Who Lives and Who Dies????

[MakeItHappen 15]

Who Lives and Who Dies????

This is a tiny brain-dump from my mind - only meant to make you think. It is a combination of fact (that I can verify-if you really want me to), intuition and conclusions (or speculation). It is a work in progress. I will not debate my POV, but will accept evaluations about it.

I have known well over 100 people that have lost their life on a jump. Many others I have read about. I often wondered what the difference was 'Who Lives and Who Dies?'

Then there are the friends, several hundred now, that have injured themselves so badly that they often regret ever jumping.

I have met jumpers that everyone said that guy was going to go in. Sure enough, he did. The sad part was that sometimes they took someone with them.

I have met jumpers that did everything right, asked all the right questions, never did anything reckless, and then they went in doing something that was completely unexpected. All we could say or do was that it was such unexpected behavior and scratch our heads with bewilderment.

I have met jumpers that did everything right on their last jump and still died.

Is there a way to determine 'Who Lives and Who Dies?'

In an absolute sense, no there is no way to absolutely, positively know 'Who Lives and Who Dies?'

On another more intrinsic, emotional or sixth sense level, there are certain factors that tell us 'Who Lives and Who Dies?'

These are factors that I think are relevant:
- independence of thought
- independence in action
- proactive in the face of uncertainty
- self-confidence
- humility
- course correction

I will exclude the jumpers that did everything right from the rest of this discussion - mainly because they had all of these attributes. Their gear or someone else ate them up.

Independence of thought

This is a jumper's ability to go beyond the rote information he is taught and apply it to new situations. A common lesson - even for students - is to apply a landing pattern to a field that is 'off-target'. A common lesson for experienced jumpers is to apply a modified pattern into a tight landing area with high winds. IOW, you take the generalized version of the knowledge you know and apply it to a new, perhaps completely unforeseen, situation.

Independence in action

This is a jumper's ability to execute his independent thoughts. It happens when you say to yourself 'Well - no one ever showed or told me EXACTLY how to do xyz like this, but I think I can do it this way and I'm going for it'. It is kind of like doing a sashay to avoid a collision, 20 ft off the deck, when no one ever told you that could be used for that purpose.

Proactive in the face of uncertainty

This is a jumper's ability to DO SOMETHING to save his life. All too often, my friends went in dicking around with something that could not be fixed in real time with the belief that they knew what the problem was and could fix it in real time.

I think that if we have an attitude that 'I don't care what the problem is, I'm outta here' cutaway and pull reserve, we would see fewer fatalities.

Bottom Line is that you do not have to come down from any jump, malfunction or not, with 100% accurate description of everything that happened. Some stuff you just do not know. Deal with it!

Self-confidence

Jumpers' usually have a lot of self-confidence. There are times when this is not true. Some jumpers get self-doubts if they have the same malfunction again. This has bounced more than one person. You have to believe in yourself and your abilities to react properly. If not, stop jumping.

Humility

This is a jumper's ability to say 'Yo - main - you ain't working. I'm cutting away and pulling my reserve.' You do not have to know which line was over what line or what brake stow did whatever - you have to be able to -say 'You ain't working. It's not my ego on the line. I'm going for the reserve.'

I have heard way too many stories and read too many fatalities about people that let their pride kill them while they tried to 'fix' something.

Course correction

This is a jumper's ability to steer back to the right path. We all screw up. We all make bone-head decisions. We all have the ability to get back on track.

…

I think you need all six attributes, in sufficient quantities, to Live!

If you lack in any of the attributes or only have 4 of 6, then you just might die.

It's only a theory.

..

I'm not done - but this is the first installment - flame away

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[DeNReN 0]

Well I read the 1st half of your post......

Any one of us could be hit by a bus tommorrow....

[Decibel 0]

Good food for thought, if nothing else. Looking forward to more.

[skybytch 259]

After applying those six attributes to the people on my dead friends list and the incidents that killed them... I think you've hit the nail on the head.

And now I'm applying those six attributes to myself. And wondering.

Thanks for posting this Jan.

For those of you who can't be bothered to read the whole post - open your mind, take the time and read it. Twice. Someone who has over 100 names on their dead friends list just might be someone you can learn something from. Something that might keep you alive someday.

[jumpinjackflash 0]

I thought it great too Lisa.


But couldn't find out ANYTHING about the author.


Why do people not fill out their profiles?


Not trying to hijack this thread, truly, just trying to learn more about the author.




jjf

It's a gas, gas, gas...

