Low Jumps...High W/L AGAIN!!!

[piisfish 135]

I had this kind of WL at around 220 jumps, had a serious call due to my mistake. Got a brainlock while doing a 180 front riser approach... released the risers a bit late. Walked away with bruised knees. Very lucky.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[billvon 2,400]

>I guess you could, I don't know, maybe post your concerns to me directly.

I'll do that, since scott didn't. What canopy are you currently jumping, and at what loading? How many jumps do you have on it and on the previous (larger) canopy you were jumping? Have you gotten any structured canopy control training on this canopy or the previous one? Can you turn 90 degrees at 50 feet, flare turn 45 degrees, land within a 10 meter circle, initiate HP landings with double front risers and a front riser turn, land crosswind? Could you do all that with your previous canopy?

[Ron 7]

Thanks Chris...

I see the comparison of the high performace plane and a highly loaded canopy as the same thing.

Its not that I don't want folks flying a Bonanza or Stiletto...I just want them to have enough experience and training to survive it.

Chris...If I told you I had just bought a nice V35. I have around 10 hours in type and all the HP and complex sign offs. However, I only have ~100 hours total. And most of that time is in a Cessna 150/152

Now since I am current (in a Cessna) and I have flown it before I tell you that I don't think I need any more training. I'm gonna fly it around to get more used to it...But I'm only gonna fly it on GOOD days, and I promise not to overspeed it.

What would you tell me?

(This of couse assuming I could get insurance on it with just 100 hours Total Time.)

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[diverdriver 5]

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Thanks Chris...

I see the comparison of the high performace plane and a highly loaded canopy as the same thing.

Its not that I don't want folks flying a Bonanza or Stiletto...I just want them to have enough experience and training to survive it.

Chris...If I told you I had just bought a nice V35. I have around 10 hours in type and all the HP and complex sign offs. However, I only have ~100 hours total. And most of that time is in a Cessna 150/152

Now since I am current (in a Cessna) and I have flown it before I tell you that I don't think I need any more training. I'm gonna fly it around to get more used to it...But I'm only gonna fly it on GOOD days, and I promise not to overspeed it.

What would you tell me?

(This of couse assuming I could get insurance on it with just 100 hours Total Time.)

I'd say no, you need to go with an instructor and fly it on bad days with a x-wind and low ceilings and get more hood time or actual time with an instructor cuz eventually you are gonna find yourself there so you better know what you are going to do before hand.


Edit to add: OH, and does the name John Kennedy Jr. mean anything to you?

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[freakydiver 0]

I was at 1.4+ at 80 jumps. It can be done if the student knows whats up and has good instruction available.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[TimDave 0]

Nobody is saying that it can't be done. They are saying that it is not a good idea. I can catch an arrow shot from a bow, does that mean it is a good idea? Comments like yours will just encourage more people to do things that they think they are ready for. When the not-so-perfect situation arises everyblody will just pray they survive it unstead of starting another thread just like this one. You are right, it can be done. I am just tired of seeing and reading of people that have low jump number and wing loadings that are not appropriate for that person to SAFELY learn.

[Ron 7]

[Sarcasim]

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I'd say no, you need to go with an instructor and fly it on bad days with a x-wind and low ceilings and get more hood time or actual time with an instructor cuz eventually you are gonna find yourself there so you better know what you are going to do before hand.

Well you don't know what you are talking about..You have never seen ME fly. I don't plan on flying in bad conditions..I already told you I was only going to fly it on GOOD days. How can you know that I can't handle the Bonanza with 100 hours...I'm a real good pilot, and my buddy LEARNED with his Bonanza.

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Edit to add: OH, and does the name John Kennedy Jr. mean anything to you?

Yeah, he was that little kid that saluted his Dad right? Whats he been up to these days?

[/sarcasim]

Does this sound at all like something we have heard about a million times with a low tiime jumper and his new canopy?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[freakydiver 0]

"Comments like yours will just encourage more people to do things that they think they are ready for."

Yah okay, my comment is going to drive people to downsize, uh huh. Hot shots on DZs and in magazine ads are MUCH more likely to get someone downsizing.

Some people can handle it and some cannot. A canopy loaded at 1.3 isn't automatically a death trap if in the hands of a head's up person. I personally have seen NUMEROUS people on canopy loadings of 1.2 - 1.4 early in their careers. Granted, I do agree there is a larger window of oppurtunity for screwing up, but only if that particular individual is hung out to dry from the get go. I wasn't.

YOU are missing the point - I'm pointing out the lack of proper education. Read some of my old posts before jumping the gun. Oh yah, and thanks for pointing out what other people mean in their threads.

Also - you should ask someone are the under an elliptical (such as yourself) or a square-semi ellip (such as me). I'm just curious, how much do you weigh? How many jumps do you do a year under your elliptical crossfire??

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[billvon 2,400]

>A canopy loaded at 1.3 isn't automatically a death trap if in
>the hands of a head's up person.

You can be the most heads-up guy in the world; if you don't have the training and experience to fly a 1.3 to 1 canopy, it can kill you very quickly. Canopy control is not about guts, or quick reaction times, or courage, or about having good judgement at 50 feet. It's about training and experience and having the good judgement on the _ground_ to not downsize until you have enough skill to keep you alive under even bad conditions.

[diverdriver 5]

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Does this sound at all like something we have heard about a million times with a low tiime jumper and his new canopy?

Yes, and to be honest, those words have come out of my mouth too at some points. I've had friends raise concern about things I was doing. I tried never to brush them off. Well, this one guy who threatened to beat my face to a pulp. I didn't listen to him much. I just banned him from getting in my plane again. Not a good situation because I didn't learn much from all that really other than to watch my back when he was around.

