WeakMindedFool 0 #51 February 26, 2004 QuoteThis WAS NOT directed as a personal attack. If everone read my initial post, it wasn't directed at anyone but a new jumper. I didn't/don't want to point fingers at anyone. But I was asked to explain my post. I did. This post was initiated because a friend of mine low-turned into the ground and now has a long road ahead of her. Wing loaded about the same. Hopefully this is not the end of her skydiving fun. Yes, I think it was. You didn't name me but you directed everyone where to find me. I don't mind...I think it's funny. I would have appreciated some direct questioning but, whatever works for you is fine with me. I hope your friend is OK too and send her my best!Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves. -Eric Hoffer - Check out these Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dolemite 0 #52 February 26, 2004 Quote"I drank what?" - Socrates I jumped what??? - too many to name -Dolemite "Officially disapproved by the man" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #53 February 26, 2004 QuoteI am jumping a Saber 2 170 loaded at 1.32. I have 16 jumps on it. 12 jumps on Saber 2 190 11 jumps on Saber 2 210 13 jumps on 260-229 2 tamdems The alarming thing to remember here is NOT that you are jumping a Sabre2 170 loaded at about 1.32:1 (heck I used to jump the same canopy loaded a tad heavier than you and know that it's a fun ride). The alarming thing is that you've downsized only after a handful of jumps time and time again. Can you tell me that you mastered that 210 before you downsized? How about that 190? Can you honestly say that you mastered it? What about this 170? According to your history (3-5 jumps ago) you should have already been on a 150 huh? So when's all this going to happen? Last Saturday on jump #184 of my current canopy (a Crossfire2 loaded at 1.5:1) and all previous 183 jumps were stand up landings. Guess what? I made a judgemental error thinking that I could surf the landing like I've done time and time again. Unfortunately the ground was harder and stickier than I antiticipated and I crashed. So was I ready to downsize after jump #183 on that canopy? I mean I stood up every one of those other landings? Heck no, I am no where near mastering my canopy, so "NO DOWNSIZE FOR YOU" as heard from the Canopy (Soup) Nazi!!! Hopefully you will survive your Sabre2 170 and hopefully we will see you put hundreds and hundreds of jumps on it before we see you downsize again. I'm no canopy nazi, but I do believe that people need to master their current wing before they downsize. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WeakMindedFool 0 #54 February 26, 2004 QuoteI'll just ask: Are you planning on downsizing from that canopy any time soon? My plan is to put about 300 jumps on this canopy then reevaluate. I can see that someday I'll want more but I've got some time before I get ALL out of this canopy. Quote Why did you feel you had to downsize from the 190? Was the 190 rental gear and were looking for something to buy? Was that part of the decision making? That's absolutely right. It wasn't a matter of 'I need to downsize' more of what am I going to be jumping for the next 300 jumps? I jumped a 190 and a 170 got with my instructors and I made the decision. QuoteSeems you have some background with the Sabre 2s so it's not so brand new to you. How long did it take you to get the jumps you do have? 11 months...most though since I got my gear probably November.Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves. -Eric Hoffer - Check out these Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkySlut 0 #55 February 26, 2004 Yeah, I agree...it does send up some red flags to me. I could see it if you were a 90 lb girl who had to jump student gear because they didnt have anything smaller...then they quickly progressed, like the progression in question, to get comfortable until they get themselves to a 1:1 w.l ratio, give or take. This is not the case though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #56 February 26, 2004 QuoteI tend to land where I think I'm gonna land by this is not 100%. For clarification, landing on target means putting your parachute where you want, not knowing where it's taking you.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WeakMindedFool 0 #57 February 26, 2004 Quote The alarming thing to remember here is NOT that you are jumping a Sabre2 170 loaded at about 1.32:1 (heck I used to jump the same canopy loaded a tad heavier than you and know that it's a fun ride). The alarming thing is that you've downsized only after a handful of jumps time and time again. Can you tell me that you mastered that 210 before you downsized? How about that 190? Can you honestly say that you mastered it? What about this 170? According to your history (3-5 jumps ago) you should have already been on a 150 huh? So when's all this going to happen? I see what your saying and no I haven't mastered ANY canopy. This is more of a question of where I'm starting then anything else. I'm NOT stupid enough to believe I have the experience to make an informed decision about where I should be right now. I have to rely on those with that experience that I'm learning from. And yes...it's A LOT of fun to fly, and requires an enormous amout of focus below 1000' feet, for me. It's also a lot easier to land then any other canopy I've been on and behaves in a more intuitive manner. Edited to add NOT...Fruedian?Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves. -Eric Hoffer - Check out these Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
