbing out and you notice that a tandem Instructor, all set to exit, has forgotten to attach one of the passenger's upper harness attachment hooks? I understand the question to be in a large aircraft, and the first group (not the TM) is exiting. The TM is still at the nose of the plane. I would look straight into the eyes of the TM, tap my shoulder, or hip as appropriate. Ensure he figures out what I'm telling him. Quote 9. In a Cessna 182 on jump run, you will be the person spotting and just before you open the door you see the jumper in the back of the airplane push their reserve pin out of the loop, firing their reserve pilot chute into the back of the airplane? Keep the door closed, tell the pilot, then the jumpers. Have the jumper sit on his pilot chute to compress the spring. Quote 10. On short final, you see another canopy coming directly at you. You neither of you do anything you will collide at about 30 ft. Turn 5 degrees to the right. _Am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #36 January 8, 2003 The sad thing is I have had most of these happen to me. 1. You lose altitude awareness, look down and see massive ground-rush (sub 1000 feet AGL)? Happend on my 200ish jump. I was asked to video the primary video guy's 300 jump on a Tandem....It was late, we left at about 6 grand. I was on a piece meal video setup. Tandem pulled low 4 grand. Video guy fliped to video them...I thought cool I'll do that for him. He came to me, geeked the camera, and pulled...I fliped to watch him, go, then saw horizon were I had never seen it before, fliped over thinking RESERVE, but but the time I thought it, I had trown my main....I hav an open main at around 500 feet. 2. The load organizer says before boarding the airplane, "that due to zero winds, we will all land facing North", then under canopy you are going to be the first person to land the winds are now out of the south at about 7 mph? If it will not cause a large problem requardless of ANY size load...I land into the wind (most of the accidents of late have been people from single plane loads). It it is going to cause a problem. I land out. Also never say "North"....I don't have a compass with me....no one does....always say things like "Road to runway" or "Manifest to Packing tent". 3. You are on a 6-way RW dive and notice one of the other skydiver's main pin has come out of the closing loop. Happend on a 3 way with video....I pointed like mad at the guy...He started pointing back. He said later that he thought I was yelling at him that he was brainlocking...he started yelling back that he was not. I finaly docked on him like an AFF looked up and saw the video guy was now on level with us, and dumped him out......If it was not for the video, I think the guy would have tried to kick my ass for telling him he brainlocked, and then dumping him out. 4. You are on a 4-way RW dive and realize that the 4-way is 500 feet below. Track like normal....500 feet low on a 3500 feet break off is nothing. 5. You are climbing out after another group and you notice that a jumper in the group ahead of you, which is half-way through their climb-out, has their cutaway pillow folded under their main lift web This happend to me on 8way it either got there when the harness grip was taken, or as the wind blew it back on exit as they held my harness away from my body....And yes, I had a Mal on my Stiletto....The harness was pushed into my body, and between 2 pockets of my old weight vest. I tried like hell to get it, and could not. I thought "Well your dead. Pull your reserve about 600 feet (Low enough to lessen the risk of a double entaglement, high enough to ensure it opens)." I thought "If it werent for these $@$@ Gloves....I took my right glove off felt for the handle managed to get it and did a "gunslinger pull" Cut away, and pulled the reserve as soon as I was almost belly to earth. I kept both handles and the glove. I would yell Stop, and try to grab him and pull him back. If he left he is on his own...I lived I hope he does. 6. reserve pillow folded under, the jumper's BOC handle is tucked completely into the pouch. Yell like hell to stop, try to grab him....If he goes I try to go with them and get him to try and pull early. A lot of these can be prevented by looking at everyones gear during the climb to altitude. 7. On the normal main you jump, a steering line breaks on opening? on a Velocity at 1.9-1....Cut away...till around 700-800 feet. After that land it. 8. The first group is climbing out and you notice that a tandem Instructor, all set to exit, has forgotten to attach one of the passenger's upper harness attachment hooks? Get his attention...If I can't talk to him on the ground. 9. In a Cessna 182 on jump run, you will be the person spotting and just before you open the door you see the jumper in the back of the airplane push their reserve pin out of the loop, firing their reserve pilot chute into the back of the airplane? Abort the jump...keep the door closed and try to contain the parachute....If it goes out, push him out. He is going anyway. 10. On short final, you see another canopy coming directly at you. You neither of you do anything you will collide at about 30 ft. Depends on the angle at which we are coming....Head on, turn right...If it is a quartering arrival, do what ever I have to do to evade or minimize the angle of the collision....and Pray. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #37 January 8, 2003 Hey brother all of your answers are good... Here comes the except part... If there is a loose reserve.....NEVER OPEN A CLOSED DOOR. The dive is over. If that pilot chute gets wind....you will not be able to stop it. The jumper will be extracted from the aircraft...by going right through to door and part of the wall. The chute could get entagled with the elevator....and all on board could die.... As opposed to calling the guy names, and making him buy me a beer. The plane took off with X number aboard..It can land with the same number. The possible risks are to large to try and exit anyone. