should dz make tandem mandatory first jump?

[scottjaco 0]

Quote

Facts or did you make this up?

I don't have the computer print outs to support this.

If I did, we wouldn't be having this pleasent discussion.

[Ron 7]

Quote

Andy, sfebe, I see your points, but, do you think Tandem jumps should be MANDATORY before AFF?

I do.

It makes a better student.

Quote

How many of you instructors went tandem on your first jump?

I did.

Quote

Aren't tandem jumps relatively new to the sport?

If you consider 20+ years new...This shows how little you know about this sport.

Chill out and listen some...

You have Instructor after Instructor tell you something . Why do you refuse to listen?

Tandem students make a MUCH better transition to regular student.

Its more cost effective for BOTH student and DZ.

It teaches TONS in one jump.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

You say this:

Quote

More first time students who do AFF return to complete their training. This would suggest that AFF has deeper impact. DZ's would make more money if they ditched Tandems.

Then you say this:

Quote

I don't have the computer print outs to support this.

If I did, we wouldn't be having this pleasent discussion.

Why would you act like its a fact if you don't know?

I will grant you that most Tandems don't come back out...But most AFF or S/L students don't ever come back either...For most its a one time thing.

And from a personal view point...Being both an Instructor and a Tandem Master (Of which you are neither)...I would rather have a student do a "Working" Tandem first...Treat it like an AFF level one with TLO's.

I am very brash, and come accross like my opinion is correct...You do also. But I do have many ratings and years behind my opinions, you don't.

People are always telling me to "chill out"...I have been trying, I also have been trying to give you that same advice.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[pilotdave 0]

Quote

Quote

99% of Tandems will never jump again. I find that annoying.

More first time students who do AFF return to complete their training. This would suggest that AFF has deeper impact. DZ's would make more money if they ditched Tandems.

Facts or did you make this up?

In my experience, it is probably true that a higher percentage of first time AFFers finish training than first time tandemers. When I was president of a university club, we gave first timers the option. But I think scott's logic is extremely flawed. The people that finished their training started with AFF BECAUSE they planned to finish their training. Many people start AFF with the intention of getting licensed and only make one or two jumps. But there are a few people that know from day one that they will become a skydiver. And given the choice, they usually pick AFF (partly because that's what we recommended to people that wanted to get licensed).

So yes, I agree that more tandem first jump students never make a second jump than first time AFF students. But I think a DZ that ditched tandems in favor of ONLY AFF would be out of business very quickly. DZs would make more money if they required tandems. Which, in my opinion, is why some do.

Dave

[scottjaco 0]

Quote

But I think scott's logic is extremely flawed.

So yes, I agree that more tandem first jump students never make a second jump than first time AFF students.

Kinda sounds like a contradiction.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Quote

did a tandem in 95, and another in 2000. Last summer a girlfriend had been dying to go for a long time, so I set up a small group and decided I would do AFF this time. Had the place mandated tandems, I would have gone somewhere else.

I hate to break this to you...But you did TWO tandems....That could be why your AFF went so well.

3 and 8 years prior. They were non working tandems - I got a good ride, but did little else. A DZ that mandates an instructional tandem as the start of a AFP program probably wouldn't consider either jump adequete. My diving experience (depth/time awareness, calmess) may have been as helpful as my past in the air. Hard to tell. What I do know is that my dollars ($1200 for the 4 of us) would have gone elsewhere.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Tandem students do effect the "purity" of our sport.

I've always thought of it as cheating. Thrill without the responsibility or consequence. It attracts the wrong type of individual. Someone who wants to participate in a sport but do absolutely nothing to learn about it.

Which part of "jumping out of a perfectly good plane" are you glossing over here, Scott? Few people will take that leap on faith alone. Skydiving is a sport that requires a considerable time commitment, both up front and ongoing. Getting past the risk decision, most people don't have that amount of time available for more than one or two interests. I see no reason why they are cheating if they choose to experience this sport via a guide. It's safer, it still gives most of the experience, and it gives them to knowledge to make a decision.