[jumpinjackflash 0]

K Fuckit

I'm listening to one of Jan's Radio Interviews.

Connected to her website.

Obviously were dealing with someone that is, um, well, professional.

I don't want any cheese with my Wine, but, I'd still wish everyone would keep their profile updated, helps us dummies know "WHO" is talking.


peace,


jack

It's a gas, gas, gas...

[skybytch 259]

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Obviously were dealing with someone that is, um, well, professional.

For those who don't know, the author has been jumping for 20+ years, has thousands of jumps, is one of the most intelligent people I've ever met and over the years has passed on an huge amount of safety related information to her fellow jumpers.

She's also a USPA national director.

But really, none of that has anything to do with this thread. imho it would be just as valuable if it were written by someone with 100 jumps - although I doubt they'd have the perspective needed to write it.

[EricaH 0]

Thank you for your insight! !!!
Wow - 100 friends
Now I have something to think about whilst going to sleep, read again & mull over. Esp in light of coming safty day & time of re-currency for many northern jumpers.

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[D22369 0]

That is a most excellent insight, Thanks for sharing it. I hope you dont mind if I share this with some non dz.com friends......

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[Zenister 0]

very very nice.

and i fully agree with your assessments(not that my opinion matters) but so do the 'experts' who have studied who lives and who dies in disaster situations, i wish i had the book with me (partly so i could tell you the title and who wrote it my memory sucks for some things) but as i was reading your post i was thinking "i've heard this before" a little memory search and i realized i hadnt actually but had only read something shockingly similar...

edit ok here it is...must be time to sleep...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[boxingrrl 0]

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After applying those six attributes to the people on my dead friends list and the incidents that killed them... I think you've hit the nail on the head.

And now I'm applying those six attributes to myself. And wondering.

Thanks for posting this Jan.

I can't say it any better than that. I consider myself still very new to the sport, and thankfully haven't lost any close friends. I've been on the DZ for a fatality, and have had some friends injured, to be sure. I know that analyzing their actions is important, but I think that this addresses more of their state-of-mind, which has to be equally, if not more important.

Not to hijack-- but where does the attitude about cutting away come from? Jan mentions it more than once in her post and I've seen it/witnessed it/borne the brunt of it. It does bother me. I hate to think that someone would hesitate to cutaway because they're afraid of what people will think, for crying out loud. I guess my question is more wondering if this is a recent phenomena or something that has always been a part of the sport?

[pccoder 0]

In response to not cutting away out of pride...

I only have 65 jumps and started little over a year ago. Therefore, I have seen very little in the department of canopy problems so far. Last weekend I had the longest snivel I have ever seen on my canopy and was for the first time really considering the fact that my slider may never come down. So...the thought of cutaway did enter my mind for the first time in 65 jumps. It would have been a waste, I only lost another 100 or 200 feet probably because of it. I guess with experience I will be able to learn better when would be the time to cutaway and when would not.

It's just that the statement about not "trying to fix a problem" could save your life should be prefaced with "knowing when it is fixable"?? Because, in my little experience I don't really know that well. I only know what photos I saw in AFF and stories I hear or read about. Oh well, just curious.

PcCoder.net

[webracer 0]

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Self Confidence

Jumpers' usually have a lot of self-confidence. There are times when this is not true. Some jumpers get self-doubts if they have the same malfunction again. This has bounced more than one person. You have to believe in yourself and your abilities to react properly. If not, stop jumping.

I have question about this issue. I can see this is a possibility, but more often see folks blaming their gear, or taking a second look at maintenance (such as a main reline). I saw three jumpers get a main reline last season due to back-to-back (or nearly so) cutaways. I believe there is some personal doubt when malfunctions occur, but I have not seen someone with enough loss of self-confidence to become a danger to themselves/others. An interesting point though.

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Humility

This is a jumper's ability to say 'Yo - main - you ain't working. I'm cutting away and pulling my reserve.' You do not have to know which line was over what line or what brake stow did whatever - you have to be able to -say 'You ain't working. It's not my ego on the line. I'm going for the reserve.'

I have heard way too many stories and read too many fatalities about people that let their pride kill them while they tried to 'fix' something.

