should dz make tandem mandatory first jump?

[jlmiracle 7]

Tandems are an excellent way to introduce skydiving to someone with both freefall and canopy ride.

We loosely require (basicially if they insist on AFF that's what we do) Tandem.

Here are a couple examples why I believe in the Tandem first.

1. Guy comes out insists on AFF. I tried to explain sensory overload and what not to him but he insisted on AFF. He completely brain locked through the whole skydive (JM's had to pull for him). The guy works in the same building I do. I saw him the next week and he said I'm really sorry I didn't listen to you, I understand now why you have people do a tandem first. He has never jumped again.

2. Macho man shows up, wants to start and graduate in 2 weeks. He sits through the ground school but is going to do a "working" Tandem first. They landed, I asked the guy what he thought and he just looked at me and said "I can't belive you people do this" and left - never to be seen again.

What people THINK they want is not the same as KNOWING what they want.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[cornishe 0]

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Clearly you are not a freefall instructor.

Yes, clearly I am not. As my profile says NO under AFF instructor. What other clues did you use to figure that one out, Captain Obvious.

And clearly, the statistics of AFF student death/injury show the method of instruction to be safe.

Part of AFF instruction is to asses the student's readiness. As an AFF Instructor with 4000+ jumps, I would bet you do not take a student up who is white in the face during ground training.

99% of the time I would bet an experienced AFF Instructor will have an idea of the degree a student will screw up in the air and if he/she is a candidate for the jump. If during/after ground instruction there is doubt, the Instructor can choose to not allow the student in the air. That's the job, assesment as well as instruction.

Abbie Mashaal
Skydive Idaho
Snake River Skydiving
TandemBASE

[jlmiracle 7]

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Part of AFF instruction is to asses the student's readiness. As an AFF Instructor with 4000+ jumps, I would bet you do not take a student up who is white in the face during ground training.

99% of the time I would bet an experienced AFF Instructor will have an idea of the degree a student will screw up in the air and if he/she is a candidate for the jump. If during/after ground instruction there is doubt, the Instructor can choose to not allow the student in the air. That's the job, assesment as well as instruction.

Reading bad students isn't all the easy.

We had a student that was EXCELLENT on the ground. super relaxed, good body position (for the ground), and could do the dive flow in his sleep. Once he left the airplane - he lost his little mind. He dearched, kicked and flailed and never pulled. We tried doing a working tandem just where he would have to pull and he didn't. He really really wants to skydive (or that's what he keeps telling us), but its really not for him.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[cornishe 0]

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Reading bad students isn't all the easy.

We had a student that was EXCELLENT on the ground. super relaxed, good body position (for the ground), and could do the dive flow in his sleep. Once he left the airplane - he lost his little mind. He dearched, kicked and flailed and never pulled. We tried doing a working tandem just where he would have to pull and he didn't. He really really wants to skydive (or that's what he keeps telling us), but its really not for him.

Judy

Sounds like the 1% factor to me... As I'm not an instructor, you tell me... how often does that happen. From what I've seen its the minority.

Abbie Mashaal
Skydive Idaho
Snake River Skydiving
TandemBASE

[jlmiracle 7]

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Sounds like the 1% factor to me... As I'm not an instructor, you tell me... how often does that happen. From what I've seen its the minority.

That is one example. There are more. It does also work the other way though too.

Had a guy that couldn't remember the dive flow, wouldn't arch very well on the ground but we practiced and practiced. I tried to simplify it and told him don't sweat it, I will prompt you, if you forget. We had the sweetest exit, and he didn't forget a thing, was altitude aware, relaxed and did an excellent job, but then again he never finished AFF after he got laid off and divorced.

With the personal experiences I have had, I believe a Tandem is still the best way to introduce someone to skydiving.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[Schmookeeg 0]

I have the solution, and it is pretty.

Mandatory Giant Springs on their feet.

Also, in case they're inverted due to brainlock, giant springs on their head.

Also, let's wrap them in bubblewrap just in case, and then some springs around their body. They'll look like a porcupine that just came out of a jericurl hair salon.

You might ask "but, how would that be any fun? They can't see!"

Two giant springs on their eye-sockets. They can look out the hollow part of the spring. Simple.

b0iNgY!

[scottjaco 0]

I think I would have been less stressed had I done a Tandem first but I wanted to walk away feeling like I had learned some skills.

99% of Tandems will never jump again. I find that annoying.