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #38 January 8, 2003 QuoteHalf of me says if I'm close put a hand on the dbag till video guy gets out of the way and dump for the guy Bad idea to try and hold the bag in.....Much harder than your would think, and you risk getting your hand/arm entagled in lines.....a very sure way to kill yourself. Plus the jumper is not going to just "let" you do it...He is going to try and get away from you, and he will most likely not let you just dump him out. If you are not an Instructor, or a pretty damn good flyer...Just point at him or break off early..Trying to "help" him may kill him or yourself. The video guy will see you flying up to him, and telling him to pull.....he will move out of the way...I have had this happen. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #39 January 8, 2003 Quote This brings me back to the standard rules 1) Pull 2) Pull Stable 3) Pull at altitude Every set of 'standard rules' has an exception. "Pulling stable" is not enough. I can be perfectly stable on my head, where deploying my reserve would likely shred both the reserve and my spinal chord. Even should I find myself at 1,000 feet, I would take the time to go belly, first. Not to "get stable", but to slow down. Granted that I would not take the full 5 seconds I usally do to slow down, but I would be on my belly. It is possible that with how common freefying is becoming, it might be time to re-adjust this "standard rule". Quote I rem seeing advice from someone that said you shouldnt downsize until you can do everything with your present canopy - including landing it in risers. I suppose tho that some canopies are easier/safer to land in risers than others and perhaps theres a risk factor trying to land an elliptical in risers? I dont know and would appreciate it if someone older and wiser could let me know? While I respect both the individuals who say this, and the idea in general, to me - personally, it's something that I'm unwilling to attempt unless absolutely necessary. I am flying a Stileto loaded at about 1.65ish. Landing entirely on rear risers (whether intentional or in an emergency) seems like a sure leg-breaker to me. I'd be willing to do it on bigger canopies, but not my Stileto. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Genie 0 #40 January 8, 2003 Quote Quote This brings me back to the standard rules 1) Pull 2) Pull Stable 3) Pull at altitude Quote Every set of 'standard rules' has an exception. "Pulling stable" is not enough. I can be perfectly stable on my head, where deploying my reserve would likely shred both the reserve and my spinal chord. Even should I find myself at 1,000 feet, I would take the time to go belly, first. Not to "get stable", but to slow down. Granted that I would not take the full 5 seconds I usally do to slow down, but I would be on my belly. It is possible that with how common freefying is becoming, it might be time to re-adjust this "standard rule". Thank you for taking the time to reply Andyman! I did wonder if that was your reasoning and thank you for explaining it clearly - I completely agree that opening at 800 ft and blowing your canopy apart isnt a great idea either And you could be right about the standard rules too :) Quote I rem seeing advice from someone that said you shouldnt downsize until you can do everything with your present canopy - including landing it in risers. I suppose tho that some canopies are easier/safer to land in risers than others and perhaps theres a risk factor trying to land an elliptical in risers? I dont know and would appreciate it if someone older and wiser could let me know? Quote While I respect both the individuals who say this, and the idea in general, to me - personally, it's something that I'm unwilling to attempt unless absolutely necessary. I am flying a Stileto loaded at about 1.65ish. Landing entirely on rear risers (whether intentional or in an emergency) seems like a sure leg-breaker to me. I'd be willing to do it on bigger canopies, but not my Stileto. Can i ask you why you think you would be that much more likely to break a leg with a rear riser flare rather than a toggle flare? I fly a big 170 and havent noticed that much difference in the flares between the 2 but then again its a totally conservative canopy - do you see a large difference on yours? Of course as someone ele pointed out a stilletto with a broken steering line may need to be chopped immediately anyway - a mate of mine had a severe spinning mal with just a brake fire. Im not trying to rise you Andy, i am just wondering. Havent been able to jump for a while coz of Vertigo symptoms and after 3 weeks clear i woke up with them again today so its going to be a while yet. At least this way i can learn something thanks again for replying so fast Genie _Am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #41 January 8, 2003 The rules are in place for a reason..... Pull Pull Stable Pull at the right Altitude They still work even with a headdown flyer.... It is better to pull than hit the ground. At 1000 feet you have 6 seconds Flat flying, At freefly, what about 4.5 seconds? If you have not started your pull before 300 feet even flat it is pretty unlikley that you will survive. You can pull and go flat at the same time, but at that high of a speed I would not take anytime getting on the pull. At 1000 feet you just don't have the time. I have been sub grand a few times at terminal. Once was an accident, the others stupidity I managed to live through. But to each his own, Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites livendive 8 #42 January 8, 2003 QuoteHey brother all of your answers are good... Here comes the except part... If there is a loose reserve.....NEVER OPEN A CLOSED DOOR. The dive is over. If that pilot chute gets wind....you will not be able to stop it. The jumper will be extracted from the aircraft...by going right through to door and part of the wall. The chute could get entagled with the elevator....and all on board could die.... As