firstime 0 #51 March 8, 2004 your right if everyone does the same thing 100% of the time..someones # is going to come up. Go back and read the thread again and if needed again . I think your thinking process stopped with "who lives & who dies". Read it in it's entirety. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #52 March 8, 2004 QuoteI've both cut and fought something longer than it should have been fought. I've learned tons about myself from both experiences. And I've ridden a "mal" much longer than I would've last spring, and handled it without cutting (knot in the brake line discovered on a clear and pull at sunset. Decided to not cut, and relearned how my canopy was flying that day, that moment, with that issue...)...and brought it in safely and confidently. I look at it as a learning curve. While there was no doubt I had to cut the first time, I should've cut the second time, but didn't understand enough about the canopy to realize how fast I was losing altitude and wasn't checking it as often as I should've been. When I finally cleared "ludicrous line twists", I was way under my hard deck. So from the first to the second, I recognized how to identify the seriousness of the mal (even if it is minor, shit happens). From the second to the third, I learned alti awareness, have a plan, stick with the plan, and make your decisions based on you, the moment, and your skill level. As to pride, I think it's far more a ground attitude than it is an air attitude. More along the lines of "I have more jumps than you, I know what I'm doing, push off" when someone is talking to someone else. I think it's developed on the ground, and may tinge the discisions in the air, but mostly it's noticed on the ground. Go read this post You have something like 70-80 jumps in a time span of over two years. You should NOT be providing tips for any jumper. Emergency Procedures are 'Cutaway - Pull Reserve' for partial malfunctions. They are 'Pull Reserve' for total malfunctions. There are no EPs that say 'cutaway' [only]. You might think the difference between saying 'Cutaway and Pull reserve' and 'Cutaway' is a minor point. I beg to differ. I have lost friends that cutaway and never pulled a reserve. It is an important point that most any JM can educate you on. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #53 March 8, 2004 QuoteYou have something like 70-80 jumps in a time span of over two years. You should NOT be providing tips for any jumper. I read her post and didn't find any "tips" in it... am I wrong? Looked to me like she was just describing her own learning experiences, a bit like a "journal".www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #54 March 8, 2004 QuoteYou have something like 70-80 jumps in a time span of over two years. You should NOT be providing tips for any jumper. I find it ironic that in 50+ responses, you've chosen this one to slam, and to "correct". I think there is far more dangerous thinking demonstrated on this thread than my comment. Perhaps I'm dense, but I didn't give any tips out. I recounted three very different issues, and the learning curve between them. I am not going to comment further. Anything I say, Jan, you would take out of context; additionally, there is no justification needed from my position. Ciels- Michele (Actually, after considering it, I've realized that you're constantly stating that you want your posts to be judged on their content, and not because of your jump numbers...and yet you state that I have no place sharing my experience because I have low jump numbers; I mean, if you want your posts to be judged simply on their content, shouldn't you extend that same courtesy and respect to others? Or maybe you should just fill out your profile after all. ) ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rocketdog 0 #55 March 8, 2004 i would think one's personal answer is dependent upon their culture: religion, personal views, meaning of a "safe" skydiver etc. very well-stated..... sounds like it should be in a Psychological journal or something!?!?! IN RESPONSE TO THE ABOVE POST MakeItHappen, I would hope that you are not attacking someone offering their experiences/suggestions!! ....Being that you have X amount of jumps, you should know first-hand that it is up to skydivers to discriminate the information they acquire. A prime example is Flat packing vs. Pro packing.... both sides will argue themselves to death -- in the end, only the person under the canopy needs to make that judgment. I believe there is a much more tactful, constructive way to phrase what is probably your intention. see the world! http://gorocketdog.blogspot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #56 March 8, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI don't see how the guy who died swooping the pond when high fits any of these categories, except maybe insufficient humility. Course correction? He made a bonehead decision to swoop the pond - prior to setting up for the swoop he could have changed his mind and landed elsewhere.Quote He had so many chemicals in his bloodstream the only thing "elsewhere" was his mind. I don't think course correction was an option. lovely assumption, but thats all it is is an assumption. fact is he died because he turned to low. that is failure to react, you can speculate it was because he was impaired, but again its only a speculation, for all you know he'd made his last 100 hook turns under the same conditions.... The reason he died is that he was severely chemically impaired - that is not in dispute. Everything else followed from that. And he'd not swooped the pond previously. Teaching people how to get out of the corner when they are jumping high is not the way. Getting them not to jump high in the first place is the solution. A lot of the fatalites we read about would have been prevented by the exercise of better judgement before exiting (or even boarding) the plane and better judgement at 1000ft. Concentrating efforts on how to extricate yourself from situations you shouldn't have been in in the first place is secondary, IMO. that is absolutely in dispute, the reason he died was high speed impact with the ground, everything else is simple speculation..I said nothing about swooping that particular pond, i mentioned his previous 100 hook turns, do you have information on his intoxication level on those turns?? you can speculate he reacted badly beacuse of his intoxication level, however it is his reaction that killed him, NOT his intoxication level, but that incident is moot in to the real discussion in this thread.. there is nothing you can do to change what has already happened before you left, or while you were at 3000 feet, no matter why it happened or if it was preventable, there is however quite alot you can do to train yourself to react better when you are in a situation that is happening NOW...training for those eventualities, and examining the personal characteristics that determine how you react in such situations is equally as important as trying to prevent them in the first place. Otherwise your simply 'crying over spilt milk' and that wont do a damn thing to help you save yourself as it is happening..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #57 March 8, 2004 Quote in essence, yes. it was his predestined time to go i guess you dont need a parachute since if its not your time to go your going to survive the fall.... you know i'm all for any philosophical/religious discussions, however throwing the word 'logic' into your argument is simply ignorant, and this is not the forum for such voodoo superstitions in the first place...take that shit to talk back where we can discuss it ad nausuim if you wish.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flyinchicken 0 #58 March 8, 2004 QuoteMy 1st cutaway around jump 75, I got quite a bit of "friendly advice" about not cutting away and working with the mal. My first cutaway was jump # 19! The spring loaded pilot chute on the rented manta student gear went over the front of my parachute and was caught in my left steering lines. I did a control check and because I was so new, the sluggish left hand turn that wouldn't stop scared me enough to make me cutaway. On the ground I got some "friendly advice" from the DZO that a slight problem like that was nothing to cutaway from. Now, I would deal with the situation diferently. But at the time, I respected what I "didn't know", and chopped. I 2 was worried I may hesitate when next in a situation. However my reserve ride last week at Gold Coast allayed that fear. The line twists, that were entirely my fault(bad body positioning on opening as well as uneven leg straps), sent me into a diving spin on my back. I tried to get out while counting to 3 in my head then chopped. Something I had always planned to do in that situation. The other thing that does worry me about my skydiving habits is, as I get more experience will I start pushing myself further? Next time will I ride it down lower and allow the cintrifical force to build up? Or will I use my "better understanding" of a canopy to land something that would be safer to get rid of? Your post has made me think............... Thank You Jan "Diligent observation leads to pure abstraction". Lari Pittman Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites XWuffo 0 #59 March 8, 2004 QuoteYou have something like 70-80 jumps in a time span of over two years. You should NOT be providing tips for any jumper. --------------------- I am very grateful for Michele taking the time to share her experience, in order that I might learn something. She has every right to give out as many tips as she sees fit. Ever been on a load of SL jumpers, and they all giving each other tips ? You seem to imply that we, the uneducated/inexperienced, are not smart enough to deceide for ourselves what information to use or loose. As we in Africa know - "If you're going to be dumb - you'd better be tough." - Tonto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Newbie 0 #60 March 8, 2004 QuoteQuoteYou have something like 70-80 jumps in a time span of over two years. You should NOT be providing tips for any jumper. --------------------- I am very grateful for Michele taking the time to share her experience, in order that I might learn something. She has every right to give out as many tips as she sees fit. Ever been on a load of SL jumpers, and they all giving each other tips ? You seem to imply that we, the uneducated/inexperienced, are not smart enough to deceide for ourselves what information to use or loose. I disagree with your last point - read this post here - you might feel differently after doing so. Keeping one's mouth shut I wouldn't consider advising ANYONE on issues of safety - not that i think Michele was doing that in her post, but that's not the issue - pointing an inexperienced jumper in the direction of, or taking them to, an instructor or highly experienced jumper when they need help/advice, is. You might have 5000 jumps and know what you are on about, but me with just over 100, i probably wouldn't even know if i was telling someone something that could potentially endanger them or not, and i'm not going to take that chance by giving out "tips" and "advice" just because everyone else on my load does. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Liemberg 0 #61 March 8, 2004 QuoteYou seem to imply that we, the uneducated/inexperienced, are not smart enough to deceide for ourselves what information to use or loose. During my static line course in 1979 I overheard a conversation of two fellow students in the airport restaurant. A girl was convinced that in case of a malfunction (like: "the parachute doesn't open") her hero, the instructor, would jump out of the plane and come to her rescue. The other student thought that was impossible. The debate ended undecided. Mind you, I was in the course and had jumped just once at that time, they were from the previous course - both had made several jumps already. I don't know if she was told by yet another student that the instructor would come to the rescue or she had found it out all by herself. Doesn't matter, me thinks. Neither does it matter that I was smart enough to understand from day one that instructors were not in the habit of coming to the rescue, should the parachute not open as promised. Sorry to bring the news but the uneducated / inexperienced are not "smart enough". (seen 'a few' go through my classroom since 1985... Take it from me: when they start educating each other unsupervised, disaster strikes...) On several occasions I "brought something down" by sheer luck and walked away unharmed. (It wasn't turbulent, I DID manage to end up in that part of the DZ which is wet and has high grass, the space between the parked car and the concrete pole was just wide enough for my body, etc.) That was dumb. I'm not smart enough. Michelle brought something down "safely and confidently..." meanwhile relearning how her canopy was flying that day, that moment, with that issue. I wish I knew how to do that. (Or, to put it in another perspective: If you lurk these forums with well-written stuff and on several occasions people who have forgotten more about the subject at hand than you managed to learn in your short career tell you politely to "shut the f**k up", maybe it is time to do just that. We know you are literate. What else is new?) "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites XWuffo 0 #62 March 8, 2004 Your example of an "overheard a conversation of two fellow students" is rather lame. Anyone with two brain cells knows that's just being stupid. I'm so tired of this type of student bashing. The only thing I'm trying to say, is that sharing information is the best way to learn, about ALL skydiving related matters. of course I have total respect and trust in my instructor (if I can ever find him on the DZ with a minute to spare) fact is: I will choose to LISTEN to everything that is said, from WHOEVER, and then go and make the effort to find out the correct procedure from and Instructor. My post was about Michele, and not about students teaching each other, which obviously is crazyAs we in Africa know - "If you're going to be dumb - you'd better be tough." - Tonto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flyhi 24 #63 March 8, 2004 Quote Humility This is a jumper's ability to say 'Yo - main - you ain't working. I'm cutting away and pulling my reserve.' You do not have to know which line was over what line or what brake stow did whatever - you have to be able to -say 'You ain't working. It's not my ego on the line. I'm going for the reserve.' I have heard way too many stories and read too many fatalities about people that let their pride kill them while they tried to 'fix' something. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This attribute I disagree with as presented. I don't know anyone who avoided a cutaway inorder to look cool (or not look weak). I think in those emergency situations, your life is all you think of. This was the first thing I thought of when I read this post: QuoteA woman last year did not take the criticism so well and went in because of it. (I believe she had over 1000 jumps). While I cannot blame her decision on the people who gave her so much crap for her 1st cutaway (2 weeks prior, same problem), one cannot help but think that incidents like these might squash some of that Monday morning quarterbacking. Unfortunately, I believe that is the quintessential example right there.Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,625 #64 March 8, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI don't see how the guy who died swooping the pond when high fits any of these categories, except maybe insufficient humility. Course correction? He made a bonehead decision to swoop the pond - prior to setting up for the swoop he could have changed his mind and landed elsewhere.Quote He had so many chemicals in his bloodstream the only thing "elsewhere" was his mind. I don't think course correction was an option. lovely assumption, but thats all it is is an assumption. fact is he died because he turned to low. that is failure to react, you can speculate it was because he was impaired, but again its only a speculation, for all you know he'd made his last 100 hook turns under the same conditions.... The reason he died is that he was severely chemically impaired - that is not in dispute. Everything else followed from that. And he'd not swooped the pond previously. Teaching people how to get out of the corner when they are jumping high is not the way. Getting them not to jump high in the first place is the solution. A lot of the fatalites we read about would have been prevented by the exercise of better judgement before exiting (or even boarding) the plane and better judgement at 1000ft. Concentrating efforts on how to extricate yourself from situations you shouldn't have been in in the first place is secondary, IMO. that is absolutely in dispute, the reason he died was high speed impact with the ground, everything else is simple speculation..I said nothing about swooping that particular pond, i mentioned his previous 100 hook turns, do you have information on his intoxication level on those turns?? you can speculate he reacted badly beacuse of his intoxication level, however it is his reaction that killed him, NOT his intoxication level, but that incident is moot in to the real discussion in this thread.. there is nothing you can do to change what has already happened before you left, or while you were at 3000 feet, no matter why it happened or if it was preventable, there is however quite alot you can do to train yourself to react better when you are in a situation that is happening NOW...training for those eventualities, and examining the personal characteristics that determine how you react in such situations is equally as important as trying to prevent them in the first place. Otherwise your simply 'crying over spilt milk' and that wont do a damn thing to help you save yourself as it is happening.. Well, you do it your way, but I do not need any training in how to extricate myself from a bad situation due to my jumping under the influence of drugs or booze.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Michele 1 #65 March 8, 2004 QuoteMichelle brought something down "safely and confidently..." meanwhile relearning how her canopy was flying that day, that moment, with that issue. I wish I knew how to do that. This is soooo off topic.... But you bring up an interesting point. I wish you had brought it up differently, but that's all right, I'll leave your acrimony to the side, and "literately" explain what I meant.... The first cut was AFF level three. The second incident was "bonehead" on my part, ludicrous line twists and what not. The issue wasn't the line twists, it was my losing alti awareness, and no understanding that the canopy - while flying straight and steady - may still not be a good canopy...I forgot the part of control check that was about "control"....the jump was somewhere in jump number 20-30. I didn't cut, should've cut, and survived unhurt (but scared silly, appropriately so) by dumb luck. I took the canopy control class at jump 40. Learned a ton. Practiced a ton. The last one was an over-under knot discovered at 9k, on jump 65 or something, sunset clear and pull. I had 6,500 feet to discover if I would be landing this canopy, and learn to fly it the way it needed to be flown at that time, in those conditions, that day. For 6,500 feet, I spent the entire time making sure there was flare, nothing else was wrong, that I could turn it both ways, and developing a landing pattern which would bring me in safely and I was confident that I could perform, or I would've cut at 2.5K. Had I not had that kind of alti to learn how that canopy was flying at that day, with that problem, in those conditions, I would've cut in a heart beat. Had I not taken the canopy course as early as I had, I would not have had the ability to assess what was wrong, and find an alternative plan. Quote(Or, to put it in another perspective: If you lurk these forums with well-written stuff and on several occasions people who have forgotten more about the subject at hand than you managed to learn in your short career tell you politely to "shut the f**k up", maybe it is time to do just that. We know you are literate. What else is new?) Thanks for sharing your opinion. What you are not aware of is the personal undertones here between Jan and I. I do not take kindly to people telling me to not think, not consider, not question things that I see, hear, and learn. Further, at no point was I giving anyone tips - I was simply demonstrating a learning curve. I was also showing a bonehead move, and what I learned from that. I also don't appreciate people telling me to "shut the f*&k up"...that is not polite, no matter who you are. If you are wondering about something I post, ask me, don't slam me. If you think I did something wrong, tell me, and show me how to do it better next time. And please don't call me names doing it. And lastly, Jan's issue (this time) apparently is that I didn't say "and pull reserve." What I find interesting - and demonstrative of her personal issues with me - is that there were several other posts which said "cut", but didn't add those last three words. While she puts me down for low jump numbers and "giving tips" on this thread, I fail to see where I did that. Ciels- Michele (edited because of phrasing issues...yes, I'm literate.) ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #66 March 8, 2004 Wow - what a contentious post from innocuous and well meaning beginnings. 1 - Thanks Makeithappen, I think you did nail a lot of it for a general rule - there is always the stupid exception of course. 2 - I think getting hung up on the word "pride" is goofy when all that section meant was don't fixate on a problem to the exclusion of saving yourself. In that context, it's a good note. 3 - Anyone can have an opinion, and we are all smart enough to evaluate the opinion relative to the experience noted. However, I still take the experienced folk more seriously than the newbie speculations. But some newbies are smart and I'll always consider what they have to say to either learn or correct. Can't do that if they are gagged.... 4 - I revised my profile to remove a lot of information after CanuckinUSA got backstabbed from someone here. Sorry, trust until shown otherwise. 5 - Of course someone can't get drugged or drunk in the last 1000 ft of descent. But it is the essence of stupidity to get that way and then go skydive. It's also a loss of someone's friend and someone's child. But if it's a habit, then they are already on borrowed time and they might take me or someone else I care about with them. That's another essence of the same disregard/bad judgement. But arguing it is a lesson learned and it's not that we aren't sensitive to the loss of a friend, even one who made a bad personal decision, but that someone might take this lesson and not make it for themselves someday. my time's up now ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elfanie 0 #67 March 8, 2004 Quote Emergency Procedures are 'Cutaway - Pull Reserve' for partial malfunctions. They are 'Pull Reserve' for total malfunctions. . Not according to what I was taught. I was taught, "Regardless of the malfunction...look red, grab red, look silver, pull red, pull silver." Period. I was told ALWAYS to cut before pulling reserve. (ONLY exemption is an out of sequence deployment, where you pull the PC out before beginning EP's).. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 259 #68 March 8, 2004 QuoteQuote Emergency Procedures are 'Cutaway - Pull Reserve' for partial malfunctions. They are 'Pull Reserve' for total malfunctions. . Not according to what I was taught. I was taught, "Regardless of the malfunction...look red, grab red, look silver, pull red, pull silver." Period. I was told ALWAYS to cut before pulling reserve. (ONLY exemption is an out of sequence deployment, where you pull the PC out before beginning EP's).. That's what most students are taught in their first jump course, primarily because it's best to teach one response to any malfunction to someone who has no experience. Opinions differ on whether someone who is not a student should take the time to cutaway before pulling the reserve on a total or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elfanie 0 #69 March 8, 2004 Quote That's what most students are taught in their first jump course, primarily because it's best to teach one response to any malfunction to someone who has no experience. Ah...but I'm not a student. Quote Opinions differ on whether someone who is not a student should take the time to cutaway before pulling the reserve on a total or not. Ayup...my point exactly. Just talked with a 9000+ jump JM about this yesterday - and he feels that all mals should be dealt with by cutaway-pull reserve... my point was just that opinions differ. (although I really thought that the only controversy was with a PC in tow..not all high speed malfunctions. So some beleive that with baglock you shouldn't cutaway first?) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 259 #70 March 8, 2004 Quote(although I really thought that the only controversy was with a PC in tow..not all high speed malfunctions. So some beleive that with baglock you shouldn't cutaway first?) A baglock is not a total. A total is nothing out. Opinions differ on whether a p/c in tow is a total or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elfanie 0 #71 March 8, 2004 Quote A baglock or a p/c in tow are not totals. A total is nothing out. AH! I just experienced brainlock. I was reading "high speed malfunction" and "low speed malfunction"... not total or partial. gotcha. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites winsor 186 #72 March 8, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuote Emergency Procedures are 'Cutaway - Pull Reserve' for partial malfunctions. They are 'Pull Reserve' for total malfunctions. . Not according to what I was taught. I was taught, "Regardless of the malfunction...look red, grab red, look silver, pull red, pull silver." Period. I was told ALWAYS to cut before pulling reserve. (ONLY exemption is an out of sequence deployment, where you pull the PC out before beginning EP's).. That's what most students are taught in their first jump course, primarily because it's best to teach one response to any malfunction to someone who has no experience. Opinions differ on whether someone who is not a student should take the time to cutaway before pulling the reserve on a total or not. If I have initiated deployment, I always pull the cutaway when going for silver. I use the one-hand one-handle approach, and have successfully executed a gunslinger cutaway (deploying the reserve simultaneously). If I'm rolling out of an airplane that had an engine detonate down low with the pilot yelling "get out of my airplane!," I'm doing so with reserve deployment only. Otherwise I'm going for the main first, and cutting away the main when going for silver. If you make your decision above your hard deck, you should have plenty of time to use the two hands par handle approach, pulling both handles, for any and all emergencies. In any event, having one procedure that provides the greatest likelihood of success beats the hell out of blowing altitude deciding which approach is appropriate. Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Liemberg 0 #73 March 9, 2004 QuoteI do not take kindly to people telling me to not think, not consider, not question things that I see, hear, and learn. I have a fifteen year old here at home that I try to teach to always think, consider and question things that he sees, hears and learns. He does an admirable job at it. About once a week I tell him to shut the f**k up. He is (of course) an 'expert skydiver' with 8 tandemjumps as a passenger, hours and hours of packing parachutes, editing skydiving video's, eavesdropping on first jump courses (he could give a first jump course and other than "wow, this is a YOUNG instructor" the students wouldn't know the difference) parachuting-lectures in every classroom since kindergarten and oh... zero solo jumps. Since he'll be sixteen in may, arrangements are in the making to correct that. (Luckily I found 2 volunteers to do that task. They will give him private tuition, since no one wants him in a class with regular students...) My guess is that somewhere in that first jump course one of his instructors is going to tell him to "SHUT THE F**K UP" I can see it coming...(frankly, I insist on it. And lots of old fashioned boot camp style PLF's ) "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tattoojeff 0 #74 March 9, 2004 exelent post thankyou, i recently read a book called "bone games". outstanding book for all extreme sportsmen and women. there was a chapter about people who survived very bad situations. the book talked about the character trait of being tenacious, never giving up was a huge part of them survivng. even when one part of there mind accepted there death there was another voice that told the dont give up. i feel this is important Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #75 March 9, 2004 Quote "the dead know only one thing, it is better to be alive" *** "Better him than me!" ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing × Sign In Sign Up Forums Dropzones Classifieds Gear Indoor Articles Photos Videos Calendar Stolen Fatalities Leaderboard Activity Back Activity All Activity My Activity Streams Unread Content Content I Started
Zenister 0 #57 March 8, 2004 Quote in essence, yes. it was his predestined time to go i guess you dont need a parachute since if its not your time to go your going to survive the fall.... you know i'm all for any philosophical/religious discussions, however throwing the word 'logic' into your argument is simply ignorant, and this is not the forum for such voodoo superstitions in the first place...take that shit to talk back where we can discuss it ad nausuim if you wish.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyinchicken 0 #58 March 8, 2004 QuoteMy 1st cutaway around jump 75, I got quite a bit of "friendly advice" about not cutting away and working with the mal. My first cutaway was jump # 19! The spring loaded pilot chute on the rented manta student gear went over the front of my parachute and was caught in my left steering lines. I did a control check and because I was so new, the sluggish left hand turn that wouldn't stop scared me enough to make me cutaway. On the ground I got some "friendly advice" from the DZO that a slight problem like that was nothing to cutaway from. Now, I would deal with the situation diferently. But at the time, I respected what I "didn't know", and chopped. I 2 was worried I may hesitate when next in a situation. However my reserve ride last week at Gold Coast allayed that fear. The line twists, that were entirely my fault(bad body positioning on opening as well as uneven leg straps), sent me into a diving spin on my back. I tried to get out while counting to 3 in my head then chopped. Something I had always planned to do in that situation. The other thing that does worry me about my skydiving habits is, as I get more experience will I start pushing myself further? Next time will I ride it down lower and allow the cintrifical force to build up? Or will I use my "better understanding" of a canopy to land something that would be safer to get rid of? Your post has made me think............... Thank You Jan "Diligent observation leads to pure abstraction". Lari Pittman Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XWuffo 0 #59 March 8, 2004 QuoteYou have something like 70-80 jumps in a time span of over two years. You should NOT be providing tips for any jumper. --------------------- I am very grateful for Michele taking the time to share her experience, in order that I might learn something. She has every right to give out as many tips as she sees fit. Ever been on a load of SL jumpers, and they all giving each other tips ? You seem to imply that we, the uneducated/inexperienced, are not smart enough to deceide for ourselves what information to use or loose. As we in Africa know - "If you're going to be dumb - you'd better be tough." - Tonto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Newbie 0 #60 March 8, 2004 QuoteQuoteYou have something like 70-80 jumps in a time span of over two years. You should NOT be providing tips for any jumper. --------------------- I am very grateful for Michele taking the time to share her experience, in order that I might learn something. She has every right to give out as many tips as she sees fit. Ever been on a load of SL jumpers, and they all giving each other tips ? You seem to imply that we, the uneducated/inexperienced, are not smart enough to deceide for ourselves what information to use or loose. I disagree with your last point - read this post here - you might feel differently after doing so. Keeping one's mouth shut I wouldn't consider advising ANYONE on issues of safety - not that i think Michele was doing that in her post, but that's not the issue - pointing an inexperienced jumper in the direction of, or taking them to, an instructor or highly experienced jumper when they need help/advice, is. You might have 5000 jumps and know what you are on about, but me with just over 100, i probably wouldn't even know if i was telling someone something that could potentially endanger them or not, and i'm not going to take that chance by giving out "tips" and "advice" just because everyone else on my load does. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Liemberg 0 #61 March 8, 2004 QuoteYou seem to imply that we, the uneducated/inexperienced, are not smart enough to deceide for ourselves what information to use or loose. During my static line course in 1979 I overheard a conversation of two fellow students in the airport restaurant. A girl was convinced that in case of a malfunction (like: "the parachute doesn't open") her hero, the instructor, would jump out of the plane and come to her rescue. The other student thought that was impossible. The debate ended undecided. Mind you, I was in the course and had jumped just once at that time, they were from the previous course - both had made several jumps already. I don't know if she was told by yet another student that the instructor would come to the rescue or she had found it out all by herself. Doesn't matter, me thinks. Neither does it matter that I was smart enough to understand from day one that instructors were not in the habit of coming to the rescue, should the parachute not open as promised. Sorry to bring the news but the uneducated / inexperienced are not "smart enough". (seen 'a few' go through my classroom since 1985... Take it from me: when they start educating each other unsupervised, disaster strikes...) On several occasions I "brought something down" by sheer luck and walked away unharmed. (It wasn't turbulent, I DID manage to end up in that part of the DZ which is wet and has high grass, the space between the parked car and the concrete pole was just wide enough for my body, etc.) That was dumb. I'm not smart enough. Michelle brought something down "safely and confidently..." meanwhile relearning how her canopy was flying that day, that moment, with that issue. I wish I knew how to do that. (Or, to put it in another perspective: If you lurk these forums with well-written stuff and on several occasions people who have forgotten more about the subject at hand than you managed to learn in your short career tell you politely to "shut the f**k up", maybe it is time to do just that. We know you are literate. What else is new?) "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites XWuffo 0 #62 March 8, 2004 Your example of an "overheard a conversation of two fellow students" is rather lame. Anyone with two brain cells knows that's just being stupid. I'm so tired of this type of student bashing. The only thing I'm trying to say, is that sharing information is the best way to learn, about ALL skydiving related matters. of course I have total respect and trust in my instructor (if I can ever find him on the DZ with a minute to spare) fact is: I will choose to LISTEN to everything that is said, from WHOEVER, and then go and make the effort to find out the correct procedure from and Instructor. My post was about Michele, and not about students teaching each other, which obviously is crazyAs we in Africa know - "If you're going to be dumb - you'd better be tough." - Tonto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flyhi 24 #63 March 8, 2004 Quote Humility This is a jumper's ability to say 'Yo - main - you ain't working. I'm cutting away and pulling my reserve.' You do not have to know which line was over what line or what brake stow did whatever - you have to be able to -say 'You ain't working. It's not my ego on the line. I'm going for the reserve.' I have heard way too many stories and read too many fatalities about people that let their pride kill them while they tried to 'fix' something. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This attribute I disagree with as presented. I don't know anyone who avoided a cutaway inorder to look cool (or not look weak). I think in those emergency situations, your life is all you think of. This was the first thing I thought of when I read this post: QuoteA woman last year did not take the criticism so well and went in because of it. (I believe she had over 1000 jumps). While I cannot blame her decision on the people who gave her so much crap for her 1st cutaway (2 weeks prior, same problem), one cannot help but think that incidents like these might squash some of that Monday morning quarterbacking. Unfortunately, I believe that is the quintessential example right there.Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,625 #64 March 8, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI don't see how the guy who died swooping the pond when high fits any of these categories, except maybe insufficient humility. Course correction? He made a bonehead decision to swoop the pond - prior to setting up for the swoop he could have changed his mind and landed elsewhere.Quote He had so many chemicals in his bloodstream the only thing "elsewhere" was his mind. I don't think course correction was an option. lovely assumption, but thats all it is is an assumption. fact is he died because he turned to low. that is failure to react, you can speculate it was because he was impaired, but again its only a speculation, for all you know he'd made his last 100 hook turns under the same conditions.... The reason he died is that he was severely chemically impaired - that is not in dispute. Everything else followed from that. And he'd not swooped the pond previously. Teaching people how to get out of the corner when they are jumping high is not the way. Getting them not to jump high in the first place is the solution. A lot of the fatalites we read about would have been prevented by the exercise of better judgement before exiting (or even boarding) the plane and better judgement at 1000ft. Concentrating efforts on how to extricate yourself from situations you shouldn't have been in in the first place is secondary, IMO. that is absolutely in dispute, the reason he died was high speed impact with the ground, everything else is simple speculation..I said nothing about swooping that particular pond, i mentioned his previous 100 hook turns, do you have information on his intoxication level on those turns?? you can speculate he reacted badly beacuse of his intoxication level, however it is his reaction that killed him, NOT his intoxication level, but that incident is moot in to the real discussion in this thread.. there is nothing you can do to change what has already happened before you left, or while you were at 3000 feet, no matter why it happened or if it was preventable, there is however quite alot you can do to train yourself to react better when you are in a situation that is happening NOW...training for those eventualities, and examining the personal characteristics that determine how you react in such situations is equally as important as trying to prevent them in the first place. Otherwise your simply 'crying over spilt milk' and that wont do a damn thing to help you save yourself as it is happening.. Well, you do it your way, but I do not need any training in how to extricate myself from a bad situation due to my jumping under the influence of drugs or booze.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Michele 1 #65 March 8, 2004 QuoteMichelle brought something down "safely and confidently..." meanwhile relearning how her canopy was flying that day, that moment, with that issue. I wish I knew how to do that. This is soooo off topic.... But you bring up an interesting point. I wish you had brought it up differently, but that's all right, I'll leave your acrimony to the side, and "literately" explain what I meant.... The first cut was AFF level three. The second incident was "bonehead" on my part, ludicrous line twists and what not. The issue wasn't the line twists, it was my losing alti awareness, and no understanding that the canopy - while flying straight and steady - may still not be a good canopy...I forgot the part of control check that was about "control"....the jump was somewhere in jump number 20-30. I didn't cut, should've cut, and survived unhurt (but scared silly, appropriately so) by dumb luck. I took the canopy control class at jump 40. Learned a ton. Practiced a ton. The last one was an over-under knot discovered at 9k, on jump 65 or something, sunset clear and pull. I had 6,500 feet to discover if I would be landing this canopy, and learn to fly it the way it needed to be flown at that time, in those conditions, that day. For 6,500 feet, I spent the entire time making sure there was flare, nothing else was wrong, that I could turn it both ways, and developing a landing pattern which would bring me in safely and I was confident that I could perform, or I would've cut at 2.5K. Had I not had that kind of alti to learn how that canopy was flying at that day, with that problem, in those conditions, I would've cut in a heart beat. Had I not taken the canopy course as early as I had, I would not have had the ability to assess what was wrong, and find an alternative plan. Quote(Or, to put it in another perspective: If you lurk these forums with well-written stuff and on several occasions people who have forgotten more about the subject at hand than you managed to learn in your short career tell you politely to "shut the f**k up", maybe it is time to do just that. We know you are literate. What else is new?) Thanks for sharing your opinion. What you are not aware of is the personal undertones here between Jan and I. I do not take kindly to people telling me to not think, not consider, not question things that I see, hear, and learn. Further, at no point was I giving anyone tips - I was simply demonstrating a learning curve. I was also showing a bonehead move, and what I learned from that. I also don't appreciate people telling me to "shut the f*&k up"...that is not polite, no matter who you are. If you are wondering about something I post, ask me, don't slam me. If you think I did something wrong, tell me, and show me how to do it better next time. And please don't call me names doing it. And lastly, Jan's issue (this time) apparently is that I didn't say "and pull reserve." What I find interesting - and demonstrative of her personal issues with me - is that there were several other posts which said "cut", but didn't add those last three words. While she puts me down for low jump numbers and "giving tips" on this thread, I fail to see where I did that. Ciels- Michele (edited because of phrasing issues...yes, I'm literate.) ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #66 March 8, 2004 Wow - what a contentious post from innocuous and well meaning beginnings. 1 - Thanks Makeithappen, I think you did nail a lot of it for a general rule - there is always the stupid exception of course. 2 - I think getting hung up on the word "pride" is goofy when all that section meant was don't fixate on a problem to the exclusion of saving yourself. In that context, it's a good note. 3 - Anyone can have an opinion, and we are all smart enough to evaluate the opinion relative to the experience noted. However, I still take the experienced folk more seriously than the newbie speculations. But some newbies are smart and I'll always consider what they have to say to either learn or correct. Can't do that if they are gagged.... 4 - I revised my profile to remove a lot of information after CanuckinUSA got backstabbed from someone here. Sorry, trust until shown otherwise. 5 - Of course someone can't get drugged or drunk in the last 1000 ft of descent. But it is the essence of stupidity to get that way and then go skydive. It's also a loss of someone's friend and someone's child. But if it's a habit, then they are already on borrowed time and they might take me or someone else I care about with them. That's another essence of the same disregard/bad judgement. But arguing it is a lesson learned and it's not that we aren't sensitive to the loss of a friend, even one who made a bad personal decision, but that someone might take this lesson and not make it for themselves someday. my time's up now ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elfanie 0 #67 March 8, 2004 Quote Emergency Procedures are 'Cutaway - Pull Reserve' for partial malfunctions. They are 'Pull Reserve' for total malfunctions. . Not according to what I was taught. I was taught, "Regardless of the malfunction...look red, grab red, look silver, pull red, pull silver." Period. I was told ALWAYS to cut before pulling reserve. (ONLY exemption is an out of sequence deployment, where you pull the PC out before beginning EP's).. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 259 #68 March 8, 2004 QuoteQuote Emergency Procedures are 'Cutaway - Pull Reserve' for partial malfunctions. They are 'Pull Reserve' for total malfunctions. . Not according to what I was taught. I was taught, "Regardless of the malfunction...look red, grab red, look silver, pull red, pull silver." Period. I was told ALWAYS to cut before pulling reserve. (ONLY exemption is an out of sequence deployment, where you pull the PC out before beginning EP's).. That's what most students are taught in their first jump course, primarily because it's best to teach one response to any malfunction to someone who has no experience. Opinions differ on whether someone who is not a student should take the time to cutaway before pulling the reserve on a total or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elfanie 0 #69 March 8, 2004 Quote That's what most students are taught in their first jump course, primarily because it's best to teach one response to any malfunction to someone who has no experience. Ah...but I'm not a student. Quote Opinions differ on whether someone who is not a student should take the time to cutaway before pulling the reserve on a total or not. Ayup...my point exactly. Just talked with a 9000+ jump JM about this yesterday - and he feels that all mals should be dealt with by cutaway-pull reserve... my point was just that opinions differ. (although I really thought that the only controversy was with a PC in tow..not all high speed malfunctions. So some beleive that with baglock you shouldn't cutaway first?) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 259 #70 March 8, 2004 Quote(although I really thought that the only controversy was with a PC in tow..not all high speed malfunctions. So some beleive that with baglock you shouldn't cutaway first?) A baglock is not a total. A total is nothing out. Opinions differ on whether a p/c in tow is a total or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elfanie 0 #71 March 8, 2004 Quote A baglock or a p/c in tow are not totals. A total is nothing out. AH! I just experienced brainlock. I was reading "high speed malfunction" and "low speed malfunction"... not total or partial. gotcha. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites winsor 186 #72 March 8, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuote Emergency Procedures are 'Cutaway - Pull Reserve' for partial malfunctions. They are 'Pull Reserve' for total malfunctions. . Not according to what I was taught. I was taught, "Regardless of the malfunction...look red, grab red, look silver, pull red, pull silver." Period. I was told ALWAYS to cut before pulling reserve. (ONLY exemption is an out of sequence deployment, where you pull the PC out before beginning EP's).. That's what most students are taught in their first jump course, primarily because it's best to teach one response to any malfunction to someone who has no experience. Opinions differ on whether someone who is not a student should take the time to cutaway before pulling the reserve on a total or not. If I have initiated deployment, I always pull the cutaway when going for silver. I use the one-hand one-handle approach, and have successfully executed a gunslinger cutaway (deploying the reserve simultaneously). If I'm rolling out of an airplane that had an engine detonate down low with the pilot yelling "get out of my airplane!," I'm doing so with reserve deployment only. Otherwise I'm going for the main first, and cutting away the main when going for silver. If you make your decision above your hard deck, you should have plenty of time to use the two hands par handle approach, pulling both handles, for any and all emergencies. In any event, having one procedure that provides the greatest likelihood of success beats the hell out of blowing altitude deciding which approach is appropriate. Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Liemberg 0 #73 March 9, 2004 QuoteI do not take kindly to people telling me to not think, not consider, not question things that I see, hear, and learn. I have a fifteen year old here at home that I try to teach to always think, consider and question things that he sees, hears and learns. He does an admirable job at it. About once a week I tell him to shut the f**k up. He is (of course) an 'expert skydiver' with 8 tandemjumps as a passenger, hours and hours of packing parachutes, editing skydiving video's, eavesdropping on first jump courses (he could give a first jump course and other than "wow, this is a YOUNG instructor" the students wouldn't know the difference) parachuting-lectures in every classroom since kindergarten and oh... zero solo jumps. Since he'll be sixteen in may, arrangements are in the making to correct that. (Luckily I found 2 volunteers to do that task. They will give him private tuition, since no one wants him in a class with regular students...) My guess is that somewhere in that first jump course one of his instructors is going to tell him to "SHUT THE F**K UP" I can see it coming...(frankly, I insist on it. And lots of old fashioned boot camp style PLF's ) "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tattoojeff 0 #74 March 9, 2004 exelent post thankyou, i recently read a book called "bone games". outstanding book for all extreme sportsmen and women. there was a chapter about people who survived very bad situations. the book talked about the character trait of being tenacious, never giving up was a huge part of them survivng. even when one part of there mind accepted there death there was another voice that told the dont give up. i feel this is important Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #75 March 9, 2004 Quote "the dead know only one thing, it is better to be alive" *** "Better him than me!" ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Newbie 0 #60 March 8, 2004 QuoteQuoteYou have something like 70-80 jumps in a time span of over two years. You should NOT be providing tips for any jumper. --------------------- I am very grateful for Michele taking the time to share her experience, in order that I might learn something. She has every right to give out as many tips as she sees fit. Ever been on a load of SL jumpers, and they all giving each other tips ? You seem to imply that we, the uneducated/inexperienced, are not smart enough to deceide for ourselves what information to use or loose. I disagree with your last point - read this post here - you might feel differently after doing so. Keeping one's mouth shut I wouldn't consider advising ANYONE on issues of safety - not that i think Michele was doing that in her post, but that's not the issue - pointing an inexperienced jumper in the direction of, or taking them to, an instructor or highly experienced jumper when they need help/advice, is. You might have 5000 jumps and know what you are on about, but me with just over 100, i probably wouldn't even know if i was telling someone something that could potentially endanger them or not, and i'm not going to take that chance by giving out "tips" and "advice" just because everyone else on my load does. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Liemberg 0 #61 March 8, 2004 QuoteYou seem to imply that we, the uneducated/inexperienced, are not smart enough to deceide for ourselves what information to use or loose. During my static line course in 1979 I overheard a conversation of two fellow students in the airport restaurant. A girl was convinced that in case of a malfunction (like: "the parachute doesn't open") her hero, the instructor, would jump out of the plane and come to her rescue. The other student thought that was impossible. The debate ended undecided. Mind you, I was in the course and had jumped just once at that time, they were from the previous course - both had made several jumps already. I don't know if she was told by yet another student that the instructor would come to the rescue or she had found it out all by herself. Doesn't matter, me thinks. Neither does it matter that I was smart enough to understand from day one that instructors were not in the habit of coming to the rescue, should the parachute not open as promised. Sorry to bring the news but the uneducated / inexperienced are not "smart enough". (seen 'a few' go through my classroom since 1985... Take it from me: when they start educating each other unsupervised, disaster strikes...) On several occasions I "brought something down" by sheer luck and walked away unharmed. (It wasn't turbulent, I DID manage to end up in that part of the DZ which is wet and has high grass, the space between the parked car and the concrete pole was just wide enough for my body, etc.) That was dumb. I'm not smart enough. Michelle brought something down "safely and confidently..." meanwhile relearning how her canopy was flying that day, that moment, with that issue. I wish I knew how to do that. (Or, to put it in another perspective: If you lurk these forums with well-written stuff and on several occasions people who have forgotten more about the subject at hand than you managed to learn in your short career tell you politely to "shut the f**k up", maybe it is time to do just that. We know you are literate. What else is new?) "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites XWuffo 0 #62 March 8, 2004 Your example of an "overheard a conversation of two fellow students" is rather lame. Anyone with two brain cells knows that's just being stupid. I'm so tired of this type of student bashing. The only thing I'm trying to say, is that sharing information is the best way to learn, about ALL skydiving related matters. of course I have total respect and trust in my instructor (if I can ever find him on the DZ with a minute to spare) fact is: I will choose to LISTEN to everything that is said, from WHOEVER, and then go and make the effort to find out the correct procedure from and Instructor. My post was about Michele, and not about students teaching each other, which obviously is crazyAs we in Africa know - "If you're going to be dumb - you'd better be tough." - Tonto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flyhi 24 #63 March 8, 2004 Quote Humility This is a jumper's ability to say 'Yo - main - you ain't working. I'm cutting away and pulling my reserve.' You do not have to know which line was over what line or what brake stow did whatever - you have to be able to -say 'You ain't working. It's not my ego on the line. I'm going for the reserve.' I have heard way too many stories and read too many fatalities about people that let their pride kill them while they tried to 'fix' something. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This attribute I disagree with as presented. I don't know anyone who avoided a cutaway inorder to look cool (or not look weak). I think in those emergency situations, your life is all you think of. This was the first thing I thought of when I read this post: QuoteA woman last year did not take the criticism so well and went in because of it. (I believe she had over 1000 jumps). While I cannot blame her decision on the people who gave her so much crap for her 1st cutaway (2 weeks prior, same problem), one cannot help but think that incidents like these might squash some of that Monday morning quarterbacking. Unfortunately, I believe that is the quintessential example right there.Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,625 #64 March 8, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI don't see how the guy who died swooping the pond when high fits any of these categories, except maybe insufficient humility. Course correction? He made a bonehead decision to swoop the pond - prior to setting up for the swoop he could have changed his mind and landed elsewhere.Quote He had so many chemicals in his bloodstream the only thing "elsewhere" was his mind. I don't think course correction was an option. lovely assumption, but thats all it is is an assumption. fact is he died because he turned to low. that is failure to react, you can speculate it was because he was impaired, but again its only a speculation, for all you know he'd made his last 100 hook turns under the same conditions.... The reason he died is that he was severely chemically impaired - that is not in dispute. Everything else followed from that. And he'd not swooped the pond previously. Teaching people how to get out of the corner when they are jumping high is not the way. Getting them not to jump high in the first place is the solution. A lot of the fatalites we read about would have been prevented by the exercise of better judgement before exiting (or even boarding) the plane and better judgement at 1000ft. Concentrating efforts on how to extricate yourself from situations you shouldn't have been in in the first place is secondary, IMO. that is absolutely in dispute, the reason he died was high speed impact with the ground, everything else is simple speculation..I said nothing about swooping that particular pond, i mentioned his previous 100 hook turns, do you have information on his intoxication level on those turns?? you can speculate he reacted badly beacuse of his intoxication level, however it is his reaction that killed him, NOT his intoxication level, but that incident is moot in to the real discussion in this thread.. there is nothing you can do to change what has already happened before you left, or while you were at 3000 feet, no matter why it happened or if it was preventable, there is however quite alot you can do to train yourself to react better when you are in a situation that is happening NOW...training for those eventualities, and examining the personal characteristics that determine how you react in such situations is equally as important as trying to prevent them in the first place. Otherwise your simply 'crying over spilt milk' and that wont do a damn thing to help you save yourself as it is happening.. Well, you do it your way, but I do not need any training in how to extricate myself from a bad situation due to my jumping under the influence of drugs or booze.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Michele 1 #65 March 8, 2004 QuoteMichelle brought something down "safely and confidently..." meanwhile relearning how her canopy was flying that day, that moment, with that issue. I wish I knew how to do that. This is soooo off topic.... But you bring up an interesting point. I wish you had brought it up differently, but that's all right, I'll leave your acrimony to the side, and "literately" explain what I meant.... The first cut was AFF level three. The second incident was "bonehead" on my part, ludicrous line twists and what not. The issue wasn't the line twists, it was my losing alti awareness, and no understanding that the canopy - while flying straight and steady - may still not be a good canopy...I forgot the part of control check that was about "control"....the jump was somewhere in jump number 20-30. I didn't cut, should've cut, and survived unhurt (but scared silly, appropriately so) by dumb luck. I took the canopy control class at jump 40. Learned a ton. Practiced a ton. The last one was an over-under knot discovered at 9k, on jump 65 or something, sunset clear and pull. I had 6,500 feet to discover if I would be landing this canopy, and learn to fly it the way it needed to be flown at that time, in those conditions, that day. For 6,500 feet, I spent the entire time making sure there was flare, nothing else was wrong, that I could turn it both ways, and developing a landing pattern which would bring me in safely and I was confident that I could perform, or I would've cut at 2.5K. Had I not had that kind of alti to learn how that canopy was flying at that day, with that problem, in those conditions, I would've cut in a heart beat. Had I not taken the canopy course as early as I had, I would not have had the ability to assess what was wrong, and find an alternative plan. Quote(Or, to put it in another perspective: If you lurk these forums with well-written stuff and on several occasions people who have forgotten more about the subject at hand than you managed to learn in your short career tell you politely to "shut the f**k up", maybe it is time to do just that. We know you are literate. What else is new?) Thanks for sharing your opinion. What you are not aware of is the personal undertones here between Jan and I. I do not take kindly to people telling me to not think, not consider, not question things that I see, hear, and learn. Further, at no point was I giving anyone tips - I was simply demonstrating a learning curve. I was also showing a bonehead move, and what I learned from that. I also don't appreciate people telling me to "shut the f*&k up"...that is not polite, no matter who you are. If you are wondering about something I post, ask me, don't slam me. If you think I did something wrong, tell me, and show me how to do it better next time. And please don't call me names doing it. And lastly, Jan's issue (this time) apparently is that I didn't say "and pull reserve." What I find interesting - and demonstrative of her personal issues with me - is that there were several other posts which said "cut", but didn't add those last three words. While she puts me down for low jump numbers and "giving tips" on this thread, I fail to see where I did that. Ciels- Michele (edited because of phrasing issues...yes, I'm literate.) ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #66 March 8, 2004 Wow - what a contentious post from innocuous and well meaning beginnings. 1 - Thanks Makeithappen, I think you did nail a lot of it for a general rule - there is always the stupid exception of course. 2 - I think getting hung up on the word "pride" is goofy when all that section meant was don't fixate on a problem to the exclusion of saving yourself. In that context, it's a good note. 3 - Anyone can have an opinion, and we are all smart enough to evaluate the opinion relative to the experience noted. However, I still take the experienced folk more seriously than the newbie speculations. But some newbies are smart and I'll always consider what they have to say to either learn or correct. Can't do that if they are gagged.... 4 - I revised my profile to remove a lot of information after CanuckinUSA got backstabbed from someone here. Sorry, trust until shown otherwise. 5 - Of course someone can't get drugged or drunk in the last 1000 ft of descent. But it is the essence of stupidity to get that way and then go skydive. It's also a loss of someone's friend and someone's child. But if it's a habit, then they are already on borrowed time and they might take me or someone else I care about with them. That's another essence of the same disregard/bad judgement. But arguing it is a lesson learned and it's not that we aren't sensitive to the loss of a friend, even one who made a bad personal decision, but that someone might take this lesson and not make it for themselves someday. my time's up now ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elfanie 0 #67 March 8, 2004 Quote Emergency Procedures are 'Cutaway - Pull Reserve' for partial malfunctions. They are 'Pull Reserve' for total malfunctions. . Not according to what I was taught. I was taught, "Regardless of the malfunction...look red, grab red, look silver, pull red, pull silver." Period. I was told ALWAYS to cut before pulling reserve. (ONLY exemption is an out of sequence deployment, where you pull the PC out before beginning EP's).. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 259 #68 March 8, 2004 QuoteQuote Emergency Procedures are 'Cutaway - Pull Reserve' for partial malfunctions. They are 'Pull Reserve' for total malfunctions. . Not according to what I was taught. I was taught, "Regardless of the malfunction...look red, grab red, look silver, pull red, pull silver." Period. I was told ALWAYS to cut before pulling reserve. (ONLY exemption is an out of sequence deployment, where you pull the PC out before beginning EP's).. That's what most students are taught in their first jump course, primarily because it's best to teach one response to any malfunction to someone who has no experience. Opinions differ on whether someone who is not a student should take the time to cutaway before pulling the reserve on a total or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elfanie 0 #69 March 8, 2004 Quote That's what most students are taught in their first jump course, primarily because it's best to teach one response to any malfunction to someone who has no experience. Ah...but I'm not a student. Quote Opinions differ on whether someone who is not a student should take the time to cutaway before pulling the reserve on a total or not. Ayup...my point exactly. Just talked with a 9000+ jump JM about this yesterday - and he feels that all mals should be dealt with by cutaway-pull reserve... my point was just that opinions differ. (although I really thought that the only controversy was with a PC in tow..not all high speed malfunctions. So some beleive that with baglock you shouldn't cutaway first?) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 259 #70 March 8, 2004 Quote(although I really thought that the only controversy was with a PC in tow..not all high speed malfunctions. So some beleive that with baglock you shouldn't cutaway first?) A baglock is not a total. A total is nothing out. Opinions differ on whether a p/c in tow is a total or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elfanie 0 #71 March 8, 2004 Quote A baglock or a p/c in tow are not totals. A total is nothing out. AH! I just experienced brainlock. I was reading "high speed malfunction" and "low speed malfunction"... not total or partial. gotcha. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites winsor 186 #72 March 8, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuote Emergency Procedures are 'Cutaway - Pull Reserve' for partial malfunctions. They are 'Pull Reserve' for total malfunctions. . Not according to what I was taught. I was taught, "Regardless of the malfunction...look red, grab red, look silver, pull red, pull silver." Period. I was told ALWAYS to cut before pulling reserve. (ONLY exemption is an out of sequence deployment, where you pull the PC out before beginning EP's).. That's what most students are taught in their first jump course, primarily because it's best to teach one response to any malfunction to someone who has no experience. Opinions differ on whether someone who is not a student should take the time to cutaway before pulling the reserve on a total or not. If I have initiated deployment, I always pull the cutaway when going for silver. I use the one-hand one-handle approach, and have successfully executed a gunslinger cutaway (deploying the reserve simultaneously). If I'm rolling out of an airplane that had an engine detonate down low with the pilot yelling "get out of my airplane!," I'm doing so with reserve deployment only. Otherwise I'm going for the main first, and cutting away the main when going for silver. If you make your decision above your hard deck, you should have plenty of time to use the two hands par handle approach, pulling both handles, for any and all emergencies. In any event, having one procedure that provides the greatest likelihood of success beats the hell out of blowing altitude deciding which approach is appropriate. Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Liemberg 0 #73 March 9, 2004 QuoteI do not take kindly to people telling me to not think, not consider, not question things that I see, hear, and learn. I have a fifteen year old here at home that I try to teach to always think, consider and question things that he sees, hears and learns. He does an admirable job at it. About once a week I tell him to shut the f**k up. He is (of course) an 'expert skydiver' with 8 tandemjumps as a passenger, hours and hours of packing parachutes, editing skydiving video's, eavesdropping on first jump courses (he could give a first jump course and other than "wow, this is a YOUNG instructor" the students wouldn't know the difference) parachuting-lectures in every classroom since kindergarten and oh... zero solo jumps. Since he'll be sixteen in may, arrangements are in the making to correct that. (Luckily I found 2 volunteers to do that task. They will give him private tuition, since no one wants him in a class with regular students...) My guess is that somewhere in that first jump course one of his instructors is going to tell him to "SHUT THE F**K UP" I can see it coming...(frankly, I insist on it. And lots of old fashioned boot camp style PLF's ) "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tattoojeff 0 #74 March 9, 2004 exelent post thankyou, i recently read a book called "bone games". outstanding book for all extreme sportsmen and women. there was a chapter about people who survived very bad situations. the book talked about the character trait of being tenacious, never giving up was a huge part of them survivng. even when one part of there mind accepted there death there was another voice that told the dont give up. i feel this is important Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #75 March 9, 2004 Quote "the dead know only one thing, it is better to be alive" *** "Better him than me!" ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Liemberg 0 #61 March 8, 2004 QuoteYou seem to imply that we, the uneducated/inexperienced, are not smart enough to deceide for ourselves what information to use or loose. During my static line course in 1979 I overheard a conversation of two fellow students in the airport restaurant. A girl was convinced that in case of a malfunction (like: "the parachute doesn't open") her hero, the instructor, would jump out of the plane and come to her rescue. The other student thought that was impossible. The debate ended undecided. Mind you, I was in the course and had jumped just once at that time, they were from the previous course - both had made several jumps already. I don't know if she was told by yet another student that the instructor would come to the rescue or she had found it out all by herself. Doesn't matter, me thinks. Neither does it matter that I was smart enough to understand from day one that instructors were not in the habit of coming to the rescue, should the parachute not open as promised. Sorry to bring the news but the uneducated / inexperienced are not "smart enough". (seen 'a few' go through my classroom since 1985... Take it from me: when they start educating each other unsupervised, disaster strikes...) On several occasions I "brought something down" by sheer luck and walked away unharmed. (It wasn't turbulent, I DID manage to end up in that part of the DZ which is wet and has high grass, the space between the parked car and the concrete pole was just wide enough for my body, etc.) That was dumb. I'm not smart enough. Michelle brought something down "safely and confidently..." meanwhile relearning how her canopy was flying that day, that moment, with that issue. I wish I knew how to do that. (Or, to put it in another perspective: If you lurk these forums with well-written stuff and on several occasions people who have forgotten more about the subject at hand than you managed to learn in your short career tell you politely to "shut the f**k up", maybe it is time to do just that. We know you are literate. What else is new?) "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XWuffo 0 #62 March 8, 2004 Your example of an "overheard a conversation of two fellow students" is rather lame. Anyone with two brain cells knows that's just being stupid. I'm so tired of this type of student bashing. The only thing I'm trying to say, is that sharing information is the best way to learn, about ALL skydiving related matters. of course I have total respect and trust in my instructor (if I can ever find him on the DZ with a minute to spare) fact is: I will choose to LISTEN to everything that is said, from WHOEVER, and then go and make the effort to find out the correct procedure from and Instructor. My post was about Michele, and not about students teaching each other, which obviously is crazyAs we in Africa know - "If you're going to be dumb - you'd better be tough." - Tonto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyhi 24 #63 March 8, 2004 Quote Humility This is a jumper's ability to say 'Yo - main - you ain't working. I'm cutting away and pulling my reserve.' You do not have to know which line was over what line or what brake stow did whatever - you have to be able to -say 'You ain't working. It's not my ego on the line. I'm going for the reserve.' I have heard way too many stories and read too many fatalities about people that let their pride kill them while they tried to 'fix' something. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This attribute I disagree with as presented. I don't know anyone who avoided a cutaway inorder to look cool (or not look weak). I think in those emergency situations, your life is all you think of. This was the first thing I thought of when I read this post: QuoteA woman last year did not take the criticism so well and went in because of it. (I believe she had over 1000 jumps). While I cannot blame her decision on the people who gave her so much crap for her 1st cutaway (2 weeks prior, same problem), one cannot help but think that incidents like these might squash some of that Monday morning quarterbacking. Unfortunately, I believe that is the quintessential example right there.Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #64 March 8, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI don't see how the guy who died swooping the pond when high fits any of these categories, except maybe insufficient humility. Course correction? He made a bonehead decision to swoop the pond - prior to setting up for the swoop he could have changed his mind and landed elsewhere.Quote He had so many chemicals in his bloodstream the only thing "elsewhere" was his mind. I don't think course correction was an option. lovely assumption, but thats all it is is an assumption. fact is he died because he turned to low. that is failure to react, you can speculate it was because he was impaired, but again its only a speculation, for all you know he'd made his last 100 hook turns under the same conditions.... The reason he died is that he was severely chemically impaired - that is not in dispute. Everything else followed from that. And he'd not swooped the pond previously. Teaching people how to get out of the corner when they are jumping high is not the way. Getting them not to jump high in the first place is the solution. A lot of the fatalites we read about would have been prevented by the exercise of better judgement before exiting (or even boarding) the plane and better judgement at 1000ft. Concentrating efforts on how to extricate yourself from situations you shouldn't have been in in the first place is secondary, IMO. that is absolutely in dispute, the reason he died was high speed impact with the ground, everything else is simple speculation..I said nothing about swooping that particular pond, i mentioned his previous 100 hook turns, do you have information on his intoxication level on those turns?? you can speculate he reacted badly beacuse of his intoxication level, however it is his reaction that killed him, NOT his intoxication level, but that incident is moot in to the real discussion in this thread.. there is nothing you can do to change what has already happened before you left, or while you were at 3000 feet, no matter why it happened or if it was preventable, there is however quite alot you can do to train yourself to react better when you are in a situation that is happening NOW...training for those eventualities, and examining the personal characteristics that determine how you react in such situations is equally as important as trying to prevent them in the first place. Otherwise your simply 'crying over spilt milk' and that wont do a damn thing to help you save yourself as it is happening.. Well, you do it your way, but I do not need any training in how to extricate myself from a bad situation due to my jumping under the influence of drugs or booze.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Michele 1 #65 March 8, 2004 QuoteMichelle brought something down "safely and confidently..." meanwhile relearning how her canopy was flying that day, that moment, with that issue. I wish I knew how to do that. This is soooo off topic.... But you bring up an interesting point. I wish you had brought it up differently, but that's all right, I'll leave your acrimony to the side, and "literately" explain what I meant.... The first cut was AFF level three. The second incident was "bonehead" on my part, ludicrous line twists and what not. The issue wasn't the line twists, it was my losing alti awareness, and no understanding that the canopy - while flying straight and steady - may still not be a good canopy...I forgot the part of control check that was about "control"....the jump was somewhere in jump number 20-30. I didn't cut, should've cut, and survived unhurt (but scared silly, appropriately so) by dumb luck. I took the canopy control class at jump 40. Learned a ton. Practiced a ton. The last one was an over-under knot discovered at 9k, on jump 65 or something, sunset clear and pull. I had 6,500 feet to discover if I would be landing this canopy, and learn to fly it the way it needed to be flown at that time, in those conditions, that day. For 6,500 feet, I spent the entire time making sure there was flare, nothing else was wrong, that I could turn it both ways, and developing a landing pattern which would bring me in safely and I was confident that I could perform, or I would've cut at 2.5K. Had I not had that kind of alti to learn how that canopy was flying at that day, with that problem, in those conditions, I would've cut in a heart beat. Had I not taken the canopy course as early as I had, I would not have had the ability to assess what was wrong, and find an alternative plan. Quote(Or, to put it in another perspective: If you lurk these forums with well-written stuff and on several occasions people who have forgotten more about the subject at hand than you managed to learn in your short career tell you politely to "shut the f**k up", maybe it is time to do just that. We know you are literate. What else is new?) Thanks for sharing your opinion. What you are not aware of is the personal undertones here between Jan and I. I do not take kindly to people telling me to not think, not consider, not question things that I see, hear, and learn. Further, at no point was I giving anyone tips - I was simply demonstrating a learning curve. I was also showing a bonehead move, and what I learned from that. I also don't appreciate people telling me to "shut the f*&k up"...that is not polite, no matter who you are. If you are wondering about something I post, ask me, don't slam me. If you think I did something wrong, tell me, and show me how to do it better next time. And please don't call me names doing it. And lastly, Jan's issue (this time) apparently is that I didn't say "and pull reserve." What I find interesting - and demonstrative of her personal issues with me - is that there were several other posts which said "cut", but didn't add those last three words. While she puts me down for low jump numbers and "giving tips" on this thread, I fail to see where I did that. Ciels- Michele (edited because of phrasing issues...yes, I'm literate.) ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #66 March 8, 2004 Wow - what a contentious post from innocuous and well meaning beginnings. 1 - Thanks Makeithappen, I think you did nail a lot of it for a general rule - there is always the stupid exception of course. 2 - I think getting hung up on the word "pride" is goofy when all that section meant was don't fixate on a problem to the exclusion of saving yourself. In that context, it's a good note. 3 - Anyone can have an opinion, and we are all smart enough to evaluate the opinion relative to the experience noted. However, I still take the experienced folk more seriously than the newbie speculations. But some newbies are smart and I'll always consider what they have to say to either learn or correct. Can't do that if they are gagged.... 4 - I revised my profile to remove a lot of information after CanuckinUSA got backstabbed from someone here. Sorry, trust until shown otherwise. 5 - Of course someone can't get drugged or drunk in the last 1000 ft of descent. But it is the essence of stupidity to get that way and then go skydive. It's also a loss of someone's friend and someone's child. But if it's a habit, then they are already on borrowed time and they might take me or someone else I care about with them. That's another essence of the same disregard/bad judgement. But arguing it is a lesson learned and it's not that we aren't sensitive to the loss of a friend, even one who made a bad personal decision, but that someone might take this lesson and not make it for themselves someday. my time's up now ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elfanie 0 #67 March 8, 2004 Quote Emergency Procedures are 'Cutaway - Pull Reserve' for partial malfunctions. They are 'Pull Reserve' for total malfunctions. . Not according to what I was taught. I was taught, "Regardless of the malfunction...look red, grab red, look silver, pull red, pull silver." Period. I was told ALWAYS to cut before pulling reserve. (ONLY exemption is an out of sequence deployment, where you pull the PC out before beginning EP's).. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 259 #68 March 8, 2004 QuoteQuote Emergency Procedures are 'Cutaway - Pull Reserve' for partial malfunctions. They are 'Pull Reserve' for total malfunctions. . Not according to what I was taught. I was taught, "Regardless of the malfunction...look red, grab red, look silver, pull red, pull silver." Period. I was told ALWAYS to cut before pulling reserve. (ONLY exemption is an out of sequence deployment, where you pull the PC out before beginning EP's).. That's what most students are taught in their first jump course, primarily because it's best to teach one response to any malfunction to someone who has no experience. Opinions differ on whether someone who is not a student should take the time to cutaway before pulling the reserve on a total or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elfanie 0 #69 March 8, 2004 Quote That's what most students are taught in their first jump course, primarily because it's best to teach one response to any malfunction to someone who has no experience. Ah...but I'm not a student. Quote Opinions differ on whether someone who is not a student should take the time to cutaway before pulling the reserve on a total or not. Ayup...my point exactly. Just talked with a 9000+ jump JM about this yesterday - and he feels that all mals should be dealt with by cutaway-pull reserve... my point was just that opinions differ. (although I really thought that the only controversy was with a PC in tow..not all high speed malfunctions. So some beleive that with baglock you shouldn't cutaway first?) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 259 #70 March 8, 2004 Quote(although I really thought that the only controversy was with a PC in tow..not all high speed malfunctions. So some beleive that with baglock you shouldn't cutaway first?) A baglock is not a total. A total is nothing out. Opinions differ on whether a p/c in tow is a total or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elfanie 0 #71 March 8, 2004 Quote A baglock or a p/c in tow are not totals. A total is nothing out. AH! I just experienced brainlock. I was reading "high speed malfunction" and "low speed malfunction"... not total or partial. gotcha. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites winsor 186 #72 March 8, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuote Emergency Procedures are 'Cutaway - Pull Reserve' for partial malfunctions. They are 'Pull Reserve' for total malfunctions. . Not according to what I was taught. I was taught, "Regardless of the malfunction...look red, grab red, look silver, pull red, pull silver." Period. I was told ALWAYS to cut before pulling reserve. (ONLY exemption is an out of sequence deployment, where you pull the PC out before beginning EP's).. That's what most students are taught in their first jump course, primarily because it's best to teach one response to any malfunction to someone who has no experience. Opinions differ on whether someone who is not a student should take the time to cutaway before pulling the reserve on a total or not. If I have initiated deployment, I always pull the cutaway when going for silver. I use the one-hand one-handle approach, and have successfully executed a gunslinger cutaway (deploying the reserve simultaneously). If I'm rolling out of an airplane that had an engine detonate down low with the pilot yelling "get out of my airplane!," I'm doing so with reserve deployment only. Otherwise I'm going for the main first, and cutting away the main when going for silver. If you make your decision above your hard deck, you should have plenty of time to use the two hands par handle approach, pulling both handles, for any and all emergencies. In any event, having one procedure that provides the greatest likelihood of success beats the hell out of blowing altitude deciding which approach is appropriate. Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Liemberg 0 #73 March 9, 2004 QuoteI do not take kindly to people telling me to not think, not consider, not question things that I see, hear, and learn. I have a fifteen year old here at home that I try to teach to always think, consider and question things that he sees, hears and learns. He does an admirable job at it. About once a week I tell him to shut the f**k up. He is (of course) an 'expert skydiver' with 8 tandemjumps as a passenger, hours and hours of packing parachutes, editing skydiving video's, eavesdropping on first jump courses (he could give a first jump course and other than "wow, this is a YOUNG instructor" the students wouldn't know the difference) parachuting-lectures in every classroom since kindergarten and oh... zero solo jumps. Since he'll be sixteen in may, arrangements are in the making to correct that. (Luckily I found 2 volunteers to do that task. They will give him private tuition, since no one wants him in a class with regular students...) My guess is that somewhere in that first jump course one of his instructors is going to tell him to "SHUT THE F**K UP" I can see it coming...(frankly, I insist on it. And lots of old fashioned boot camp style PLF's ) "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tattoojeff 0 #74 March 9, 2004 exelent post thankyou, i recently read a book called "bone games". outstanding book for all extreme sportsmen and women. there was a chapter about people who survived very bad situations. the book talked about the character trait of being tenacious, never giving up was a huge part of them survivng. even when one part of there mind accepted there death there was another voice that told the dont give up. i feel this is important Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #75 March 9, 2004 Quote "the dead know only one thing, it is better to be alive" *** "Better him than me!" ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Michele 1 #65 March 8, 2004 QuoteMichelle brought something down "safely and confidently..." meanwhile relearning how her canopy was flying that day, that moment, with that issue. I wish I knew how to do that. This is soooo off topic.... But you bring up an interesting point. I wish you had brought it up differently, but that's all right, I'll leave your acrimony to the side, and "literately" explain what I meant.... The first cut was AFF level three. The second incident was "bonehead" on my part, ludicrous line twists and what not. The issue wasn't the line twists, it was my losing alti awareness, and no understanding that the canopy - while flying straight and steady - may still not be a good canopy...I forgot the part of control check that was about "control"....the jump was somewhere in jump number 20-30. I didn't cut, should've cut, and survived unhurt (but scared silly, appropriately so) by dumb luck. I took the canopy control class at jump 40. Learned a ton. Practiced a ton. The last one was an over-under knot discovered at 9k, on jump 65 or something, sunset clear and pull. I had 6,500 feet to discover if I would be landing this canopy, and learn to fly it the way it needed to be flown at that time, in those conditions, that day. For 6,500 feet, I spent the entire time making sure there was flare, nothing else was wrong, that I could turn it both ways, and developing a landing pattern which would bring me in safely and I was confident that I could perform, or I would've cut at 2.5K. Had I not had that kind of alti to learn how that canopy was flying at that day, with that problem, in those conditions, I would've cut in a heart beat. Had I not taken the canopy course as early as I had, I would not have had the ability to assess what was wrong, and find an alternative plan. Quote(Or, to put it in another perspective: If you lurk these forums with well-written stuff and on several occasions people who have forgotten more about the subject at hand than you managed to learn in your short career tell you politely to "shut the f**k up", maybe it is time to do just that. We know you are literate. What else is new?) Thanks for sharing your opinion. What you are not aware of is the personal undertones here between Jan and I. I do not take kindly to people telling me to not think, not consider, not question things that I see, hear, and learn. Further, at no point was I giving anyone tips - I was simply demonstrating a learning curve. I was also showing a bonehead move, and what I learned from that. I also don't appreciate people telling me to "shut the f*&k up"...that is not polite, no matter who you are. If you are wondering about something I post, ask me, don't slam me. If you think I did something wrong, tell me, and show me how to do it better next time. And please don't call me names doing it. And lastly, Jan's issue (this time) apparently is that I didn't say "and pull reserve." What I find interesting - and demonstrative of her personal issues with me - is that there were several other posts which said "cut", but didn't add those last three words. While she puts me down for low jump numbers and "giving tips" on this thread, I fail to see where I did that. Ciels- Michele (edited because of phrasing issues...yes, I'm literate.) ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #66 March 8, 2004 Wow - what a contentious post from innocuous and well meaning beginnings. 1 - Thanks Makeithappen, I think you did nail a lot of it for a general rule - there is always the stupid exception of course. 2 - I think getting hung up on the word "pride" is goofy when all that section meant was don't fixate on a problem to the exclusion of saving yourself. In that context, it's a good note. 3 - Anyone can have an opinion, and we are all smart enough to evaluate the opinion relative to the experience noted. However, I still take the experienced folk more seriously than the newbie speculations. But some newbies are smart and I'll always consider what they have to say to either learn or correct. Can't do that if they are gagged.... 4 - I revised my profile to remove a lot of information after CanuckinUSA got backstabbed from someone here. Sorry, trust until shown otherwise. 5 - Of course someone can't get drugged or drunk in the last 1000 ft of descent. But it is the essence of stupidity to get that way and then go skydive. It's also a loss of someone's friend and someone's child. But if it's a habit, then they are already on borrowed time and they might take me or someone else I care about with them. That's another essence of the same disregard/bad judgement. But arguing it is a lesson learned and it's not that we aren't sensitive to the loss of a friend, even one who made a bad personal decision, but that someone might take this lesson and not make it for themselves someday. my time's up now ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #67 March 8, 2004 Quote Emergency Procedures are 'Cutaway - Pull Reserve' for partial malfunctions. They are 'Pull Reserve' for total malfunctions. . Not according to what I was taught. I was taught, "Regardless of the malfunction...look red, grab red, look silver, pull red, pull silver." Period. I was told ALWAYS to cut before pulling reserve. (ONLY exemption is an out of sequence deployment, where you pull the PC out before beginning EP's).. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #68 March 8, 2004 QuoteQuote Emergency Procedures are 'Cutaway - Pull Reserve' for partial malfunctions. They are 'Pull Reserve' for total malfunctions. . Not according to what I was taught. I was taught, "Regardless of the malfunction...look red, grab red, look silver, pull red, pull silver." Period. I was told ALWAYS to cut before pulling reserve. (ONLY exemption is an out of sequence deployment, where you pull the PC out before beginning EP's).. That's what most students are taught in their first jump course, primarily because it's best to teach one response to any malfunction to someone who has no experience. Opinions differ on whether someone who is not a student should take the time to cutaway before pulling the reserve on a total or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #69 March 8, 2004 Quote That's what most students are taught in their first jump course, primarily because it's best to teach one response to any malfunction to someone who has no experience. Ah...but I'm not a student. Quote Opinions differ on whether someone who is not a student should take the time to cutaway before pulling the reserve on a total or not. Ayup...my point exactly. Just talked with a 9000+ jump JM about this yesterday - and he feels that all mals should be dealt with by cutaway-pull reserve... my point was just that opinions differ. (although I really thought that the only controversy was with a PC in tow..not all high speed malfunctions. So some beleive that with baglock you shouldn't cutaway first?) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #70 March 8, 2004 Quote(although I really thought that the only controversy was with a PC in tow..not all high speed malfunctions. So some beleive that with baglock you shouldn't cutaway first?) A baglock is not a total. A total is nothing out. Opinions differ on whether a p/c in tow is a total or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #71 March 8, 2004 Quote A baglock or a p/c in tow are not totals. A total is nothing out. AH! I just experienced brainlock. I was reading "high speed malfunction" and "low speed malfunction"... not total or partial. gotcha. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 186 #72 March 8, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuote Emergency Procedures are 'Cutaway - Pull Reserve' for partial malfunctions. They are 'Pull Reserve' for total malfunctions. . Not according to what I was taught. I was taught, "Regardless of the malfunction...look red, grab red, look silver, pull red, pull silver." Period. I was told ALWAYS to cut before pulling reserve. (ONLY exemption is an out of sequence deployment, where you pull the PC out before beginning EP's).. That's what most students are taught in their first jump course, primarily because it's best to teach one response to any malfunction to someone who has no experience. Opinions differ on whether someone who is not a student should take the time to cutaway before pulling the reserve on a total or not. If I have initiated deployment, I always pull the cutaway when going for silver. I use the one-hand one-handle approach, and have successfully executed a gunslinger cutaway (deploying the reserve simultaneously). If I'm rolling out of an airplane that had an engine detonate down low with the pilot yelling "get out of my airplane!," I'm doing so with reserve deployment only. Otherwise I'm going for the main first, and cutting away the main when going for silver. If you make your decision above your hard deck, you should have plenty of time to use the two hands par handle approach, pulling both handles, for any and all emergencies. In any event, having one procedure that provides the greatest likelihood of success beats the hell out of blowing altitude deciding which approach is appropriate. Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #73 March 9, 2004 QuoteI do not take kindly to people telling me to not think, not consider, not question things that I see, hear, and learn. I have a fifteen year old here at home that I try to teach to always think, consider and question things that he sees, hears and learns. He does an admirable job at it. About once a week I tell him to shut the f**k up. He is (of course) an 'expert skydiver' with 8 tandemjumps as a passenger, hours and hours of packing parachutes, editing skydiving video's, eavesdropping on first jump courses (he could give a first jump course and other than "wow, this is a YOUNG instructor" the students wouldn't know the difference) parachuting-lectures in every classroom since kindergarten and oh... zero solo jumps. Since he'll be sixteen in may, arrangements are in the making to correct that. (Luckily I found 2 volunteers to do that task. They will give him private tuition, since no one wants him in a class with regular students...) My guess is that somewhere in that first jump course one of his instructors is going to tell him to "SHUT THE F**K UP" I can see it coming...(frankly, I insist on it. And lots of old fashioned boot camp style PLF's ) "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tattoojeff 0 #74 March 9, 2004 exelent post thankyou, i recently read a book called "bone games". outstanding book for all extreme sportsmen and women. there was a chapter about people who survived very bad situations. the book talked about the character trait of being tenacious, never giving up was a huge part of them survivng. even when one part of there mind accepted there death there was another voice that told the dont give up. i feel this is important Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #75 March 9, 2004 Quote "the dead know only one thing, it is better to be alive" *** "Better him than me!" ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
