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flyuphi99

cutaway charges for rented gear

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What about the lost revenue if the rig does not have a canopy in it by the weekend.

$35 rental + $20 per jump ticket= $55 per jump. The rig would be jumped???15 times a weekend.. That’s $825 in revenue the DZ is out… Look for you shit next time, or pay quietly



I'd be mor inclined to believe that a judge would look at the DZ's published cost for renting a rig for a day and apply that cost to the number of days out of serive. That's probably going to be significantly lower than $825.

-Blind
"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

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I happened to be at the drop zone on the day this particular incident occured and on the same load! It started with this B licenced individual not useing her own brand new gear because there was not an available packer to pack it for her! The individual did not stick to the jump plan of pulling at the altitude she was going to pull at but rather 500 ft lower (she thinks) indicateing she did loose altitude awareness and seemed fixated on the ground. The inability of this person to properly access what happend both for this incident and any future incidents is an indication that it may be in her best interest not to participate in this sport. Lastly the indivual did not offer to go look for - or even to HELP find the lost equipment as she did not have time to do so both before and after the price of the equiptment was given to her. I don't think this was a customer service issue at all on the DZ's part but rather a complete lack of respect and understanding of the incident as a whole on the part of the individual. No thanks to her, the main was found by the staff of the DZ the very next morning.

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Would this even be a question if they had borrowed your gear?



No, but the big differnce here is that the organisation renting out equipment is a bussiness. A reserve is normal expected use for a renting company, it should be their risk. When I borrow someone's rig, it's a favor, although an insurrence company would say it's the risk of the owner, I would pay everything.

On another note, I've read this person didn't take care of the equipment, not even taking the time to search for anything. That being the case she or he should pay double.
The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

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YOU are soley responsible for YOUR skydive



So if I read you correctly - You are saying even if the DZ packer left the slider all the way down, and then closed up the bag and let you jump it - BAM - slammer - and the main blows up and you cut it away - Still you have to pay for it.

That doesn't make alot of common sense does it?

What if the packer had something to be disgruntled about - did it on purpose - Is that your responsibility as well?
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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YOU are soley responsible for YOUR skydive



So if I read you correctly - You are saying even if the DZ packer left the slider all the way down, and then closed up the bag and let you jump it - BAM - slammer - and the main blows up and you cut it away - Still you have to pay for it.

That doesn't make alot of common sense does it?

What if the packer had something to be disgruntled about - did it on purpose - Is that your responsibility as well?



Pack it yourself if you don't want to take responsibility for someone else's packjob. If you jump it, it's your responsibility - regardless of who built, assembled, packed, or pin checked it.

Grow up people. If you can't accept responsibility for 100% of your skydive - from the aircraft to the gear you jump to the actions or inactions of others - you need to take up bowling and leave the dropzone for those of us who accept the fact that shit happens.

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So if I read you correctly - You are saying even if the DZ packer left the slider all the way down, and then closed up the bag and let you jump it - BAM - slammer - and the main blows up and you cut it away - Still you have to pay for it.

That doesn't make alot of common sense does it?

What if the packer had something to be disgruntled about - did it on purpose - Is that your responsibility as well?



Yes. Should have packed it yourself.

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Please note that this thread was started by a jumper who has well over 100 jumps and owns their own gear. This person doesn't know how to pack and wanted to make the sunset load which was on a less than ten minute call at the time, and decided to jump a rental rig instead.



I'm not sure if this was meant as a reply to my post, but nothing in my post disagrees with what you wrote. My point was that it is entirely different to not hold a student at fault for any lost gear.
An experienced jumper should be heads up enough to look out for the main / freebag, should help search for the missing gear, and should pay for any gear that is not found - same as they would if it were their own rig they were jumping!

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Why is it some treat our dz's like family and friends and expect that treatment in return until money is involved?




Riiiighhht. Cause I see soooo many people doing free 100 hours on the aircraft, or holding bake sales to pay for the new engines........:D
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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Yup. It's a business. We don't treat them like family, and we get mad when they charge retail for gear, and post about the ridiculous prices on dz.com.

If you are "entitled" to luxury treatment, then you pay luxury prices. And walking back with your rig and not having enough time to look for the cutaway main you didn't want to learn how to pack is luxury treatment.

Sometimes I miss the days when packers weren't universal. If you wanted to skydive, you had to learn stuff. It's not that damn hard.

Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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I am sorry but this person OMHO is responsible for whatever they agreed to in the waiver. If it says you will replace the gear then replace it! If the waiver says she can replace it with "like gear" then go out and buy stuff that compares. If it says new gear then they have to replace it with new gear.

If you borrow my rig and lose something, you are going to get me new stuff to replace it! Plan and simple. I would do the same if I lost somebodies stuff!