opposed to calling the guy names, and making him buy me a beer. The plane took off with X number aboard..It can land with the same number. The possible risks are to large to try and exit anyone. Having played with main and reserve pilot chutes in an open door, and even outside the door (as an IAD instructor), I think this is a common misperception. There's nothing magic about the door, and I'm sure you know it's only in Hollywood that things are "sucked out" of such an opening. Ever see someone wave off, pull, then hang on to their PC for a second or two? Provided it's not a pullout, they'll be holding it by the apex and thus it's not ripped out of their hands. Pilot chutes are designed to work under certain parameters (open and "facing" significant wind), and they're relatively benign outside of those parameters. They certainly won't be catching much wind stowed between his butt and the back of the cabin (unless he farts). I know that if a plane takes off with 4 jumpers, it can land with 4 jumpers, but the pilot is used to landing it relatively empty and I don't consider an open container (main or reserve) an emergency that justifies taking him out of his norm. The exceptions are if the person with the open reserve is a student of mine (then I'll certainly be landing with the plane), or a novice who is overly concerned about the situation. Outside of that, an open reserve container in the back of a 182 is simply not a big deal. That doesn't mean the offending party won't be buying beer for hosing our 4-way. :-) Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #43 January 8, 2003 QuoteThe rules are in place for a reason..... Pull Pull Stable Pull at the right Altitude They still work even with a headdown flyer.... It is better to pull than hit the ground. Debatable. Pulling my reserve in a head down would kill me just as quickly as the ground would. If it didn't kill me, it would leave me a parapalegic, most likely. Going to my belly, then pulling asap would probably leave me initiating a deployment around 700 feet. Given muscle memory, I would probably pull my main, and die. If I was smart, I'd pull my reserve, and live. Most likely, I'd have a cypres fire at 750. Hopefully I'm on my belly, cause if I'm on my head, it won't be pretty. Given the situation of being on my head at 1000 feet, I'm given two equally bad alternatives. Each one might kill me for very different reasons. One has a chance of me walking away from, one has a chance of me suriving with serious spinal damage. The odds of surviving either case is small, but I'll take the one where I walk away. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jimbo 0 #44 January 8, 2003 QuoteAnd from experienced jumpers too. If the jumper with the dislodged main pin happens to comply to your "pull" signal, didn't you just kill him and the cameraman? Wouldn't it be better to just wave off, which would also signal the cameraman that it's time to pull? Thanks for pointing that out! I read all the replies when this thread first started and kept thinking to myself "Congrats, you just killed your camera man." It's surprising to me how many of the initial responses didn't seem to take into account the fact that there was another body in the same airspace as the deploying parachute. I've given some thought to what I might do in this situation. I'd like to think that I would attempt to dock AFF style on the jumper and push him out of the way. On the other hand maybe it's just best to wave off and hope to hell that the camera man accepts the signal. I wonder, what is the best answer? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 3 #45 January 8, 2003 my responses: 1. You lose altitude awareness, look down and see massive ground-rush (sub 1000 feet AGL)? say "fuck" and pull my reserve 2. The load organizer says before boarding the airplane, "that due to zero winds, we will all land facing North", then under canopy you are going to be the first person to land the winds are now out of the south at about 7 mph? swoop downwind, sliding to a complete stop. Then, stand there and get dead in anyone's ass who did other than the pre-declared landing. Doing otherwise leads to the chaos we witnessed at Eloy during the Collegiates when the alternate landing area was closed. 3. You are on a 6-way RW dive and notice one of the other skydiver's main pin has come out of the closing loop, but the deployment bag is still in the container? There is a video person on the dive. If I could not get to this person before exit, I would fly over, point at the rig, then probably dock on the person and hold my hand over his main container until a safe pull altitude, then make sure he gets his PC out fine. That's the AFF monkey in me coming out. 4. You are on a 4-way RW dive and realize that the 4-way is 500 feet below the planned break-off altitude. Do you track for the same amount of altitude and pull 500 feet low?, or track less and pull on time? I am going to un-ass in my most efficient track, then pull at around the same altitude. 5. You are climbing out after another group and you notice that a jumper in the group ahead of you, which is half-way through their climb-out, has their cutaway pillow folded under their main lift web. The aircraft is a twin otter and there are people between you and this jumper. How far ahead? I would holler to someone and try and stop their count. If I were in the next group and was not doing anything of consequence (like freeflying), I might just dive down and untuck the guy's handle for him. If I were too far back in the plane, I would just hope that the guy had a clean opening. 6. Same scenario as the one above, except instead of the reserve pillow folded under, the jumper's BOC handle is tucked completely into the pouch. Same as above. I would holler LOUDLY, and then assist if I were in a position to do so. 7. On the normal main you jump, a steering line breaks on opening? At 1,500 ft? At 1,000 ft? At 500 ft? Nowadays, on opening I would try and clear the other brake before my main spun up on me. If successful, I would land it on rears. I would also land on rears from any of the other altitudes mentioned. While I may not take my rear-riser landings to a full stop on most occasions, I always transition my hands to the rears at around 150/200 feet. I keep them there until I decide to either flare with toggles or just keep rear risering. 