I generally aim to try one or two new sports/experiences each year. Some are one-offs - I did some caving in Central California last year. Used a guide, had fun both days, but it's not bumping off my major activities. Windsurfing was 4 years back - I go out maybe twice a summer. Triathlons is 3 years old - I do 2-4 per year. White water rafting is an annual event. Mountain climbing is once or twice in a good year. I don't know where skydiving fits - I never intended to pursue the series, now I'm at least committed to finishing through A, or maybe B so I can do a night jump.

Am I less of a rafter or caver than some? Sure. Am I cheating or dimishing the sport? Of course not. These sorts of sports benefit from having a large base of paying newbies - introduces money, safer practices (usually), and a large base of instructor skilled people.

And if those tandem passengers want to say they skydived, I'm certainly not going to insist otherwise.

[diverdriver 5]

Quote

Sort of off topic, but I would NEVER call SDC a "tandem factory". Yes, they do a lot of tandems and other student jumps, and I'm sure the majority of income is from tandems, BUT the dzo(s) always make sure the "fun jumpers" are taken care of. How many other DZs dedicate at least one (sometimes 2) aircraft to fun jumpers and a second to students during peak season? That is not something a "tandem factory" would do!

I personally think a tandem as the first jump is a great idea. Should it be mandatory across the board? Probably not. But every DZ has a right to decide which training program(s) to offer and focus on. If you don't like what one dz has to offer, feel free to go somewhere else.

Psssst...... Maura... the rest of the outside world does view SDC as a Tandem Factory. My point was that most of those people are wrong and that the program does work rather well. Sorry that didn't come across in the post to you.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[AndyAnderson 0]

Quote

Tandem students do effect the "purity" of our sport.

I've always thought of it as cheating. Thrill without the responsibility or consequence. It attracts the wrong type of individual. Someone who wants to participate in a sport but do absolutely nothing to learn about it.

Be shure to tell Greg, Seth, Fumio, a nameless friend's mother and the other +-38 and their families that they were taking a thrill without responsibility or consequence. Were they the wrong type of individual?

You may have to do a search into history if you do not know what I am talking about.

[pilotdave 0]

Quote

Quote

But I think scott's logic is extremely flawed.

So yes, I agree that more tandem first jump students never make a second jump than first time AFF students.

Kinda sounds like a contradiction.

Nope, your logic is flawed again.
Dave

[freeryde13 0]

tandems are cool ...don't get me wrong. for some people its a way to build courage or whatever. and for some its the only time they'll ever skydive.... but so what, they get a small taste of our thaaaang.

but it definately is a little unpure to me...nothing wrong with that. and sme dzs take it a little to far. and what about the tandem masters laughing and complainng about the tandems. .... if your gonna send a guy up after a half hour video and a few hours of training, what do you expect?

but.... i would love to be an aff and tandem instructor and talk with each new jumper and figure out what they wana do and whats the best way for them to do it.

_________________________________________

people see me as a challenge to their balance

[Nullified 0]

Quote

but it definately is a little unpure to me...nothing wrong with that.

Other than this statement, I like your post.
I just can't understand why a Tandem would be considered to be "Unpure." It's simply another method.
I'm sure that there are people out there who consider AFF to be "Impure" compared to S/L progression, or that radio assist and AADs on student rigs are "Impure". How would you respond to them?
My first jump was a Tandem, and I don't feel that there was anything impure about it. In fact, I don't find any purity or redeeming value in belittling another's chosen method of instruction or learning. Quite the contrary. And if a TM has the attitude that Tandems are somehow less, or impure or whatever, then that TM should reconsider why he or she is a Tandem Master.
Again though, I do agree with the rest of what you wrote.

Stay safe,
Mike

If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid.

