Newbies and choking

[darrenspooner 0]

I just got asked to review an academic paper for a psychology journal concerned with a theory relating the onset of panic disorder to choking experiences. One of the themes in the paper was about newbie skydivers panicking because they believe they can't breath. Does anyone know of anyone that this happened to? I know some of the tandem students I've been in the plane with have complained that they couldn't breath properly (usually because they have their mouths open screaming), but never met a tandem student yet that had a full on panic attack. One reference in the paper suggests its a reasonably common experience.

***Die with your boots on

[mr2mk1g 10]

When going through cloud - afaik, very common. Several people I've spoken to (AFF and tandem) claim not to have been able to breath through cloud.

I spent an entire hair cut explaining to my hairdresser that she really could have breathed when she went through cloud on her tandem. It's just a psychological response - information overload I guess.

[D22369 0]

I havent seen it yet....and I have done a lot of tandem vids.....
Roy

-->One reference in the paper suggests its a reasonably common experience.***

just curious..... who was the reference?

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[tombuch 0]

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I've been in the plane with have complained that they couldn't breath properly (usually because they have their mouths open screaming), but never met a tandem student yet that had a full on panic attack. One reference in the paper suggests its a reasonably common experience.

Difficulty breathing is a relatively common problem with tandem students. Full-on panic attacks do happen, but they are very rare. Most students are frightened but remain capable of handling the basic tasks, and they remain alert enough to communicate throughout the jump. Those that have a panic attack may be unable to talk, irrational, combative, or may drop to the floor in a shivering panic.

I don't know what the paper you are reviewing uses as a definition of 'panic.' If it is simple fear, then yes, it is common. If it is defined as a disabling event, then I would not call it common. Disabling is itself a tricky term, especially on a tandem jump when the training and expectations are so limited.

My suggestion is to provide feedback to the author/journal suggesting that the reference to skydiving either be removed, or expanded with a better definition of panic, and statistics or specific anecdotal evidence of the problem.

I cover a bit of the fear response on pages 16-20 of my consumer book, JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy, related specifically to "gaspipng For Breath" and "Sensory Overload.'

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[pccoder 0]

For some reason I seem to think I remember having a bit of trouble with this on my very first tandem. I think I was perhaps worked up and thought it may be a problem which psychologically prepared me to have trouble breathing. I haven't had any problems since.

PcCoder.net

[lowie 0]

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For some reason I seem to think I remember having a bit of trouble with this on my very first tandem. I think I was perhaps worked up and thought it may be a problem which psychologically prepared me to have trouble breathing. I haven't had any problems since.

I cant remember breathing during my first few jumps so it cant have been a problem.

[pilotdave 0]

Don't know anyone, but saw a great video of it once (10 mins after his jump). The guy was there with some of his frat brothers. Came down from his jump, talked about how cool it was and all that. Then his video guy came over with the tape. So he put it on for his friends to see.

Right from the second he left the plane he was in a complete panic. He wasn't breathing, and he just kept pointing to his mouth, signaling that he couldnt breath. Then he started pointing up, toward the plane, signaling "PUT ME BACK IN!" Then back to pointing at his mouth for most of the rest of the freefall, looking just as silly as could be.

His friends had a nice laugh, but he was a good sport about it.

Dave

[ryoder 1,400]

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For some reason I seem to think I remember having a bit of trouble with this on my very first tandem. I think I was perhaps worked up and thought it may be a problem which psychologically prepared me to have trouble breathing. I haven't had any problems since.

I was talking to a TI the other day who told me he used to have tandem students sometimes complain about being unable to breath until he realized that when he was tightening the laterals on the Sigma harness, it was in turn tightening the belly strap which makes it hard for the student to breath. Now when he tightens the laterals, he checks to be sure the belly strap isn't too tight.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[councilman24 36]

Sounds to me like in the case of skydiving he's got it backward. Not breathing because of panic, not panic because of not breathing. Sounds like this guy believes he/we really can't breath in freefall. In other cases choking certainly can lead to fear and panic.

I'd say if the skydiving hypothysis is the main part of the paper, through him out of an airplane with it.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[piisfish 135]

but we all know you don't need to breathe in freefall as the air is forced through your skin, unless you have a ZP RWsuit

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[rainman 0]

My colleague said he couldn't breathe during his tandemjump, and two weeks ago I saw a tandem video where this guy was frantically 'running' and flapping his arms. His explanation was that he couldn't breathe...

I have so far been not very successful in convincing my colleague that everyone I know can breathe normally during freefall .

Oh well, make sure you don't suffocate in freefall!

Rainman

[riggerrob 558]

Dozens of my tandem students have complained about not being able to breath in freefall.
Most of them just paniced, kind of like the first time you toss a scuba student in the water with a regulator in his mouth. His gut reaction in a new environment is to hold his breath.
Most of my tandem students who have complained about difficulty breathing also had their mouths open. The human mouth scoops far too much air at 120 mph. One of my colleagues speculates that gagging is caused by high speed air hitting the epiglottis (sp?), the "gag button" at the top rear of your mouth.
Also remember that when people get scared and over-loaded, their senses start to shut down. They go deaf and suffer glocoma (sp?). Just ask any AFF instructor how many students have ignored hand signals right in front of their eyes. Also ask ground controllers how many students have complained about radios dying 50 feet above the ground.
In conclusion, most complaints about not being able to breath start with panic. There are few physiological limitations to breathing in freefall below 15,000 feet.