8. The first group is climbing out and you notice that a tandem Instructor, all set to exit, has forgotten to attach one of the passenger's upper harness attachment hooks? I scream at the moron LOUDLY and try to get him to stop. I doubt I would try and fly down to try and hook up the other attachment since I know that one hook will suffice. You can bet your ass I would unload on that person once he was on the ground, unhooked, and the passenger was out of earshot. There is no cause for this to happen. It reminds me of the person who left with only the two hip attachments hooked up. The passenger was fine, but this was a HORRIBLE failure of following basic procedure. 9. In a Cessna 182 on jump run, you will be the person spotting and just before you open the door you see the jumper in the back of the airplane push their reserve pin out of the loop, firing their reserve pilot chute into the back of the airplane? Yell "pilot chute" and control the canopy. Everyone lands with the plane. That is our SOP here at Raeford and at both military clubs. 10. On short final, you see another canopy coming directly at you. You neither of you do anything you will collide at about 30 ft. Who was following the correct flight path? Either way, I would throw a hard carve and get out of the way. Once on the ground safely, we would both talk it out along with the S&TA or whoever was watching. Someone is ALWAYS watching. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,434 #46 January 8, 2003 >Imagine the guy goes out the door with only one hook done... how >does he get stable? Like normal. You can get a tandem stable with BOTH upper hooks undone - it's been done, unfortunately. >The one hook may keep the passenger attached but i cant see that >they would possibly be able to land it in any way safely . . . Adam landed a tandem like that safely, with just one upper hook connected - no laterals, even. Fortunately the passenger was an experienced jumper with a backup rig on; they were trying a tandem Mr. Bill. After exit they could not disconnect that one upper B-12. The canopy wanted to turn but was controllable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,434 #47 January 8, 2003 >If the jumper with the dislodged main pin happens to comply to >your "pull" signal, didn't you just kill him and the cameraman? If you stop the dive, fly to the other person, and give him a pull signal, then the cameraman is going to see that. At that point, the jumper is going to wave off and pull like normal. The cameraman will see that, too. He has a good vantage point. >Wouldn't it be better to just wave off, which would also signal the >cameraman that it's time to pull? That means you're about to pull. If I had a problem with my pin, and I saw someone wave off, I'd probably turn and track - thus compounding my problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,434 #48 January 8, 2003 >Every set of 'standard rules' has an exception. "Pulling stable" is not >enough. I can be perfectly stable on my head, where deploying my > reserve would likely shred both the reserve and my spinal chord. I think everyone in skydiving understands that the 'pull stable' part of the 3 freefall priorities refers to being on your belly. >Even should I find myself at 1,000 feet, I would take the time to go > belly, first. Not to "get stable", but to slow down. At head down speeds at 1000 feet, you have about 3 seconds to impact, and about a second to open a canopy if you want to live. Not even a cypres may give you a reserve in time, as cypreses were not designed for speeds in excess of about 150mph. Opening at those speeds may well break your back, but delaying at all will kill you for sure. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 15 #49 January 8, 2003 As a somewhat camera flyer I always tell my groups that when they break I'm pulling in place, at 5000 or 4500 feet my obligation to them is done and I'm pulling soon if they are done or not. If someone breaks at 8k, I'd probally end up doing nothing, but I'd be looking at the jumpers a lot closer and I'd like to think I'd see it. I've see a PC come out of an ROL except for the last about 1 inch and moved fast from on top to a side view. If the LO calls for a break, the rest of the group should break it down too, thus if someone see something bad, call the break, get the lo's attention and split. Kicking the legs too is a nice break signal if the LO is docked on them.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,434 #50 January 8, 2003 >Then, stand there and get dead in anyone's ass who did other than > the pre-declared landing. Look out - he may well say "Dude, I was on the four-way who got out first, and normal pattern here is land into the wind." Your load organizer may not be his load organizer. 