More first time students who do AFF return to complete their training. This would suggest that AFF has deeper impact. DZ's would make more money if they ditched Tandems.

[flypunk 0]

The sensory overload of jumping out of a plane and into thin air is enough for any normal human being to be overwhelmed if on top of that you add that you still have to remember 8 hours of class, there is a lot of things that can be forgotten.

My personal preference would be tandem but Ive seen both methods work succesfully. Stuff can go wrong in both methods,

As far as believing that all you can get from AFF is a broken leg or minor injury if your instructors do everything right, there are a lot of things that go wrong even if the instructors do everything flawlessly.

A student that forgets to pull and goes into a sit and then almost head down in fetal position 2 seconds after the instructor pulled him. Now you have someone wrapped in canopy lines which needs to remember emergency procedures, when he didn't even remember to check his altimeter or pull.

A student that opened with linetwist and rode it into the ground while in a turn and while facing backwards.

Students tha hit obstacles in landing on an off landing or a no radio landing.

All these things have the potential to get someone killed, and there have been cases where the students get away from their instructors and damn good instructors too, and go low till the cypress fires... now as far as relying on a cypress, please remember that its just like any other electronic man made device and its not flawless.

and in both events skydiving is not 100% safe, but having the chance to get the sensory overload out of the way without having to save your life as well seems like a good idea.

now for a real figure of how often does freezing happen, out of my class for AFF 1, 4 or 5 out of 8 froze, didnt pull or pulled and held the pilot chute in their hands.

...

[loflyer 0]

Yeah, I agree with alot of the other replies, that doing a Tandem helps with the sensory overload of first time jumpers. I have also seen alot of "guys" do AFF, just for the reason mentioned in one of the replies about them being homo-phobic... But, making it "required", I don't agree with. Also, if the weight issue comes up, not that I see to many first time jumpers that are over the Tandem weight limit, but there has been a few & they were forced to do the Aff, & Just like someone else had mentioned, they never came back for Level 2. But anyway, that is my opinion.

Everyone have a great weekend, stay safe, & BLue skies...

[PhreeZone 15]

Scott, do you have any facts to back up that AFF returns more jumpers then a tandem does? It seems that out of all the methods Static line is the largest money maker for a DZ and it seems to have a decent retention level too. Out of AFF students I'm guessing 1/75-1/100 return for L2. I had 5 out of ~70 tandem students return for a second tandem in a summer. Static Line students I'd guess 1/50 jump again since they are able to jump for less $.

The Average tandem makes the DZ that charges ~$175 about $100 that has to be used for equipment replacement, airplane maintence, rent etc. A $235 AFF jump makes about $90 and its a lot more time consuming for everyone involved. A fun jumper ticket makes a DZ about $3. DZ's can't survive on funjumpers alone.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[kelpdiver 2]

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now for a real figure of how often does freezing happen, out of my class for AFF 1, 4 or 5 out of 8 froze, didnt pull or pulled and held the pilot chute in their hands.

I have a hard time accepting that as the norm. Hell, go over to Bonfire where virutally no one did a repeat on their AFF series! (yeah, sampling is different)
If even a tiny fraction of these freezers were bouncing, it would be a concern, but we're certainly not seeing that. To the AFF-Is who'd rather not do L1s - you can always vote with your feet. It doesn't happen without you guys.

I did a tandem in 95, and another in 2000. Last summer a girlfriend had been dying to go for a long time, so I set up a small group and decided I would do AFF this time. Had the place mandated tandems, I would have gone somewhere else. I had only intended to do the single jump again, but the feeling right after my chute deployed and the 2 AFFIs kept flying down was just fantastic, and way beyond how it felt in 95. It could be said that I did already have 2, but with 3 and 8 years of separation, I don't know that it contributed much.

[hookitt 0]

Who are you? Your online personna is certainly entertaining. <as expected, the post I was replying to was deleted>

Anyway, I don't wish to see tandems as mandatory, but as an AFF instructor it_would_be_nice if the student has made a prior tandem jump. AFF has put me in the most stressful situations I've ever encountered.



Knowing a student is about to do *absolutely nothing* to save his own life can sure put your mind in a strange place. There's no way to describe that feeling.

The closest I've been to a radical Level 2 dive was just a botched exit and body position through out the dive. The student was at least going to make an effort to perform the training objectives.