I can't believe that they don't want to replace what they lost! Doens't matter who packed it. They jumped it. They are responsible. You rent one of our rigs you sign a waiver that says if you get it dirty you pay, if you lose it you pay, if you break it you pay! We will take your credit card number and charge it right away if you don't take care of it. If you go out and rent a car and lose it, do you think the rental comp[any is going to let you buy them a POS car to replace it? No you are going to get them a new one. to think that the Gear store or School that rented this should not try and get there money back is insane. You people think that dealers get things at huge discounts are WRONG!!!!!! There is no money in selling canopies. I would rather sell T-shirts all day long. Even a big gear store like Square 1 pays a lot of money for demo canopies.

I don't know what DZ this happened at. They are losing revenue because of the lost parts. How do they make that money up? Everyday that rig is down is lost money to them. Should they make this person buy gear that is really cheap and charge her for the money they have lost on not being able to rent it to others?

Give it up, pay them there money. You used it, you didn't follow it down. You didn't want to pack it. Nobody made this person rent gear. Nobody said you had to jump the pack job they gave you. Don't be lazy, pack your own shit! I mean hell they give her the pack job for free anyway. Most places won't even do that for you! You rent one of our rigs, you will get it not hooked up. you either pay a rigger 3.00 for the hook up and 6.00 for the pack job or do it yourself! IT's not hard to do and if you have 200 jumps and don't know how to do that you have issues anyway!
Dom


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If you crashed a hire car you wouldn't expect to pay for a replacement would you?



Ummm. Yes, if you rent a car and crash it, you are responsible for the full replacement cost of the car. You have a choice at the time of rental to buy additional insurance.

If you rent a car and the wheel falls off just after the engine drops out and the tank explodes you are still responsible for replacing the vehicle. Read a rental agreement sometime, you are responsible for EVERYTHING.



Soooo, you rent a car, the brakes fail and you crash??? It's your fault cause you didn't bring a mechanic with you to the lot to check the car before hand? You should pay for all damages??

I don't think so.

Michael

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Please note that this thread was started by a jumper who has well over 100 jumps and owns their own gear. This person doesn't know how to pack



Over 100 jumps means the jumper must have a license. Don't you have to learn to pack to get your license????? How the hell can you NOT know how to pack with that many jumps????

Jump
Scars remind us that the past is real

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So if I read you correctly - You are saying even if the DZ packer left the slider all the way down, and then closed up the bag and let you jump it - BAM - slammer - and the main blows up and you cut it away - Still you have to pay for it.



Yep. As a licenced jumper you'd be the one who put the rig on your back. This all falls under jumper and personal responsibility. It's stupid to blame the pilot for a bad spot....same for a packer.

The requirements for a license are that you be able to spot, self jumpmaster, and pack.
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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YOU are soley responsible for YOUR skydive



So if I read you correctly - You are saying even if the DZ packer left the slider all the way down, and then closed up the bag and let you jump it - BAM - slammer - and the main blows up and you cut it away - Still you have to pay for it.

That doesn't make alot of common sense does it?

What if the packer had something to be disgruntled about - did it on purpose - Is that your responsibility as well?



Yes, If you put the rig on and jump out of plane with it you take all responsibility for the rig and the jump. I would hope a packer wouldn't do something like that on purpose. You do take on all liability, If you don't like it don't jump it.

I know many rental rigs require that the last pack job of the day needs to be done by a staff packer. If you get a rig fresh off the rack and you don't trust the pack job you can always open it up and pack it yourself or watch a packer redo it (paying the packing fee). It seems a bit over the top to be this anal on a rental rig but you really don't know what you are getting. I have heard stories where people dump and have a MUCH smaller canopy over their heads because someone told them a different size was in the container. The point is; You are the only one responsible for your skydive and your safety. If you rely on other people to ensure your safety you also need to absolve them of any responsibility. if you don't know, double check you can never be too safe.

Don't blame someone else for your lack of safety

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Soooo, you rent a car, the brakes fail and you crash??? It's your fault cause you didn't bring a mechanic with you to the lot to check the car before hand? You should pay for all damages??

I don't think so.

Michael



Read your rental agreement, yes you pay all damages. I'm sure you can attempt to sue the rental car company. You'll need to prove that they intentionally gave you a broken car. They can always claim 'The brakes were working when they drove off the lot'. Test the brakes before you drive off the lot. I have turned rental cars back in because I didn't like the slow leak in the tire or the nasty grinding brake noise. They gave me another rental, no big deal

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So if I read you correctly - You are saying even if the DZ packer left the slider all the way down, and then closed up the bag and let you jump it - BAM - slammer - and the main blows up and you cut it away - Still you have to pay for it.

That doesn't make alot of common sense does it?

What if the packer had something to be disgruntled about - did it on purpose - Is that your responsibility as well?
<<

Do not use a packer like that.