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Genie 0 #35 January 8, 2003 Quote Answered without having read others... Quote 1. You lose altitude awareness, look down and see massive ground-rush (sub 1000 feet AGL)? Quote Ensure belly to earth, pull silver. This brings me back to the standard rules 1) Pull 2) Pull Stable 3) Pull at altitude But for godssake PULL! If it was me and i was sub 1000 ft, i wouldnt be worrying about getting belly to earth as much as i would be worried about getting something over me.. 1000ft to ground in freefall is about 5 secs or so isnt it? 7. On the normal main you jump, a steering line breaks on opening? At 1,500 ft? At 1,000 ft? At 500 ft? 1,500? Chop. 1,000? Chop. 500? Rear riser landing. While many recomend being able to do a rear riser landing, I am not interested in landing entirely on mine during an extremely stressful situation. I'll take the odds with my reserve over the odds of pulling off a good landing with my risers. Quote Just one tiny point here - think Schroedingers Cat... The odds on your reserve is at least 50/50 that it will open ok without a mal... (or at least thats how i would look at it until i open it!) and you have a good main above you with one broken line.. Others with far far more experience than me have pointed out that this is not a risk minimisation strategy. I rem seeing advice from someone that said you shouldnt downsize until you can do everything with your present canopy - including landing it in risers. I suppose tho that some canopies are easier/safer to land in risers than others and perhaps theres a risk factor trying to land an elliptical in risers? I dont know and would appreciate it if someone older and wiser could let me know? 8. The first group is climbing out and you notice that a tandem Instructor, all set to exit, has forgotten to attach one of the passenger's upper harness attachment hooks? I understand the question to be in a large aircraft, and the first group (not the TM) is exiting. The TM is still at the nose of the plane. I would look straight into the eyes of the TM, tap my shoulder, or hip as appropriate. Ensure he figures out what I'm telling him. Quote 9. In a Cessna 182 on jump run, you will be the person spotting and just before you open the door you see the jumper in the back of the airplane push their reserve pin out of the loop, firing their reserve pilot chute into the back of the airplane? Keep the door closed, tell the pilot, then the jumpers. Have the jumper sit on his pilot chute to compress the spring. Quote 10. On short final, you see another canopy coming directly at you. You neither of you do anything you will collide at about 30 ft. Turn 5 degrees to the right. _Am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #36 January 8, 2003 The sad thing is I have had most of these happen to me. 1. You lose altitude awareness, look down and see massive ground-rush (sub 1000 feet AGL)? Happend on my 200ish jump. I was asked to video the primary video guy's 300 jump on a Tandem....It was late, we left at about 6 grand. I was on a piece meal video setup. Tandem pulled low 4 grand. Video guy fliped to video them...I thought cool I'll do that for him. He came to me, geeked the camera, and pulled...I fliped to watch him, go, then saw horizon were I had never seen it before, fliped over thinking RESERVE, but but the time I thought it, I had trown my main....I hav an open main at around 500 feet. 2. The load organizer says before boarding the airplane, "that due to zero winds, we will all land facing North", then under canopy you are going to be the first person to land the winds are now out of the south at about 7 mph? If it will not cause a large problem requardless of ANY size load...I land into the wind (most of the accidents of late have been people from single plane loads). It it is going to cause a problem. I land out. Also never say "North"....I don't have a compass with me....no one does....always say things like "Road to runway" or "Manifest to Packing tent". 3. You are on a 6-way RW dive and notice one of the other skydiver's main pin has come out of the closing loop. Happend on a 3 way with video....I pointed like mad at the guy...He started pointing back. He said later that he thought I was yelling at him that he was brainlocking...he started yelling back that he was not. I finaly docked on him like an AFF looked up and saw the video guy was now on level with us, and dumped him out......If it was not for the video, I think the guy would have tried to kick my ass for telling him he brainlocked, and then dumping him out. 4. You are on a 4-way RW dive and realize that the 4-way is 500 feet below. Track like normal....500 feet low on a 3500 feet break off is nothing. 5. You are climbing out after another group and you notice that a jumper in the group ahead of you, which is half-way through their climb-out, has their cutaway pillow folded under their main lift web This happend to me on 8way it either got there when the harness grip was taken, or as the wind blew it back on exit as they held my harness away from my body....And yes, I had a Mal on my Stiletto....The harness was pushed into my body, and between 2 pockets of my old weight vest. I tried like hell to get it, and could not. I thought "Well your dead. Pull your reserve about 600 feet (Low enough to lessen the risk of a double entaglement, high enough to ensure it opens)." I thought "If it werent for these $@$@ Gloves....I took my right glove off felt for the handle managed to get it and did a "gunslinger pull" Cut away, and pulled the reserve as soon as I was almost belly to earth. I kept both handles and the glove. I would yell Stop, and try to grab him and pull him back. If he left he is on his own...I lived I hope he does. 6. reserve pillow folded under, the jumper's BOC handle is tucked completely into the pouch. Yell like hell to stop, try to grab him....If he goes I try to go with them and get him to try and pull early. A lot of these can be prevented by looking at everyones gear during the climb to altitude. 7. On the normal main you jump, a steering line breaks on opening? on a Velocity at 1.9-1....Cut away...till around 700-800 feet. After that land it. 8. The first group is climbing out and you notice that a tandem Instructor, all set to exit, has forgotten to attach one of the passenger's upper harness attachment hooks? Get his attention...If I can't talk to him on the ground. 9. In a Cessna 182 on jump run, you will be the person spotting and just before you open the door you see the jumper in the back of the airplane push their reserve pin out of the loop, firing their reserve pilot chute into the back of the airplane? Abort the jump...keep the door closed and try to contain the parachute....If it goes out, push him out. He is going anyway. 