Should "hook" turns be banned at demos?

[hottamaly 1]

I just read in the incidents eport about an experianced person dieing at a high school demo because he hooked it in. I'm sure he is not the first and won't be the last unless we police "at least" this area of skydiving (in a public arena). This is just my opinion and was wondering what others thought about it.
Sorry if this is a repost.

Skydiving gave me a reason to live
I'm not afraid of what I'll miss when I die...I'm afraid of what I'll miss as I live

[diablopilot 2]

They are banned by the FAA.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[hottamaly 1]

Oh....but then ...never mind. I guess they still don't listen.

Skydiving gave me a reason to live
I'm not afraid of what I'll miss when I die...I'm afraid of what I'll miss as I live

[jdfreefly 1]

Really? I have never heard this before.

Could you provide us with a link or a quote to prove this?

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[hookitt 0]

How experienced was this jumper?

I feel that performing a hookturn into demos is fine but going big at a demo is a bad Idea.

The problem with that, is anyone with Pro rating (sometimes not) can do a demo.

A skilled skydiver hammered into the rocks at a weekly beach demo some years back. He was not a skilled swooper and had no business doing hookturns into the demo in the first place, but to be quite honest with you, several of us did hookturns there every week.

So, what can ya do when one person can perform under those circumstances just fine, where others don't? I don't know.

[crutch 0]

There is usually an addendum attached to the waiver for demos that we get. Amongst those there is some verbige about not do hook turns, although DOD teams are exempt from all of these "extra" rules.

blue skies,

art

[PhreeZone 15]

Advisory Circular 105-2c

FAR Section 105.15 requires a certificate of authorization for these jumps (except for emergencies and certain Armed Forces’ operations as provided in FAR Section 105.11). An application for a certificate of authorization should be submitted at least 4-working days before the intended jump. The application must be submitted in triplicate on FAA Form 7711-2, Certificate of Waiver or Authorization Application, to the FSDO responsible for the area where the jump is to take place. Applying as early as possible will aid the FAA in processing these certificates.

A. The determination of whether the FAA will issue FAA Form 7711-1, Certificate of Waiver or Authorization, and the special provisions will depend on the circumstances of each case. The two main considerations for issuing an authorization will be the documented skill and experience of the parachutist making the jump and the size of the landing area. Examples of these requirements are:

1. Parachutists who hold a USPA Class C or D license or a member of a Department of Defense (DOD)-sanctioned parachute demonstration team must select a landing area that will permit the jumper to land not closer than 50 feet from any spectator and will not involve passing over persons on the surface at an altitude of less than 250 feet.

2. Parachutists who hold a USPA Class D license or a member of a steerable DOD-sanctioned parachute demonstration team, who certify that they will use a square main and reserve canopy, should be permitted to exit over or land into a congested area. Landing area restrictions as indicated in subparagraph a1. should apply. Parachutists with exhibition ratings, in addition to being allowed to exit over or land into congested areas, must not land closer than 15 feet from any spectator and will not pass over persons on the surface at an altitude of less than 50 feet.



In FAR 105 it states:

80. LANDING AREAS

A. USPA divides landing areas into tow distinct categories, depending on the demonstrated competency of the parachutist.

1. Level One: Parachutists who hold a USPA Class C or D license must select a landing area that permits the jumper to land no closer than 50 feet from any spectator and does not involve passing over persons on the surface at an altitude of less than 250 feet.
2. Level Two: Parachutists who hold a USPA Class D license with an exhibition (PRO) rating and who certify that they shall use a steerable square main and reserve canopy, shall be permitted to exit over or into a congested area. The selected landing area must permit the jumper to land no closer than 15 feet from any spectator and does not involve passing over persons on the surface at an altitude of less than 50 feet.

I hate calling people out like this but......

For a great video of a FAR violation look up FreeflyDrew's thread in the canopy fourm. He passes less then 50 feet over the crowd. The jump turned out great.. but look at the video and think what would have happened if he had leveled out a bit sooner in the hook.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[JohnMitchell 14]

Quote

They are banned by the FAA.