This attribute I disagree with as presented. I don't know anyone who avoided a cutaway inorder to look cool (or not look weak). I think in those emergency situations, your life is all you think of. This can be further expanded to say that the person didn't want to pay for a repack. I think that is hogwash, and if someone actually thinks that way under pressure, they have no business up there. Now, I do see those discussions happening on the ground, after the fact. This is the cool/humility factor.
I can only speak for sure from personal experience, and even if I felt I wanted to save a repack or not look "weak" for cutting away (on the ground or in the plane), my survival instincts would takeover and money or peer opinion would not (an have not) been a factor in emergency decisions.
I do agree that many people (myself included) are inclined to fight something too long, and do not really observe any sort of "hard deck," (myself included). This post has made me think of this in a different light, and I am going to do everything in my power to get out of that category.
I do not want to cutaway unnecessarily, but I don't want to waste time on unfixable problems. There is a balance. I am from the school that you shouldn't waste your "last chance."
All in all though, great post Jan, great to stimulate our minds, especially with Safety Day coming up.
Thanks...

Troy

I am now free to exercise my downward mobility.

[BigM 2]

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I have heard way too many stories and read too many fatalities about people that let their pride kill them while they tried to 'fix' something.y

The post was a definite brain-exerciser. And while Jan is one of the most qualified in our sport to comment on most any aspect of it, I don't understand how she can presume to know it was someone's "pride" that was the contributing factor to someone's bad decision. They are dead and they are the only one able to explain their actions or lack thereof. This is wild, broad speculation at best.

While trying to figure out ways to make the sport safer for all of us, let's try to focus only on the things we know, not guesses or presumptions.
Blue 111-
Jeff

"When I die, I want to go like my grandmother, who died peacefully in her sleep. Not screaming like all the passengers in her car."

[pccoder 0]

I had something to say about the pride thing too, but I really wasn't trying to cause a problem with the original post, just wanted to know how will I know when it is fixable or not? when is it worth trying to save -vs- cutting away on those "close calls, could go either way"??

PcCoder.net

[Michele 1]

I've both cut and fought something longer than it should have been fought. I've learned tons about myself from both experiences. And I've ridden a "mal" much longer than I would've last spring, and handled it without cutting (knot in the brake line discovered on a clear and pull at sunset. Decided to not cut, and relearned how my canopy was flying that day, that moment, with that issue...)...and brought it in safely and confidently.

I look at it as a learning curve. While there was no doubt I had to cut the first time, I should've cut the second time, but didn't understand enough about the canopy to realize how fast I was losing altitude and wasn't checking it as often as I should've been. When I finally cleared "ludicrous line twists", I was way under my hard deck.

So from the first to the second, I recognized how to identify the seriousness of the mal (even if it is minor, shit happens). From the second to the third, I learned alti awareness, have a plan, stick with the plan, and make your decisions based on you, the moment, and your skill level.

As to pride, I think it's far more a ground attitude than it is an air attitude. More along the lines of "I have more jumps than you, I know what I'm doing, push off" when someone is talking to someone else. I think it's developed on the ground, and may tinge the discisions in the air, but mostly it's noticed on the ground.

I've other thoughts, but I'll watch and see how the conversation goes before I add them.

Very interesting originating post.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Newbie 0]

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Well I read the 1st half of your post......

Any one of us could be hit by a bus tommorrow....

if you are serious, i think this is a very narrow minded, not to mention selfish attitude.

Skydiving is dangerous - why make it more so by not bothering to read what someone with vast experience is telling us newbies, ESPECIALLY when they are trying to help us stay alive? Yes you could get hit by a bus tomorrow - you will get hit a lot quicker if you walk into the road with your eyes closed though.

People also seem to forget skydiving is more than just about your life. It's about the lives of the people you jump with and go up in a plane with. By being a better, safer skydiver, more aware of how to look out for yourself, you will hopefully put yourself AND others in less dangerous predicaments by having this extra knowledge. Don't be surprised if you find not many people wanting to jump with you in the future with this kind of "so what, the world is gonna end someday and we all have to go sometime" type of attitude.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[diverdriver 5]

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Well I read the 1st half of your post......

Any one of us could be hit by a bus tommorrow....

Yah, like those who didn't read the whole sign when it said "don't walk". What kind of response is that? Only read the first half of your post? I would recommend that you read the whole post. She has a lot of smart things to say. It just might keep you alive.

There are attitudes on aviation that can get you killed:

To repeat, the dangerous pilot attitudes which have been identified are:-

Anti-authority

Impulsiveness

Invulnerability

Macho

Deference

The proposed antidotes to these negative (and dangerous) attitudes are:-

Hazardous Attitude

Antidote

Anti-Authority: "Don't tell me."