10. On short final, you see another canopy coming directly at you. You neither of you do anything you will collide at about 30 ft. Depends on the angle at which we are coming....Head on, turn right...If it is a quartering arrival, do what ever I have to do to evade or minimize the angle of the collision....and Pray. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #37 January 8, 2003 Hey brother all of your answers are good... Here comes the except part... If there is a loose reserve.....NEVER OPEN A CLOSED DOOR. The dive is over. If that pilot chute gets wind....you will not be able to stop it. The jumper will be extracted from the aircraft...by going right through to door and part of the wall. The chute could get entagled with the elevator....and all on board could die.... As opposed to calling the guy names, and making him buy me a beer. The plane took off with X number aboard..It can land with the same number. The possible risks are to large to try and exit anyone. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #38 January 8, 2003 QuoteHalf of me says if I'm close put a hand on the dbag till video guy gets out of the way and dump for the guy Bad idea to try and hold the bag in.....Much harder than your would think, and you risk getting your hand/arm entagled in lines.....a very sure way to kill yourself. Plus the jumper is not going to just "let" you do it...He is going to try and get away from you, and he will most likely not let you just dump him out. If you are not an Instructor, or a pretty damn good flyer...Just point at him or break off early..Trying to "help" him may kill him or yourself. The video guy will see you flying up to him, and telling him to pull.....he will move out of the way...I have had this happen. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #39 January 8, 2003 Quote This brings me back to the standard rules 1) Pull 2) Pull Stable 3) Pull at altitude Every set of 'standard rules' has an exception. "Pulling stable" is not enough. I can be perfectly stable on my head, where deploying my reserve would likely shred both the reserve and my spinal chord. Even should I find myself at 1,000 feet, I would take the time to go belly, first. Not to "get stable", but to slow down. Granted that I would not take the full 5 seconds I usally do to slow down, but I would be on my belly. It is possible that with how common freefying is becoming, it might be time to re-adjust this "standard rule". Quote I rem seeing advice from someone that said you shouldnt downsize until you can do everything with your present canopy - including landing it in risers. I suppose tho that some canopies are easier/safer to land in risers than others and perhaps theres a risk factor trying to land an elliptical in risers? I dont know and would appreciate it if someone older and wiser could let me know? While I respect both the individuals who say this, and the idea in general, to me - personally, it's something that I'm unwilling to attempt unless absolutely necessary. I am flying a Stileto loaded at about 1.65ish. Landing entirely on rear risers (whether intentional or in an emergency) seems like a sure leg-breaker to me. I'd be willing to do it on bigger canopies, but not my Stileto. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Genie 0 #40 January 8, 2003 Quote Quote This brings me back to the standard rules 1) Pull 2) Pull Stable 3) Pull at altitude Quote Every set of 'standard rules' has an exception. "Pulling stable" is not enough. I can be perfectly stable on my head, where deploying my reserve would likely shred both the reserve and my spinal chord. Even should I find myself at 1,000 feet, I would take the time to go belly, first. Not to "get stable", but to slow down. Granted that I would not take the full 5 seconds I usally do to slow down, but I would be on my belly. It is possible that with how common freefying is becoming, it might be time to re-adjust this "standard rule". Thank you for taking the time to reply Andyman! I did wonder if that was your reasoning and thank you for explaining it clearly - I completely agree that opening at 800 ft and blowing your canopy apart isnt a great idea either And you could be right about the standard rules too :) Quote I rem seeing advice from someone that said you shouldnt downsize until you can do everything with your present canopy - including landing it in risers. I suppose tho that some canopies are easier/safer to land in risers than others and perhaps theres a risk factor trying to land an elliptical in risers? I dont know and would appreciate it if someone older and wiser could let me know? Quote While I respect both the individuals who say this, and the idea in general, to me - personally, it's something that I'm unwilling to attempt unless absolutely necessary. I am flying a Stileto loaded at about 1.65ish. Landing entirely on rear risers (whether intentional or in an emergency) seems like a sure leg-breaker to me. I'd be willing to do it on bigger canopies, but not my Stileto. Can i ask you why you think you would be that much more likely to break a leg with a rear riser flare rather than a toggle flare? I fly a big 170 and havent noticed that much difference in the flares between the 2 but then again its a totally conservative canopy - do you see a large difference on yours? Of course as someone ele pointed out a stilletto with a broken steering line may need to be chopped immediately anyway - a mate of mine had a severe spinning mal with just a brake fire. Im not trying to rise you Andy, i am just wondering. Havent been able to jump for a while coz of Vertigo symptoms and after 3 weeks clear i woke up with them again today so its going to be a while yet. At least this way i can learn something thanks again for replying so fast Genie _Am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #41 January 8, 2003 The rules are in place for a reason..... Pull Pull Stable Pull at the right Altitude They still work even with a headdown flyer.... It is better to pull than hit the ground. At 1000 feet you have 6 seconds Flat flying, At freefly, what about 4.5 seconds? If you have not started