I don't think hook turns are banned, I think passing too low over people and landing too close to them is banned. I don't think speed and approach are mentioned in the regs. With that said, I don't like to see hook turns at demos. It's exciting enough for the crowd without all that. I use a 90 degree riser turn at most. I do jump with some really good flyers, though, that can handle it.

[freeflybella 0]

Quote

Should "hook" turns be banned at demos?

NO.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

Quote

They are banned by the FAA.

I don't think hook turns are banned, I think passing too low over people and landing too close to them is banned. I don't think speed and approach are mentioned in the regs. With that said, I don't like to see hook turns at demos. It's exciting enough for the crowd without all that. I use a 90 degree riser turn at most. I do jump with some really good flyers, though, that can handle it.

Hook turns are almost always forbidden in the special provision list attached the the
7711-1.
The special provisions will list things like, must wear a square, steerable reserve, winds can't exceed 15 mph, must have jumped any flags, banners before, shit like that.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

Really? I have never heard this before.

Could you provide us with a link or a quote to prove this?

Somewhere and you'll have to give ma a bit on finding this again is a set of rules about how you may not make manuvers on a demo jump that exceede x degrees of pitch, and y degrees of roll, under a specific altitude. Often ignored, I'll see if my memory is serving me well and can find it.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Deuce 1]

I was curious about the accuracy requirement on the specific canopy to be jumped.

A Velocity that's loaded up has a multi yard swoop, so the jumper's feet are in contact with the ground longer than the required diameter for accuracy. So is it determined by being able to "stop" within the accuracy diameter?

[diablopilot 2]

Nope. IT's first point of contact. Just because your swoop is long doesn't mean your feet must contact the ground befor the "stop". In fact the point of distance competitions is to keep your feet off the ground till the last second.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[GravityGirl 0]

I got mine on my St97. As I remember, it was first point of contact until full stop w/i 10m.

But then again, my memory ain't what it used to be.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[crutch 0]

Actually, it all depends on the interpetation of the S&TA that signs one off for the jumps. I have dealt with some who say first point of contact, others where one actually stops completely. One of the items that definitely needs to be addressed.

As far as "hook" turns at a demo, we avoid them in the stadium as the winds are always pretty funky inside. At the beach though, as long as you are not breaking the 50' and 15' rules set by the FAA, I don't see a problem.

blue skies,

art

[John4455 0]

For the Pro rating, its making the first contact, and stop within the 10 meter circle, standing up. Its in the SIM Section7-2 b
(if thats what you are talking about)

How do ya like it Johnny?

[mr2mk1g 10]

Same in the UK, it's not first contact or last contact that counts - it's both. If you can't do that you don't get the rating.

Of course the problem with the UK regs is that there is no requirement to do your rating jumps on the canopy you're going to use.

I did mine on my ordinary sport rig and 170, but then that's likely to be what I'll use. Most pro demo jumpers though simply nominate 5 tandems each year then do the jump on whatever rigs the demo team own - usually sensibly sized tri's or similar.

[chuckbrown 0]

Quote

Quote

Really? I have never heard this before.

Could you provide us with a link or a quote to prove this?

Somewhere and you'll have to give ma a bit on finding this again is a set of rules about how you may not make manuvers on a demo jump that exceede x degrees of pitch, and y degrees of roll, under a specific altitude. Often ignored, I'll see if my memory is serving me well and can find it.

Hook turns are "recommended" prohibitions in an FAA document simply called "8700" which governs aviation events. It's the same document that "recommends" CRW formations be broken down by a certain altitude. That is unless you're a "DOD-sanctioned" team. These prohibitions are generally included in all 7711 waivers, but, theoretically, you might be able to get the local FSDO to not include it on the waiver. If you look at the language of the document, it seems to give the FSDO some discretion in the matter. If you do a search on the FAA site for "8700" you'll probably link to it. I have it on pdf, but it's a pretty big file.

Edited to add: Hook turns on a demo are pretty stupid. What better way to promote the sport. The biggest killer of skydivers today are hook turns.