"Follow the rules. They are usually right."

Impulsivity: "Do something - quickly."

"Not so fast. Think first."

Invulnerability: "It won't happen to me."

"It could happen to me."

Macho: "I can do it."

"Taking chances is dumb."

Deference: "What's the use."

"I'm not helpless. I can make a difference."

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[kallend 1,647]

I think you've omitted some things. Maybe I'm being thick, but I don't see how the guy who died swooping the pond when high fits any of these categories, except maybe insufficient humility.

But given a set of attributes correctly identified, what do you do about it? Safety Day is coming up...

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[skybytch 259]

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I don't see how the guy who died swooping the pond when high fits any of these categories, except maybe insufficient humility.

Course correction? He made a bonehead decision to swoop the pond - prior to setting up for the swoop he could have changed his mind and landed elsewhere.

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But given a set of attributes correctly identified, what do you do about it?

Good question.

[DeNReN 0]

I apologize for my asshole like comments....I was drinking and in a odd mood(although that is no excuse)...I have read the thread today (sober) and relize how wrong I was to post my comments.

Again.....I apologize.

[Praetorian 1]

I'm new to this sport, and have already lost one person I really trusted/respected and would have called friend if he hadn't been taken by someone elses mistake... I think every person has a certain number of jumps in them before they go, not a set number. Learning, even just spending a few moments thinking about posts like this one should up that number for most of us. On the list of qualties I can see them and I understand the points made. I think your personal # has a lot to do with your physical and mental ability.. but it has a lot more to do with you having a realistic view of those abilities and their limits. You can incrase your number by learning, seeking advice from those you trust and from experience, from advice and experience you make smarter choices (size and shape of main etc) you can decrease you number by failing to listen, by taking bad advice (as a warning to everyone that means your hurting someone by giving them bad advice) and by failing to respect your limits. I greatly respect the posters on this webpage, I have learned a lot in this off season, and as I go back to get recurrent I hope some of what I have learned has upped my number .. and I hope everyone else has taken something useful from this web page ... and upped their number. I plan on being in this sport for a long time .. and I'd really like to keep the number of friends I loose to a minimum

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[kallend 1,647]

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I don't see how the guy who died swooping the pond when high fits any of these categories, except maybe insufficient humility.

Course correction? He made a bonehead decision to swoop the pond - prior to setting up for the swoop he could have changed his mind and landed elsewhere.

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He had so many chemicals in his bloodstream the only thing "elsewhere" was his mind. I don't think course correction was an option.

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But given a set of attributes correctly identified, what do you do about it?

Good question.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

• Quote

[skycat 0]

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Not to hijack-- but where does the attitude about cutting away come from? Jan mentions it more than once in her post and I've seen it/witnessed it/borne the brunt of it. It does bother me. I hate to think that someone would hesitate to cutaway because they're afraid of what people will think, for crying out loud. I guess my question is more wondering if this is a recent phenomena or something that has always been a part of the sport?

My 1st cutaway around jump 75, I got quite a bit of "friendly advice" about not cutting away and working with the mal. That I could have landed the mal, it was only a suck toggle. I really felt bad, and was kicking myself until Scotty Carbone walked up and said "Screw them, you were the one under that canopy and made the right choice". Still it bugged me for weeks, left me feeling like I screwed up.

So jump 396 canopy opens a takes off spinning.....try a few things quickly check it out, can't figure out what was wrong and chopped it. Turns out it was a popped toggle but the way the brakes were, it looked like they were still stowed. I kicked myself for chopping something when all I had to do was unstow the other toggle, then I remembered what Scotty said. I also know of people who have gotten shit for chopping the same kind of mal, and I always wondered if the harassment I got after my 1st mal would make me hesitate, luckly that was the farthest thing from my mind.
Yet I've seen the arm chair quarterbacking on this site just as bad as on some DZs, so I can easily see how someone would try to fix something that isn't fix able, and then it's to low to chop.

Fly it like you stole it!

[firstime 0]

This post is disturbing but very REAL. It said alot of
things that we don't want to hear and could not have
come at a better time with safety day forthcoming.
I nor does anyone in these forums ever want to be
part of "that list". I have vowed from the beginning
that if I am saying "maybe I can do this" I am going
to make the decision that will enable me to have beer at the end of the day. I have had some long walks and loved every step. Bravo on your post .