your pull before 300 feet even flat it is pretty unlikley that you will survive. You can pull and go flat at the same time, but at that high of a speed I would not take anytime getting on the pull. At 1000 feet you just don't have the time. I have been sub grand a few times at terminal. Once was an accident, the others stupidity I managed to live through. But to each his own, Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #42 January 8, 2003 QuoteHey brother all of your answers are good... Here comes the except part... If there is a loose reserve.....NEVER OPEN A CLOSED DOOR. The dive is over. If that pilot chute gets wind....you will not be able to stop it. The jumper will be extracted from the aircraft...by going right through to door and part of the wall. The chute could get entagled with the elevator....and all on board could die.... As opposed to calling the guy names, and making him buy me a beer. The plane took off with X number aboard..It can land with the same number. The possible risks are to large to try and exit anyone. Having played with main and reserve pilot chutes in an open door, and even outside the door (as an IAD instructor), I think this is a common misperception. There's nothing magic about the door, and I'm sure you know it's only in Hollywood that things are "sucked out" of such an opening. Ever see someone wave off, pull, then hang on to their PC for a second or two? Provided it's not a pullout, they'll be holding it by the apex and thus it's not ripped out of their hands. Pilot chutes are designed to work under certain parameters (open and "facing" significant wind), and they're relatively benign outside of those parameters. They certainly won't be catching much wind stowed between his butt and the back of the cabin (unless he farts). I know that if a plane takes off with 4 jumpers, it can land with 4 jumpers, but the pilot is used to landing it relatively empty and I don't consider an open container (main or reserve) an emergency that justifies taking him out of his norm. The exceptions are if the person with the open reserve is a student of mine (then I'll certainly be landing with the plane), or a novice who is overly concerned about the situation. Outside of that, an open reserve container in the back of a 182 is simply not a big deal. That doesn't mean the offending party won't be buying beer for hosing our 4-way. :-) Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #43 January 8, 2003 QuoteThe rules are in place for a reason..... Pull Pull Stable Pull at the right Altitude They still work even with a headdown flyer.... It is better to pull than hit the ground. Debatable. Pulling my reserve in a head down would kill me just as quickly as the ground would. If it didn't kill me, it would leave me a parapalegic, most likely. Going to my belly, then pulling asap would probably leave me initiating a deployment around 700 feet. Given muscle memory, I would probably pull my main, and die. If I was smart, I'd pull my reserve, and live. Most likely, I'd have a cypres fire at 750. Hopefully I'm on my belly, cause if I'm on my head, it won't be pretty. Given the situation of being on my head at 1000 feet, I'm given two equally bad alternatives. Each one might kill me for very different reasons. One has a chance of me walking away from, one has a chance of me suriving with serious spinal damage. The odds of surviving either case is small, but I'll take the one where I walk away. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #44 January 8, 2003 QuoteAnd from experienced jumpers too. If the jumper with the dislodged main pin happens to comply to your "pull" signal, didn't you just kill him and the cameraman? Wouldn't it be better to just wave off, which would also signal the cameraman that it's time to pull? Thanks for pointing that out! I read all the replies when this thread first started and kept thinking to myself "Congrats, you just killed your camera man." It's surprising to me how many of the initial responses didn't seem to take into account the fact that there was another body in the same airspace as the deploying parachute. I've given some thought to what I might do in this situation. I'd like to think that I would attempt to dock AFF style on the jumper and push him out of the way. On the other hand maybe it's just best to wave off and hope to hell that the camera man accepts the signal. I wonder, what is the best answer? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #45 January 8, 2003 my responses: 1. You lose altitude awareness, look down and see massive ground-rush (sub 1000 feet AGL)? say "fuck" and pull my reserve 2. The load organizer says before boarding the airplane, "that due to zero winds, we will all land facing North", then under canopy you are going to be the first person to land the winds are now out of the south at about 7 mph? swoop downwind, sliding to a complete stop. Then, stand there and get dead in anyone's ass who did other than the pre-declared landing. Doing otherwise leads to the chaos we witnessed at Eloy during the Collegiates when the alternate landing area was closed. 3. You are on a 6-way RW dive and notice one of the other skydiver's main pin has come out of the closing loop, but the deployment bag is still in the container? There is a video person on the dive. If I could not get to this person before exit, I would fly over, point at the rig, then probably dock on the person and hold my hand over his main container until a safe pull altitude, then make sure he gets his PC out fine. That's the AFF monkey in me coming out. 4. You are on a 4-way RW dive and realize that the 4-way is 500 feet below the planned break-off altitude. Do you track for the same amount of altitude and pull 500 feet low?, or track less and pull on time? I am going to un-ass in my most efficient track, then pull at around the same altitude. 