Tandem is the best way to introduce a person to skydiving but if they really want to do AFF on the first dive, then so be it.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[crutch 0]

***now for a real figure of how often does freezing happen, out of my class for AFF 1, 4 or 5 out of 8 froze, didnt pull or pulled and held the pilot chute in their hands. ***

You need to audit your instructors because ya'll are doing a piss poor job of teaching!

Don't require tandems, give people a choice!

blue skies,

art

[crutch 0]

Actually, the money works out about the same, the time spent earning the money though is exponentialy greater. Trust me, I keep the books!

blue skies,

art

[cornishe 0]

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Who are you? Your online personna is certainly entertaining. <as expected, the post I was replying to was deleted>
...
Tandem is the best way to introduce a person to skydiving but if they really want to do AFF on the first dive, then so be it.

Hi. I'm glad someone got to read it before it was deleted! My name is Abbie (consider it short for Abraham) and you can find me on the weekends at Skydive Taft, Skydive Elsinore, or Skydive California City. I tend to bounce around between them all.

To sum up most of my last post without getting deleted again...

I think this thread turned into an AFF vs. Tandem FJ battle which was not the original question. The question was whether Tandem FJ should be mandatory. I'm glad that we are in accord as to the fact that it should be a choice. That has been my point all along.

Cheers and blue ones.

Whoever read my deleted post... the other statement still stands.

Abbie Mashaal
Skydive Idaho
Snake River Skydiving
TandemBASE

[Greene 0]

Great post.

Enought said.

SGC

[hookitt 0]

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Whoever read my deleted post... the other statement still stands.

Whoever deleted it is just being nice, I would have banned you . I used the word entertaining because it is ... in a way,, but you sound kinda bitter or was that the taste of the mass amounts of lousy Folgers crystals?

===============

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Sounds like the 1% factor to me... As I'm not an instructor, you tell me... how often does that happen. From what I've seen its the minority.

In reference to what is quoted, I'd say much greater than 1%. What instructors can deal with, (or in some instances, get away with) can be huge!! Just because the instructor can keep a brand new skydiver parachute towards the sky, doesn't necessarily mean they haven't comepletly lost it.

As a Reserve side instructor, I've often locked the student into a controllable position so the main can do his job. As the Main instructor, fighting a student all the way down and forcing him to pull, is very much sensory overload on the students part. But hey, given the choice, I'd rather force them to pull, than do it for them.

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You've failed to mention that in order to die, the 2 AFF instructors need to fail at both recognizing a students abilities and their duties in the air to keep the student safe

That is a contradiction to your 1% comment. I certainly can't always tell who's going to freeze or panic in the air. But when they do, that's when the AFF instructors flying ability better come into play. When a student has "lost his little mind" ... It's very exciting. Unfortunately what you've seen on video is only a tiny bit of what instructors go through sometimes. The most radical skydives I've been on aren't on video. I sure wish they were because you'd understand very quickly why I'd prefer a new skydiver to have at least one tandem prior to being handed over to me.

I did a couple seasons of only AFF divesand the first jump instructor was fantastic, and still, every week was a new challenge.

Do any instructors disagree with any of that?

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[AndyAnderson 0]

Having Worked at DZ's That require tandems and DZ's that sell AFF as a first jump in the last year I have a very strong opinion.

The student who has a tandem experience ( even one with no extra training i.e. Arch, pull, landing pattern and landing) is a better student on level one than one who has never done a jump.

The DZ's wasting 6 to 8 hours of training to have a first jumper backout, overload, find out this is not for them, no pull and fail the level, not listen to the radio, be scared as this is their first plane ride ever or any other thing happen is trying to make money more than the DZ that insists on a tandem and has a better prepared student who passes more levels and in the long run spends less on their course. I agree those problems still happen to some students but a tandem first really does help and saves most students money.

Any one who thinks tandems have ruined skydiving or turned away anyone who really wants to start jumping is very misinformed and needs to spend a few more years on the DZ and will see how many more of the public will get exposed to skydiving and the video the first jumper took home.

Some DZ's only offer AFF as a first jump because they are afraid the customer will go to the competition who do not require a tandem. Which would you rather be a victim of.

Andy

[billvon 2,400]

>Any one who thinks tandems have ruined skydiving or turned away
> anyone who really wants to start jumping is very misinformed and
> needs to spend a few more years on the DZ and will see how many
> more of the public will get exposed to skydiving and the video the
> first jumper took home.