[rocketdog 0]

WoW -- better get the boxing gloves out!

Anyway, while Tandems MAY in fact make for better students/better transitions to other methods, I think it would be completely unfair to make Tandems MANDATORY.

Not that safety should not be an issue!!! However, I have NEVER done a tandem & probably will not ever choose to for a variety of reasons. PERSONALLY, I am very independent and found it extremely gratifying to do things "unattached" from the very first jump. MAKING someone do a TDM first would undermine & harness that independence that I think a lot of people strive for..... I think it all depends on your personality.

~hollywood

see the world! http://gorocketdog.blogspot.com

[Nullified 0]

Quote

WoW -- better get the boxing gloves out!

That's it...Fight Night 2004 at The Ranch

Sorry for the meaningless post.

Stay safe,
Mike

If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid.

[freeryde13 0]

a but yes grasshopper, one must search for true meaning of idea. nah..... just fucking around man. but.... i'm not belittling a damn thing. the whole thing i was saying ...and am trying to elaborate on now is.... and purity isn't good and unpure isn't bad. my whole thing is about freedom to choose. i don't know whats better and what's that mean anyway. i'm more interested in trying to live each jump.... and i haven't had a bad jump yet, knock on wood.

my feeling is however...after i say a thousand different ways that i realize i might die skydiving and won't sue the dropzone or anyone if i die...... and pay the money the dz wants for teaching ad letting jump......i find it bizzarr that i can't jump how i wanna jump. i just agreed that i am responsible for my own actions and blah blah blah.....and i can't be responsible for my own actions

hope i explained that right and you might find some flaws in a few words here and there....but i hope i painted a picture of what i'm saying.

_________________________________________

people see me as a challenge to their balance

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

my feeling is however...after i say a thousand different ways that i realize i might die skydiving and won't sue the dropzone or anyone if i die...... and pay the money the dz wants for teaching ad letting jump......i find it bizzarr that i can't jump how i wanna jump. i just agreed that i am responsible for my own actions and blah blah blah.....and i can't be responsible for my own actions

The AFF-I instructor might respond that while you're willing to take the risk for yourself, a really bad AFF1 student puts them at risk. A tandem or two tends to weed out the worst case people.

I don't know how great the risk is. I think I was a pretty sedate ride for them. I think I'd be afraid to change by body orientation to grab them - one on each side is much better balanced, but in a panic thinking goes out the door.

[Nullified 0]

Quote

my feeling is however...after i say a thousand different ways that i realize i might die skydiving and won't sue the dropzone or anyone if i die...... and pay the money the dz wants for teaching ad letting jump......i find it bizzarr that i can't jump how i wanna jump. i just agreed that i am responsible for my own actions and blah blah blah.....and i can't be responsible for my own actions

I understand that perfectly, and I agree with you. I'm not for making Tandems mandatory, I just get a little irked when people imply that a tandem isn't a "Real" skydive, or that it's cheating et cetera. It's just different.

As I said in my other reply, other than that one tandem comment, I agree with everything you're saying.

Have fun and stay safe,
Mike

If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid.

[argon 0]