5. You are climbing out after another group and you notice that a jumper in the group ahead of you, which is half-way through their climb-out, has their cutaway pillow folded under their main lift web. The aircraft is a twin otter and there are people between you and this jumper. How far ahead? I would holler to someone and try and stop their count. If I were in the next group and was not doing anything of consequence (like freeflying), I might just dive down and untuck the guy's handle for him. If I were too far back in the plane, I would just hope that the guy had a clean opening. 6. Same scenario as the one above, except instead of the reserve pillow folded under, the jumper's BOC handle is tucked completely into the pouch. Same as above. I would holler LOUDLY, and then assist if I were in a position to do so. 7. On the normal main you jump, a steering line breaks on opening? At 1,500 ft? At 1,000 ft? At 500 ft? Nowadays, on opening I would try and clear the other brake before my main spun up on me. If successful, I would land it on rears. I would also land on rears from any of the other altitudes mentioned. While I may not take my rear-riser landings to a full stop on most occasions, I always transition my hands to the rears at around 150/200 feet. I keep them there until I decide to either flare with toggles or just keep rear risering. 8. The first group is climbing out and you notice that a tandem Instructor, all set to exit, has forgotten to attach one of the passenger's upper harness attachment hooks? I scream at the moron LOUDLY and try to get him to stop. I doubt I would try and fly down to try and hook up the other attachment since I know that one hook will suffice. You can bet your ass I would unload on that person once he was on the ground, unhooked, and the passenger was out of earshot. There is no cause for this to happen. It reminds me of the person who left with only the two hip attachments hooked up. The passenger was fine, but this was a HORRIBLE failure of following basic procedure. 9. In a Cessna 182 on jump run, you will be the person spotting and just before you open the door you see the jumper in the back of the airplane push their reserve pin out of the loop, firing their reserve pilot chute into the back of the airplane? Yell "pilot chute" and control the canopy. Everyone lands with the plane. That is our SOP here at Raeford and at both military clubs. 10. On short final, you see another canopy coming directly at you. You neither of you do anything you will collide at about 30 ft. Who was following the correct flight path? Either way, I would throw a hard carve and get out of the way. Once on the ground safely, we would both talk it out along with the S&TA or whoever was watching. Someone is ALWAYS watching. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,434 #46 January 8, 2003 >Imagine the guy goes out the door with only one hook done... how >does he get stable? Like normal. You can get a tandem stable with BOTH upper hooks undone - it's been done, unfortunately. >The one hook may keep the passenger attached but i cant see that >they would possibly be able to land it in any way safely . . . Adam landed a tandem like that safely, with just one upper hook connected - no laterals, even. Fortunately the passenger was an experienced jumper with a backup rig on; they were trying a tandem Mr. Bill. After exit they could not disconnect that one upper B-12. The canopy wanted to turn but was controllable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,434 #47 January 8, 2003 >If the jumper with the dislodged main pin happens to comply to >your "pull" signal, didn't you just kill him and the cameraman? If you stop the dive, fly to the other person, and give him a pull signal, then the cameraman is going to see that. At that point, the jumper is going to wave off and pull like normal. The cameraman will see that, too. He has a good vantage point. >Wouldn't it be better to just wave off, which would also signal the >cameraman that it's time to pull? That means you're about to pull. If I had a problem with my pin, and I saw someone wave off, I'd probably turn and track - thus compounding my problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,434 #48 January 8, 2003 >Every set of 'standard rules' has an exception. "Pulling stable" is not >enough. I can be perfectly stable on my head, where deploying my > reserve would likely shred both the reserve and my spinal chord. I think everyone in skydiving understands that the 'pull stable' part of the 3 freefall priorities refers to being on your belly. >Even should I find myself at 1,000 feet, I would take the time to go > belly, first. Not to "get stable", but to slow down. At head down speeds at 1000 feet, you have about 3 seconds to impact, and about a second to open a canopy if you want to live. Not even a cypres may give you a reserve in time, as cypreses were not designed for speeds in excess of about 150mph. Opening at those speeds may well break your back, but delaying at all will kill you for sure. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #49 January 8, 2003 As a somewhat camera flyer I always tell my groups that when they break I'm pulling in place, at 5000 or 4500 feet my obligation to them is done and I'm pulling soon if they are done or not. If someone breaks at 8k, I'd probally end up doing nothing, but I'd be looking at the jumpers a lot closer and I'd like to think I'd see it. I've see a PC come out of an ROL except for the last about 1 inch and moved fast from on top to a side view. If the LO calls for a break, the rest of the group should break it down too, thus if someone see something bad, call the break, get the lo's attention and split. Kicking the legs too is a nice break signal if the LO is docked on them.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,434 #50 January 8, 2003 >Then, stand there and get dead in anyone's ass who did other than > the pre-declared landing. Look out - he may well say "Dude, I was on the four-way who got out first, and normal pattern here is land into the wind." Your load organizer may not be his load organizer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