[AggieDave 6]

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There are few physiological limitations to breathing in freefall below 15,000 feet.

I would fully agree with you here! Seen it with my students and other people's students more then a few times.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[ryoder 1,400]

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Also ask ground controllers how many students have complained about radios dying 50 feet above the ground.

ROTFL! I saw that this weekend. AFF student arguing with AFFI that his radio died just before landing.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[dj-seus 0]

greetings


heh i can remember my second jump (aff), i simply forgot to breathe. i was concentrating so much on the dive and my arch that about 20 seconds into the freefall i realized i hadn't taken a breath yet.
course. as soon as had that realization, i laughed at myself and started breathing.

and, incidentally, i really DID have a radio go out on me during an aff jump, about 20 feet above the ground... it was funny - i could hear the AFFI getting me ready for the flare... "alright, feet and knees together, and... wait for it... wait for it... AND... "

and then it was just static.

the landing was fine...

-dan

P.S. - edited to say that i don't believe i even mentioned the radio thing to the instructer... i was warned before-hand that the radio is a nice thing to have, but that relying on it is a mistake - nothing is better than your own skills.

[skyjules 0]

I had a simular problem when I started freefalling. I was able to breath, but when I landed I was so out of breath. I was told that it's a form of anxiety. Now that i'm used to it, it doesn't happen no more.

Also the other day, I went through a cloud for the first time. It seemed like forever, but while I was going through it, it felt like I couldn't take a breath. Some divers at the dropzone said it was all in my head. I guess it's just another thing I have to get used to.

***Free bird Forever

[caz 0]

I've heard a lot of tandems say they couldn't breathe in freefall but put it down to the fact that a lot of tandems look down as soon as they exit the plane, thereby restricting their airway and limiting the amount of air they can take in. And then that topped with the ground rush and 120 winds causes them to panic and make it seem to them like they can't breathe. Not heard anyone say they felt like they were choking though.

Whereas most of us who learnt to skydive are told to keep our heads up to get our body position right and because we have other things on our mind about what we're supposed to be doing on that particular learing jump, we don't even think about it.

~~~ London Skydivers ~~~

[sillie1111 0]

I have had panic attacks in the past but never have experienced them in freefall. I had a hard pull once and i could feel my heart pounding through my chest but i could breath easily.Once i was under canopy i could hardly breath and i felt like i was being suffocated. The funny thing was that was one of my best tipy toe landings on my feet right next to the x. I think it is just a miss conception that you cant breath in freefall when you have anxiety, most of the people who say they cant breath in freefall are probably just having a case of sensory overload and has no real idea of what is going on, not to say that someone cant have a asthma attack or somthing like that, im not sure.

~Shelly

[FrogNog 1]

I noticed a breathing issue on some of my early static-line jumps (inside the plane) that matched something I'd experienced on motorcycle before: lots of cold air.

When the door opens and there's a bunch of cold air (the air being cold in the spring and fall in these parts), my breathing wants to stop. I got over this by putting my hand in front of my face to keep it from smacking me in the nose so hard, and then I got used to it. [:D]

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[jheadley 0]

I've done 12 jumps and don't remember breathing on any I guess I am, but I just don't realize it.

A friend who went on a tandem said he had some trouble breathing.

[Push 0]

I had the same experience in my early jumps. We jumped from C182s, so you would be sitting right behind the door as it swings outwards and the air would blast you in the face. This is not an issue in an Otter, of course. I would hold my breath while the door opens, then slowly let it out. Helps with breathing, and helps with door fear. Now I don't really care, got used to it.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[cvfd1399 0]

Just jump!!!!! It is hot down here so a open door is welcome until your swetty jumpsuit gets cold and you start to shiver.

[evilivan 0]

Attached are some video grabs of a tandem.... she was happy (1j.jpg) until she went through the cloud (1n.jpg - she didn't see it coming) when she certainly got pretty freaked out - the footage is very amusing - but recovered well enough once she realised everything was OK (1p.jpg)

Not entirely related, but I thought the photos might be entertaining...

"If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation."
David Brent

[goose491 0]

Breathing is a common issue in freefall. I often wonder if the well-known myth that you can't breath in freefall didn't stem from actual early skydivers expressing their difficulty doing so. Nearly all skydivers I know report that breathing properly is a definite factor when training. All you coaches, how many times have you found yourself telling even experienced jumpers "Remember to breathe!" I know I've caught myself coming off the hill and holding my breathe a handful of times when I'm doing something new or thinking too hard... now I'm making funny faces or signing songs on the hill to make sure I'm breathing properly.

I progressed static line so the whuffo-rush/fright of climbing out and launching yourself from a perfectly good airplane had started to dull a bit before I did my first freefall... but I can imagine having a hard time breathing if the first time I ever jumped had significant freefall. It's all in the mind yes, but you can't really prevent it for anyone... not ever being able to actually describe what they are about to go through.

just my $0.02CND

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[SimpleOne 0]

On my first tadem, I thought I couldn't breathe in freefall at first. I remember thinking to myself, They said it's 60 seconds in freefall, so, even if I can't breathe thru the whole thing, I'll be fine, now enjoy yourself...

I forgot all about it, and it was never a problem again.

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