amir1967 0 #58 February 26, 2004 QuoteReading another post in another forum, i see (AND I HOPE I'M WRONG) that we have a jumper with 50-100 jumps with a new canopy with a wing loading of 1.35 WTF! . I can only hope that their profile isn't updated. I have bought my vengeance 170 @ 1.39 with 60 jumps . it wasn´t the smart thing to do ,never had a bad landing ( some ``interesting landing``) looking back I wouldn´t recomend it alltho it did work for me. be safe and have funAM67 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #59 February 26, 2004 Ok, good that you don't want to go smaller for 300 jumps. If I hear you've downsized before 300 jumps I'm gonna bring you back to this post. K? Now, I wish this wasn't true but it is certainly all too real today. People making gear choices because they don't want to by "twice". They go a little more than they probably should (not saying that here but in general) just because they don't want to hastle with selling and buying another canopy. This should never really be a part of our decision making process. I started jumping in 95. I started on 288s and 300s weighing soaking wet 150. At about 150 jumps I bought a Cobra 150. So, loading was about 1:1. I had people on my case that I was being too aggressive with my downsizing. I did have about 1,000 hours flying airplanes so I had -some- aeronautical experience before getting to that point. I did not have people really coaching me with my canopy control because they hardly understood their new Sabres either. (just a little story for -perspective-) Sounds like you are keeping up with your instructors. Don't ever stop that then. Most people would say you are out on the edge of ability and performance right now. You could choose to take a step back. Or you can go forward knowing that many have expressed concern here. My suggestion would be to fly in a manner that you never hear us coming back to say "I told you so." I know I've played that in my mind a few time with flying planes. I start to see a headline written and how embarassing it will be for my parents to read how I screwed up. Learn all you can. And also give yourself time for repetition. Repeatability is better than "pulling it off." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #60 February 26, 2004 > I fully believe 1.3 is doable for some people around 100 jumps if > they are smart and DESIRE to learn correctly. I just can't agree with you. Those two things are simply not enough. The smartest guy in the world, who wants to learn to fly a Gulfstream V really, really badly, can't just hop in one and fly it. He has to get instruction and experience in other aircraft first. Now, take that guy and send him to a canopy control class, and have him progress through several canopy sizes, and you have someone who might be able to fly a 1.3 to 1 at 100 jumps if he's exceptional. But it's the education, not his 'exceptionalness', that makes him able to handle the faster canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WeakMindedFool 0 #61 February 26, 2004 Quote Sounds like you are keeping up with your instructors. Don't ever stop that then. Most people would say you are out on the edge of ability and performance right now. You could choose to take a step back. Or you can go forward knowing that many have expressed concern here. My suggestion would be to fly in a manner that you never hear us coming back to say "I told you so." I know I've played that in my mind a few time with flying planes. I start to see a headline written and how embarassing it will be for my parents to read how I screwed up. Learn all you can. And also give yourself time for repetition. Repeatability is better than "pulling it off." Thankyou for the advice, this is my plan. Canopy flight is, for right now, the aspect of skydiving that I am the most interested in and am seeking (and think I've found) a coach. I was refered by my instructors (hell they will always be my instructors) but after talking with the guy for 5 minutes I realized how little I know about anything to do with canopy flight. I do feel I can get my canopy on the ground without breaking anything but this is far from mastery. Thanks again!Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves. -Eric Hoffer - Check out these Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #62 February 26, 2004 >. Am I in over my head? I may be, I'm not qualified to judge that. >Who's advice should I take? Your own! After a while you'll get a good feel for what each size canopy can do for you and what special risks each holds. Until you get there, I'd recommend you be very cautious to avoid getting in over your head without realizing it. Other people can give you advice, but in the end the decision is up to you. You're taking an additional risk by jumping a canopy at that loading; I think you realize that. Just make sure you are OK with the possible outcomes before they happen to you. (And, of course, practice flat turns etc so you can potentially avoid them.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