There are those of us who feel that having a large percentage of the general public involved in skydiving isn't such a good idea. Tandems can be a great way to make a first jump, especially if they are part of an integrated student program. But I don't think that "getting everyone exposed to skydiving" is a good goal, if preserving what's good about skydiving is your goal.

[billvon 2,400]

>should drop zones make first time jumpers do tandems.

Up to each DZ. I think any DZ that does require a tandem should make it part of the learning progression, with TLO's, performance criteria, debrief etc. both to help them along on their progression and to make it clear that skydiving is not a ride.

[AndyAnderson 0]

The profit from the one time tandem customers is what keeps the large multi otter DZ's in the black. I am sure the DZO's do not have any misconceptions about the majority of those those "students" coming back to do AFF. And I am also sure they want as many of the public to be exposed to this experience as possible. More tandems= lower prices and more aircraft for us to utilize and more open DZ's across the country and more money. Even if skydiving should be our own little select group.

[Krl1 0]

FWIW, Here's my story:

I've been literally dreaming of skydiving for years. I'm always by myself in the dream, jumping out over my childhood city and loving the shiz out of it.

Two years ago, I'm sitting on a plane going somewhere on vacation, and I read an article in a copy of Robb Report that someone left behind about a skydiving school that allows the choice of some kind of first-time jump where you actually freefall and land by yourself. I tell my wife that sounds way cooler than going tandem, and I would like to do it.

About a month ago, we decide to travel to L.A. to basically do nothing but go to Magic Mountain to ride roller coasters and drive around the coast. Two days later, I'm walking by a plasma TV playing The Transporter, and the lead character jumps out of a plane, and I say out loud, "That's it. I can probably skydive in California."

I search around the web and discover AFF and Perris. I him and haw a bit, but I sign up. We show up at Perris, and my wife (who couldn't have less interest in the idea) sits in on the ground course. By the end of ground training, we both have a much more focused picture of this endeavor I'd been thinking of for so long. My wife ALMOST goes for a tandem jump (realizing that there is "allot to remember" for AFF), but she decides, at the last minute, "I'm perfectly happy on the ground."

The ride up is pretty mellow. I'm fully aware that this is actually the shiz I've been dreaming of, and it's almost surreal. We go, I follow the steps, gag on
air pretty good and kick around some, but by 8K I chill out and actually look at the camera and give thumbs up. I lock on at 6K and pull on my own at 5K. Flying under a canopy is exactly like I dreamed. I'm assisted to a great landing via radio.

I had no idea jumping would affect me so deeply. I can't stop thinking about it, I practice what I learned everyday, I'm trying to learn all I can about the sport, and I intend on completing AFF.

I jumped because I had a choice of going AFF. I now understand the reasons why one would/should go tandem first, but I wouldn't change a thing about my choice. I think the choice is necessary.

Big Sky Blues,

B

[riggerrob 558]

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Since pay rates are terrible, I want nothing to do with that program.

Quite the mercenary . . .

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

When you compare Ontario pay rates with British Columbia pay rates, they I would have to be willing to work five or six extra hours at $1 per hour.
Hah!

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[SkydivingNurse 0]

I agree. I decided one day that I wanted to jump out of an airplane, I went, I did my FJC, got rained out and showed up two days later and did my first AFF. After my second jump I bought a full face helmet, which was a big investment considering the money I was spending on the jumps. A tandem would have been fun, but I somehow knew that I'd soon be hooked. No real need to tandem when I can pull my own chute, thanks.

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[cornishe 0]

ban me? well its good youre not in charge isnt it. zig heil.

bitter? no. Bored and online is the sentiment you can read between the lines.

there is no contraditon in my statements. 1%, refering to a minmal amount of disasters exactly corralates with the high number of things that I beleive need to go wrong for that to happen.

So, you've already said you still feel the FJC should be a choice, though you continue to argue how much better a Tandem first jump is. What keeps you from wanting to make it mandatory? This goes out to the rest of you Instructors reading these. If you beleive it should be MANDATORY, I would truly like to hear compelling reasons to why. I can currently only view this debate from the point of view of a new jumper who has never done a tandem.

Andy, sfebe, I see your points, but, do you think Tandem jumps should be MANDATORY before AFF?

How many of you instructors went tandem on your first jump? Aren't tandem jumps relatively new to the sport?

-A

Abbie Mashaal
Skydive Idaho
Snake River Skydiving
TandemBASE