Skydiving is a VERY personal and individual sport. No packjob is perfect, and even if it were, you still might have a malfunction. You take that risk EVERY time you leave the airplane. It is important that you understand that the ultimate responsibility for your skydive is with you, and that someday YOU might be asked to pay the ultimate price. Any attempt to shift responsibility to a packer for a mal that happened while you were wearing the gear is ridiculous. Now, if a packer intentionally f***s up a packjob, then in my mind that is attempted murder. But I do not think we are really talking about that.


My take on this whole issue is that when you borrow your buddy's gear or anyone else's, you accept the responsibility to return it in exactly the same condition as it was borrowed, less however many jumps your buddy said you could use it for.

I do agree with people who feel a little differently when they are getting charged $25 per jump for rental gear. When I was renting gear, I certainly thought that $25 included the use of both parachutes should I need them. Fortunately, I never did so this never came up. Perhaps if more dz's had a stated policy on rental gear, these misunderstandings would not come up. If I had been informed that I would have to pay for a reserve pack job if I used the reserve, I probably would have still rented the gear, and I would have been less shocked when I was asked to pay it if I had used the reserve. With regard to a lost main, I think the jumper is on the hook. If I use the reserve, I have put what could be considered normal wear and tear on the rig. If I lose it, that is not normal wear and tear.

Anyway, I think a lot of grousing about post-cutaway responsibilities of jumpers on rental gear would go away if those responsibilities were made clear before the jump.

The last time I borrowed a rig, the friend who loaned it to me told me that if I had a mal, canopies were easier to replace than friends and I should not think twice about cutting away just because it was his rig. I was a little surprised at that and told him not to worry. He also told me that if I did cut away and lost any of his sh!t, he would want me to replace it. I was a little surprised that he needed to say that, too, and I told him not to worry.

Point is, even if I had a different understanding of my responsibilities as a borrower, his 30 sec. conversation with me cleared it up.

Brent

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www.jumpelvis.com

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So if I read you correctly - You are saying even if the DZ packer left the slider all the way down, and then closed up the bag and let you jump it - BAM - slammer - and the main blows up and you cut it away - Still you have to pay for it.

That doesn't make alot of common sense does it?



Sure it does. First of all... If you can't pack your own main then you shouldn't be jumping! How a person has over 200 jumps and doesn't know how to pack is beyond me. Last time I checked it was a licsence requirment. That is a big problem with jumpers. Gotta have a packer.. how am I going to jump if I don't have a packer. Pack the damn thing yourself! I use a packer whenever I can.......but I do know how to pack and can do it quickly. Using "the packer did it" is a lame excuse. I have had a packer hook my rig up wrong. I didn't pay him for the hook up. I got a free pack job out of it since he offered to repack it. Good service he did it wrong and I wouldn't let him just reattache the rings. I wanted it redone from the start. If I had jumped that pack job and didn't check my gear and had a mal, I would have been pissed at the packer for sure, but it would have been my fault for not checking his work.
Dom


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Please note that this thread was started by a jumper who has well over 100 jumps and owns their own gear. This person doesn't know how to pack



Over 100 jumps means the jumper must have a license.



That's not universal. I have 131 and have never had a liscense.

-Blind
"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

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Grow up people. If you can't accept responsibility for 100% of your skydive - from the aircraft to the gear you jump to the actions or inactions of others - you need to take up bowling and leave the dropzone for those of us who accept the fact that shit happens.


Yea...what she said ;)

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I would not pay a cent. The DZO knows that there is a posibility his equipment could got lost or damaged. The price to me includes insurance, and no one made them rent that equipment. It is done so the DZ can make a buck, and keep alot of people current till they get their oun gear.



So you dont feel you owe the DZ any cash???? WOW I hope I never meet anyone like you that needs to borrow my rig!!! I almost never say no when someone needs to borrow my rig. I do however let them know "you lose it or break it....you buy it"!!!
Why should it be any different for the owner of the gear if it just so happens to be the DZO???? huh...huh....tell me that!!!!
I am so sour with some freaking attitudes I run across these days it makes me SICK!!!
SO....Put that is your BAG and JUMP IT!!! :o<>

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Hey Gus just jumped into the middle of this thread, but. In the US if you rent/hire a car you are responsible for damage and loss of a vehicle. You can elect to buy their insurance, very expensive. Or use you owne if you have it. Many young drivers have a hard time renting a car because they mush have a credit card and proof of insurance. Also if you wreck a rented car they will "try" to charge you for loss of use. But you only have to pay for what was lost. ie used car, used main. Not new. :)

Don't run out of altitude and experience at the same time...

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What's the difference between renting a rig and jumping a DZ tandem rig, that was essentially rented by the passenger. Any of you TM's going to pay for a lost tandem main cause you chopped it. Not me. I don't expect that the passenger is going to pay up or be asked to for that matter. The liability should be built into the rental price.

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