Nightingale 0 #1 December 20, 2003 When I was on AFF, they switched me from a 260 to a 240, and I didn't even notice. Also didn't notice a huge difference between the 240 and 230. Wingloading: 260 = .61 240 = .66 230 = .69 210 = .76 My landings on the 230 were PLFs. Not dangerous landings, but not tiptoe landings either. Now, my dilemma: If I want to jump regular rental gear at Elsinore, I have to jump a 210. They don't have 230s. Perris had the 230 Spectre, which I really liked, and I've pretty much decided that I want a spectre, because I really like the openings. If I want to jump anything larger than a 210 at elsinore, I have to jump the student gear. I feel more comfortable jumping at Elsinore, because the atmosphere's a lot more low key. I've had some of my instructors at perris tell me that downsizing from a wingloading of .69 to .76 should be fine. I've had others tell me to stay with the .69 (spectre 230) for now... The ones that saw my last few landings seem pretty equally split... I hear "with that wingloading, you should be fine..." and also "well, you're not standing up your landings on the 230, so maybe you should stick with it for a while..." And no, I can't do everything on Billvon's downsizing list. I can't find a school willing to teach me how to do it, and I'm not going to try to figure it out from something I read online. I've called both Perris and Elsinore, and asked if they offer canopy coaching to students. I said "I feel my freefall skills are okay for my level, but I'd like to learn more about the canopy. I know I have a lot more to learn about freefall, but I feel my main weakness right now is canopy. All I can do with it is turn left, turn right, go straight and flare. I can do this with toggles and rear risers, but that's ALL I can do. Is there any way I can pay a coach to teach me more about canopy?" Both schools said "take a canopy class after you get your license." Its scaring me that I have this wonderful canopy above my head that is saving my life, but I know almost nothing about how to control it. I don't want to be paying to jump student gear for my next eleven jumps! I want to practice packing, which I can't do on the student gear, and I'm uncomfortable packing for anyone other than myself. I like packing my own gear. um... Billvon? Skybytch? opinions? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMonkey 0 #2 December 20, 2003 Spectre 230 - where have I heard that before ... Anyhoo, I'd be surprised if there wasn't an instructor at either dz that'd be willing to go through some things with you.____________________ Say no to subliminal messages Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RoadRash 0 #3 December 20, 2003 Quote I don't want to be paying to jump student gear for my next eleven jumps! I want to practice packing, which I can't do on the student gear, and I'm uncomfortable packing for anyone other than myself. I like packing my own gear. um... Billvon? Skybytch? opinions? In terms of canopies, I will leave that to the pros, but I had to rent gear for all of my jumps so far and though it is expensive, it is better than buying something that you may not feel comfortable with. I also learned how to pack on a 235 (though I was jumping a 190), so learning how to pack only requires a rig...And I know how you feel about packing for others. I have had some sweet openings from my packjobs, but then again, I have had some that caused me to pull a 180 before it was completely deployed.~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Fly the friendly skies...^_^...})ii({...^_~... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #4 December 20, 2003 My advice - having not seen you fly and land a canopy - would be to go ahead and try the 210 at Elsinore. If you're worried about the difference in speed, wait to jump it until there's a 5 mph breeze or so. I don't think you'll have a problem landing a 210 in no winds though - you may even find that your landings _improve_ under the 210. And you're still loading it light enough that you can not flare perfectly and still walk away from the landing. See if you can get someone with a video camera to film your landing(s) on it, then discuss your flare with one of your instructors too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #5 December 20, 2003 I've tried the video thing... but every single time I have someone video my landings to see what I'm doing wrong, I have a tip toe perfect landing! LOL. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airman210 0 #6 December 20, 2003 I would make sure you stand up, on multiple jumps in a row, before downsizing. When was the last time you heard of someone getting hurt because they had too big of a canopy? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #7 December 20, 2003 At your weight, don't worry at all, go to the 210.