[tombuch 0]

Demos are not just "approved" by the FAA. They are approved with conditions. Some of the other posters have listed a few of those.

When you are doing a demo do not assume everything is approved, and that you have no FAA restrictions. Confirm everything with the organizer. Ask to see the waiver/authorization, and read all the fine print. Ask if a NOTAM was filed, and what area and times are covered. Confirm crowd control plans and alternates, and confirm ground to air communication has been arranged. Check the weather yourself, and be sure you have updated sources available on site.

It is also a good idea to review the USPA SIM as well as Part 105 and AC-105 before the jump, so you are familiar with those requirements. If you think the organizer has arranged insurance, ask to see confirmation or proof.

Each participant in a demonstration jump is liable for safety and compliance with any restriction in the authorization, so you must know what the local FAA office has approved.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[riggerrob 558]

There are two issues with hook turning at demos.

The first issue involves the concept of " never do anything on a demo that you have not already done dozens of times at the DZ." This includes landing close to the fence, hangar, etc.

The second issue involves the difference between DZ fashions and what the public perceives as skill. If you eavesdrop on the crowd during a long turf surf, chances are you will hear "That lame bastard missed the target."

In the long run, the audience only remembers three things:
Did all the skydivers survive?
Did they all and in the correct stadium?
Did they all stand up their landings?

[John4455 0]

The most impressive thing for a spectator at a demo is a slow, soft touch down on target.

How do ya like it Johnny?

[airtwardo 6]

Tom~

Once again you've brought up some critical points..

...all very important factors that a lot of demo jumpers don't take into consideration until it's too late!

I have to believe that the whole Demo / Pro thing
is about to take on a whole new look.

The current insurer grudgingly went along with the
minor changes that were instituted in the
Pro rating system...

They wanted more time to study the program,
and quite honestly thought that more stringent
requirements might be called for.

I recall a conversation I had with a rep from
"Insurance Programs and Technologies Inc."
in which I was told that things obviously needed
to change, and that they didn't think we would be able to
do a good enough job of self-policing the program / rating
as things currently are. But that they would review and recommend after a year.

That year is now 3/4's gone and we obviously don't have anything
to be proud of as far as our organizations collective
Demo record is concerned.

Where do we go from here?
Only time will tell, but I expect the rating will be harder
to get and keep in the near future..
I hope so anyway.

We all know Pro rating holders that we wonder about.
At a recent boogie I was jumping with an old friend that was
bragging on HIS rating with a VX97...
A friendly 'contest' was begun at my urging...
"I'll see ya in the peas!"

He made it ONCE in the five times we jumped together,
every miss manifested a different 'excuse' as to why he missed...

I'll bet the farm AND the tractor he never did it
ten times in a row!

I have to agree with the sentiment that wuffos
are easily impressed,
if you want to 'show off' do it at the DZ where people
that understand the skill are present!

For a Demo...it's relatively simple~

* Don't hurt anyone on the ground.
* Don't get hurt.
* Be on time.
* Be on Target.
* Stand up.

Equal amounts of skill and judgment are required
to safely complete that check list...

Seems that too often, both are lacking.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Ron 7]

None of that says you can't do a hook turn.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Fast 0]

Quote

For a Demo...it's relatively simple~

* Don't hurt anyone on the ground.
* Don't get hurt.
* Be on time.
* Be on Target.
* Stand up.

Is this really true though? I mean for the most part it seems that the more spectator friendly aspects of this sport are swooping and canopy control. The swooping stuff stands the greatest chance to get included in the bigger sports games (olympics, etc)

It would seem to me that people like to see the more extreeme go fast, take risks type of behavior related to things like x-games etc. That just seems to me what the public opinion is leaning towards. Not to say its a good thing though.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[jlmiracle 7]

Quote

I mean for the most part it seems that the more spectator friendly aspects of this sport are swooping and canopy control

Like was stated earlier - the only thing a wuffo understands is on target and stand up landing. The swooping is cool if that is what they are there to see, but I am completely against hook turns into demos. If we keep having all these problems with demo's, I will be against them also.

judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.