prost 0 #63 February 26, 2004 Just make sure that you are working with your local instructors. They are the ones that know the most about your flying skills. The wingloasing that you are at is not so off that I would fault you as long as your local instructors are in agreement. There are cases that I see on here that are much more extreme than yours. That being said know that any canopy can hurt or kill and you are taking an added risk no matter how well you are flying the canopy. QuoteCan you tell me that you mastered that 210 before you downsized? This is one area that gets me. Can anyone say that they have mastered a canopy before they downsized. It is ridiculous. You could spend your entire life on one canopy and not master it. If we want young jumpers to listen to us we can not b.s. them. They will realize it and tune us out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #64 February 26, 2004 WMF, I understand that your home dz has lots of wide open landing areas and outs, and knowing where you jump I know it's pretty close to sea level. Do you plan to travel to other dz's in your next couple hundred jumps, while you are mastering the canopy you have? Is is possible that any of those dz's will be at a higher msl altitude than your home dz? It's definitely possible that any of those dz's may have a smaller main landing area and fewer and smaller outs than you are used to. Either situation "could" be a problem for you right now. Something to think about anyway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #65 February 26, 2004 Hell, all he has to do is go over to the valley in the summer and he'll have the same effect of jumping at a higher landing elevation. Density altitude will get him because he wasn't expecting a relatively same field elevation to have any performance differences. Keep it in mind. Hot air = faster landings and more altitude loss in a turn.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TimDave 0 #66 February 26, 2004 You are correct that some people can and some people can't. I never said that there is nodody is capable of it. I was just speaking in generalities. In general most people are not ready. As for my canopy choice. I made it after taking the evolution canopy flight school, attending many seminars by Brian Germain, and spending days doing canopy coach jumps with Brian and preparing to fly my new wing that way. I also read every thing that I could get my hands on (articles by John LeBlanc, Brian Germain, Brian Burke, and other aerodynamic texts). I felt that I did my homework and only when those experienced people said that I was ready did I downsize. Also I never made any reference to my experience like Quote I was at 1.4+ at 80 jumps. It can be done if the student knows whats up and has good instruction available. I was just trying to make people aware of what they say may give the wrong impression. If you look at my profile you should be able to figure out my exit weight. I put about 250 jumps per year on my crossfire at my current pace. I am sorry if I came off like I wsa attacking you. I did not mean to do that. I just got very angry that the subtle message I got from your post was "Hey I did it, you might be able to also" I am not attacking you, I just am trying to prevent unnecessary encouragement. There is plenty of that out there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WeakMindedFool 0 #67 February 26, 2004 QuoteWMF, I understand that your home dz has lots of wide open landing areas and outs, and knowing where you jump I know it's pretty close to sea level. Do you plan to travel to other dz's in your next couple hundred jumps, while you are mastering the canopy you have? Is is possible that any of those dz's will be at a higher msl altitude than your home dz? It's definitely possible that any of those dz's may have a smaller main landing area and fewer and smaller outs than you are used to. Either situation "could" be a problem for you right now. Something to think about anyway. No I really don't plan on going anywhere else for awhile. Lodi's landing area is much smaller (I've never been there but that's what I hear) and Tahoe is too high for me right now. From time to time they fly the caravan to Byron when it's too windy in Davis and I would go with the crew there (I hear their landing area is even bigger then Skydance's at the same aprox. altitude). Your advice is the same as my instructors, stay home for a few hundred jumps. Advice I'm taking. Thanks!Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves. -Eric Hoffer - Check out these Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WeakMindedFool 0 #68 February 26, 2004 QuoteHell, all he has to do is go over to the valley in the summer and he'll have the same effect of jumping at a higher landing elevation. Density altitude will get him because he wasn't expecting a relatively same field elevation to have any performance differences. Keep it in mind. Hot air = faster landings and more altitude loss in a turn. I worked for a time on EMS bird's so I hear and understand DA. I plan on putting lot's of skydives on my rig before summer for just that reason (also cause I want to do lots of skydives between now and summerFaith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves. -Eric Hoffer - Check out these Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveNFlorida 0 #69 February 27, 2004 QuoteQuoteAnd, this has been argued many times. I don't see the point of this post I guess. To start a flame fest? I don't necessarily think that a person with xx jump should be under a 1.35 w/l... but then, I have not flown at a 1.35w/l, so I can't make that call. I HAVE flown that wingload...And wingloads almost TWICE that. A person with 50 jumps should not be under a 1.35 wingload....And I AM an INSTRUCTOR, have a PRO RATING and have more less than perfect landings than you have jumps. Now what ya got to say? A bit angry, are we? Your educated opinion is that no one with 50 jumps should be at 1.35. You are entitled to your opinion, you have enough experience to give those types of opinions. I do not. I have never flown at that w/l, I have limited time in the sport and have not seen people of low #s jump high w/l's and screw themselves into the ground, or make it out fine. This is why I said I don't presume to judge. There was no need to come out with "Now what ya got to say?". Later, Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #70 February 27, 2004 Quoteit's A LOT of fun to fly, and requires an enormous amout of focus below 1000' feet, for me. It's also a lot easier to land then any other canopy I've been on and behaves in a more intuitive manner. If something requires more focus to fly, it's not more intuitive.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WeakMindedFool 0 #71 February 27, 2004 Quote If something requires more focus to fly, it's not more intuitive. Intuition - the direct knowing or learning of something without the conscious use of reasoning. Focus - any center of activity, attention It is possible for something to respond in a way that you expect, even without conscious thought. This does not negate the need for attention to detail in the broader task. Take shooting a gun for example. No conscious thought is required for the firearm itself, provided it behaves in a fashion one expects it to. Focus on the target is absolutely required if one wishes to hit it. The same is true in this case; my limited experience so far has shown me that a given input on a control results in a reaction, which I expected. This does not remove any need for focus on the many variables that come into play throughout the landing.Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves. -Eric Hoffer - Check out these Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TimDave 0 #72 February 27, 2004 Quote The same is true in this case; my limited experience so far has shown me that a given input on a control results in a reaction, which I expected. If you jumping a canopy and pull down on the left toggle 12" for 5 seconds will produce a 180 degree turn and it will lose 200 feet in the process that is expected. But now I have a new canopy, should I expect that it behaves in the same way? I can't say that I would. That, now, is not intuitive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #73 February 27, 2004 So how is a faster canopy "more intuitive"? The same control inputs provide the same reponses, simply at different speeds. You said in your own reply that intuition involves the lack of conscious thought. Focus IS conscious thought.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WeakMindedFool 0 #74 February 27, 2004 QuoteSo how is a faster canopy "more intuitive"? The same control inputs provide the same reponses, simply at different speeds. You said in your own reply that intuition involves the lack of conscious thought. Focus IS conscious thought. I don't really know how to respond to you more fully then I have. We're going to have to agree to disagree, I've answered your question but either you don't understand or I haven't explained it to you enough...Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves. -Eric Hoffer - Check out these Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #75 February 27, 2004 QuoteA bit angry, are we? Nope....just answering your question. QuoteAnd, this has been argued many times. I don't see the point of this post I guess The point is that people still don't listen."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