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #8 December 20, 2003 At your weight, you won't be feel any difference between a 230 and a 210. This is one objection I've had to Bill's list - it doesn't adequately allow for students to learn on a reasonable size canopy. While I firmly believe in Bills list for experienced jumpers, it doens't work for students. For now, you can safely ignore it. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DeNReN 0 #9 December 21, 2003 As a fellow student I cant really comment on the downsizing......however...as most have said....230 to a 210 isnt a huge difference at your w/l...and may even help your landings with a little extra speed to help generate lift during flare.(as always...your instructors and you know best.) My question is....How come you havent been playing with the canopy at altitude?????.......practicing flat turns...front riser turns..toggle sprials...riser sprials..canopy stalls.. etc etc?????...learning how it reacts and having a blast scaring yourself......as a student you open at a decient altitude...with plenty of time to play and get a feel for the canopy.....have some fun...scare yourself a little(before your hard deck)....play play play.....your confindence will will increase and so will the quality of your landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #10 December 21, 2003 So, Elsinore will allow you to rent and jump their gear even though you don't yet have an A License and all of your jumps so far have been at Perris?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #11 December 21, 2003 No, my last two jumps were at Elsinore. They had me do a coach jump as my first jump there. Perris had been letting me jump the square1 gear because I'd finished AFF, and from talking to the Elsinore folks, it seemed as though their policy was the same. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #12 December 21, 2003 I haven't been practicing flat turns because I haven't had the opportunity to learn how to do them yet. This is why I was asking the schools about canopy coaching. I'm not going to try to learn how to do something from someone else's words on the internet. Things you read that someone else has written can be easily misinterpreted. When I get someone to physically show me how to do one of those turns, I will try one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #13 December 21, 2003 Up until about .8 or so, you are pretty safe in downsizing if you have basic control of the canopy (i.e. can land with a fair amount of accuracy, flare at the right altitude, stand up etc.) When you are lighter than that loading it's difficult to get a feel for how to control the canopy well, and a loading of .8 is still pretty conservative provided you have the very basic canopy skills needed to land a larger canopy. However, that's not to say there's not a lot you can learn under the 230 - indeed, some of the items in the list are a lot easier to learn under a larger canopy. Flare turns, for example. At a loading of .69 to 1, you won't get any significant planeout. However, you can definitely set up 45 degrees off the windline, flare, and as you're flaring, turn the final 45 degrees into the wind. Learning that will almost guarantee you won't "reach for the ground" and have that very common problem. The advantage of going to the 210 will be better penetration and a more immediate feedback as to what you're doing with the canopy. The increase in risk is pretty slight; getting that coaching will give you an even greater advantage if you do decide to downsize. (warning-story follows) I started on a DC-5, a monster 5 cell 300+ sq ft canopy that no one jumps any more. Then I went to the higher performance Manta, then a Pursuit 215, then a PD190, then a Sabre 150. Each time I progressed I was happy to get away from the old barge I had been jumping before, the massive old canopy that I could barely turn. Then as I got into BASE I started using a Manta for some of my jumps. And I realized that it wasn't as much of a slug as I had once thought. It was possible to get a good flare, to turn the thing 180 degrees at 50 feet if I had to, to get some speed up before landing etc. It wasn't that the canopy had gotten better, I had just never been taught to fly the Manta well. All I ever got was "flare at 5-10 feet, and whatever you do, don't turn below 50 feet!" Moral of this story - education is really key. It will help you land the 230 if you stick with that, and it will help on the 210 if you want to go to that. The 210 is a very small increase in risk, but errors that made you not stand up the 230 will likely be amplified. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #14 December 21, 2003 QuoteThis is why I was asking the schools about canopy coaching. Don't know if you can afford to travel to FL, but Scott Miller (who teaches a course in Deland) only requires that a jumper be self-jumpmastering to do his course. The less expensive, right now option - grab an instructor next time you're at the dz and have them explain and demonstrate flat turns to you, then go do a hop n pop and play with them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #15 December 21, 2003 Are all the canopies you've jumped so far student canopies? Ie detuned, real long steering lines, not easily stall-able? If so, you'll notice a difference all right going to a 210 non-student canopy. Not so much because of the size difference, but because the canopy will handle way different. I went from a Manta/Skymaster 280 to a Skymaster 230 (didn't notice any difference, WL still next to nothing). Then a Merit 190 (WL 0,78) at 50 jumps. Holy sh*t!!! The 190 in and of itself wasn't the problem I think, tho I believe a Spectre 190 or 210 would've been more appropriate for me at the time. But a Merit is much more agile (tapered 9cell, hybrid F111/ZP, with the typical french control range ie short!). The first 6 jumps I went head over heels a couple times . When first landing the Merit: Wow!!! Heeelp! Where's the f*ng BRAKES on this thing! (A Merit KEEPS flying) After I learned to land it right tho (took me 12 jumps), the Spectre 190 I jumped next was easy in comparison... The reasoning behind putting me on the Merit 190 (there's a Merit 210, Spectre 210 and Spectre 190 also) was: We wouldn't want you to think a 'real' canopy was as slow as a student canopy.' Uh huh. Well it scared me a bit.... I'm a wuss... It was 3 things at the same time: conversion ripcord to throwout, no more detuned lines, and a 'real' canopy. A bit much for me at least... Anyway I'm rambling on, what I wanted to say was I don't think the WL will be a problem for you (not knowing you tho), but if it's your first non-detuned-canopy, be careful. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
meltdown 0 #16 December 21, 2003 This is my experience only (as a fellow low timer), so take it for that. BUT, when I was on student/rental gear, I couldn't tell the difference between the 190, 200 or 210 they had for rent. I jumped the smallest thing available. I weigh 165 out the door (probably 170 on those rigs). It wasn't until I demo'd a 170 that I noticed any discernable difference, and that's what I'm jumping now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #17 December 21, 2003 No... I've had several jumps on square1 demo gear. Spectre 230. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ripper0289 0 #18 December 21, 2003 Sounds a little familiar to me. My first jump was a 260 sq ft canopy, then I got downsized to a 230, the only way I knew was by looking at my logbook. I went from a wing loading of ~0.77 to a wing loading of 0.87. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #19 December 22, 2003 Kris, I'm having a hard time with the canopy school thing. You dont need an official school to learn basic canopy control. From all I hear, Elsinore is a realy friendly place... There must be a few instructors you trust who can guide you on how to perform the few maneuvres you want to learn.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyyhi 0 #20 December 22, 2003 QuoteElsinore is a realy friendly place Not only is it real friendly, they do have a canopy control course. . . Here is the link. . . http://www.skydiveelsinore.com/teams/coaching.html# You can do a single jump option or do the whole course. . .I will be taking this as soon as I get my A. I hear it is a real good program. . .________________________________________ Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ FGF #6 Darcy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #21 December 22, 2003 I'm going to take it, when I get my A. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyyhi 0 #22 December 22, 2003 Kewl Kris. . .by the way, I hope we actually run into each other at the DZ one of these days. . .always good to meet your sky sisters. . .________________________________________ Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ FGF #6 Darcy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #23 December 22, 2003 lol... yup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
helldog 0 #24 December 24, 2003 Hey, I'll be visiting Elsinore after christmas (flexible on the days. I had some similar problems learning to land my new canopy. (dz elevation 4300'). You'd be amazed how more experience under the 210 will translate to better landings. A canopy control course would be excellent if you can make it to one. But there should be some old hand at the DZ willing to give you some coaching on landings (if not come see us in el paso plenty of coaches willing to help you out.) Video taping your landings is a big help... you often find what you think your doing and what your actually doing are 2 different things. I'd be more than happy to film the landing for you. (bring a digital 8 tape if you want a copy) just PM online. Blue ones Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #25 December 24, 2003 I'm hoping to be out at elsinore on saturday the 27th. I was thinking sunday, but its supposed to rain then. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