Just a thought, without tandems do you think the sport would have grown as much as it has. Without the "tandem factory" would there be as many turbine DZ's. Fun jumpers don't really pay the bills. Let's face it-a DZO doesn't do this shit out of the goodness of his heart. Hot section inspections on Pratt Pt6's aren't cheap. My first jump was ona 182 that they took the door off and I had to stand on the right landing wheel-no step. Who cares about "cheating",the pureness all that bullshit. Bottom line airports and general aviation in general is not well represented. Many would rather see a fuckin' golf course built on the site. Mainstream--is the shit-who cares about how many come back-blah,blah,blah-success in business is what it is all aout. Period. That's what keeps the DZ's flying decent aircraft. I quit flight instruction-most of the fleet is older than I am. IMHO,do whatever it takes to bring people in and jump,so the DZ can afford to pay instructors,pay for decent and SAFE TURBINE aircraft,I started on S/L with clapped out old military shit-guess what-it scared me and I DIDN'T come back and tried FJCseveral times. I built a single seat Pitts S1S,guess what I took ALOT of dual instruction in a 2 seat Pitt's before I flew mine solo for the first time. I'd love to be a "SKY GOD",I'm not, I'm glad tandems are here and If that's what it takes for me to be comfortable and safe so be it. I took a lot of years away from the sport because I thought the way it was initially taught was not for me. Purity in the sport-who gives a fuck, the sport NEEDS MORE SKYDIVERS-safety in numbers my friend-noise and eviromental complaints can ruin a good time and the more participants (READ:VOTERS) that are involved make a difference. If all this means that tandems make more people come back and continue training great. Times have changed. The society is hell bent on sueing everybody-insurance is practically impossible to get. Look at the BIG picture. Bottom line the more people that come back,the more skydivers there are and the more skydivers there are means that more people are REPRESENTED.Some fail to realize in todays social climate all it takes is a few squeeky wheels and the sport will suffer. DO WHAT IS NECESSARY-keep the DZ's in business.Thats what it all about--If it was still S/L training do you really think the sport would be where it is today. Just my 2 cents-I just want to learn,getmy license,be safe and enjoy the beauty of a special sport.

***********
Freedom isn't free. Don't forget: Mother Earth is waiting for you--there is a debt you have to pay...... POPS #9329 Commercial Pilot,Instrument MEL

[freeryde13 0]

great speech bro....and i agree 100% with about everything you had to say.... but , what' s your opinion on the subject of discusion here?

_________________________________________

people see me as a challenge to their balance

[argon 0]

Quote

great speech bro....and i agree 100% with about everything you had to say.... but , what' s your opinion on the subject of discusion here?[/

Sorry about the rant bro,yeah I guess I didn't anser the question-(shouldn't mix Crown Royal and Warsteiner!)I think it is up to the DZO and the ST&A staff.Fact is it still is a consumer based industry and if a potential student disagrees with the management,they can always take their money elsewhere.My overall point is that tandem's are indeed a money maker and have proven to be a valuable training aid. Tradtional AFF has a very good safety record too-I still think its down to a dollar decision made by the DZO-tandem's need less staff.Which means they save money. And if their bank accounts can stay in the black that means better facilities,better aircraft for established jumpers.

***********
Freedom isn't free. Don't forget: Mother Earth is waiting for you--there is a debt you have to pay...... POPS #9329 Commercial Pilot,Instrument MEL

• Quote

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

Yeah, I agree with you Shark. It would be nice to do Cat A and Cat B with them (L-1 & L-2) and then send them to the wind tunnel. Our jobs may get a little less boring say if they get some decent flying skills, but there are drawbacks to everything

But honestly, I have never been in a wind tunnel and I think it would be cool to give students that experience and right before L-3 would be a good time to introduce them to it.

Some of y'all are lucky, living so close to a wind tunnel and all ... I would take advantage of it.

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

[Shark 0]

Quote

Some of y'all are lucky, living so close to a wind tunnel and all ... I would take advantage of it.

Um, may be we can make a special trip when ya come out fer Chicks Rock.

[riggerrob 558]

Try looking at it from a political perspective.
Granted, tandems produce few old-school skydivers, however they produce thousands of influential friends for DZs.
Just think about the next time some self-serving real estate developer complains to the town council about those "noisy" skydiving airplanes as part of his long term goal to pave over the municipal airport.
These days a town councillor is likely to respond "I watched my son, brother, niece, husband, me, etc." do a tandem on his/her birthday. He had a great time because DZ staff treated him like a valued customer. They pay their taxes, buy fuel and frequent local restaurants, gas stations, etc. Stop picking on those nice skydivers. And while you are at it, piss off with your silly motion."

You cannot buy that sort of good will.