Anyway, we don't say things like this because we want to keep people down or stifle their progression. I look to the champion acrobactic pilots. They certainly didn't start flying Extra400s right away. They started acrobactic flying with an instructor with them all the time in Citabras or Aerobat 150s. There is a progression and there needs to be an understanding that when you go off the norm you need extra instruction. If even after you receive extra instruction people might still say "that's not for you yet". Listen to them. It seems that some DZs in Florida are not as confident in this persons canopy control from direct observation. So they have a couple options. Get more education and training and work directly with a reputable instructor. Or, downsize to a lighter wingload and put about the next 200 jumps on it. Then, think about it again and move on.


Oh, that John Kennedy Jr. guy? He lost control of his aircraft and took out 2 other lives with him. Was one of the only times he flew that complex Saratoga without an instructor by his side. I wonder with all his "time" if he was really the one making decisions (PIC) or just driving the boat till told to turn.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[diverdriver 5]

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It's about training and experience and having the good judgement on the _ground_ to not downsize until you have enough skill to keep you alive under even bad conditions.

I demo'd a Velocity 84 awhile back. I landed it just fine. Enjoyed the experience. Loaded it at 2:1. And then I thought "Yah, that was fun but don't need that for an every day canopy." Was thinking about those "bad" situations.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[freakydiver 0]

I never said it was about guts. Don't put words into my keyboard. Thanks for the heads up Bill, but again, I fully believe 1.3 is doable for some people around 100 jumps if they are smart and DESIRE to learn correctly. There are numerous examples of it out there - it exemplifies what correct and diligent education can do to expedite a learning process. I learned brake turns early, I learned the importance of setting up my landing pattern with some forethought, I learned to have my head on a swivel.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[freakydiver 0]

Like when you don't have a 200 foot plus runway to put the thing down? That is on the opposite side of the spectrum for say a Sabre 2 loaded at 1.3. I could sink that in anywhere as most competent canopy pilots should be able to.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[diverdriver 5]

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Like when you don't have a 200 foot plus runway to put the thing down? That is on the opposite side of the spectrum for say a Sabre 2 loaded at 1.3. I could sink that in anywhere as most competent canopy pilots should be able to.

You are correct. Sabre 2 loaded at 1.3 is different than full eliptical at 1.3. And very true that every pilot should be competant on their canopy before downsizing.

I have not made a blanket statement that 1.3 to 1 is out of the question for someone with the PROPER training AND aptitude (ability). However, newbie is newbie. And we all will make newbie mistakes. Like me on my first wingsuit jump. I didn't really give myself a chance to come out of my glide before dumping. I got cranked on the opening. They told me about it. I acknowledged that I had to transition from glide to vertical descent and yet I still deployed too soon. Newbie mistake. Now had I been on the ultra high flat gliding winsuit instead of the newbie suit it might have been worse than it was. Maybe not. It's just an example. I learned something from that. It hurt. But I learned.

Let's learn things by living through them.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[freakydiver 0]

I hear yah and fully agree with you. I guess I'm irritated by the automatic sign off on 1.3 and 100 jumps as being oh so dangerous...

Great comments and thoughts all...

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[Ron 7]

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I fully believe 1.3 is doable for some people around 100 jumps if they are smart and DESIRE to learn correctly.

Doable? Yes. Smart? No. It just takes a minor mistake to make it fatal.

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There are numerous examples of it out there - it exemplifies what correct and diligent education can do to expedite a learning process.

And there are plenty of body bags filled with guys that thought they could handle it.

No one thinks they will screw up and get killed.
Everyone thinks they can handle the situation.

If everyone can handle the sistuation...Then why do so many folks die?

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I learned brake turns early, I learned the importance of setting up my landing pattern with some forethought, I learned to have my head on a swivel.

OK, but it takes only ONE tiny mistake to kill you.

I find it very hard to believe that someone with 100 jumps has gotten enough experience to be able to say that he knows what he needs to know. Its only 100 jumps..that means 100 landings. No amount of instruction can replace experience.

If it could then Chris could sit and talk with me for a few hours and I would get my Multi Engine Rating from the FAA.

While I CAN learn on the ground..I have to DO IT to really learn it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[davelepka 4]

OK, would you go for this? How about a jumper who has the additional training AND is jumping a conservative WL untill the repetiton of experiece has "built-in" some basic survival responses.

Yes, it can be done, and people have jumped with x jumps at y WL before. But it's a real shame when you see an accident, and the medical bills, months of rehab, and distruption of a life due to a poor decision. Yes, accidents happen, and sometimes it is genuine bad luck, but in a case where a jumper can choose thier equipment, doesn't it make sense to encourage conservative choices, rather than reinforce the idea that 'I did it, and others have too'?

It's no secret that newbies will be newbies, and do things that aren't smart. Why encourage them? Why not discourge that behaviour as much as possible, and let Darwin do what Darwin will do?

[freakydiver 0]

Tell that to all of the ads in our beloved safety oriented USPA publication . I'm not trying to encourage noobs. I'm playing a bit of the devil's advocate here and pointing out what can be done, imho - safely, with proper oversight.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[davelepka 4]

I understand what you're doing, my question was why? Especailly if you feel that the industry is marketing things in the wrong direction. Wouldn't that make it even more important to steer things in the right (safer) direction? Why not play devils advocte to the unsafe advertisers?

[elfanie 0]

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I'll do that, since scott didn't. What canopy are you currently jumping, and at what loading?

Doesn't it also have to do with the actual canopy size as well as wingloading?

A wingloading of 1.3 on a rectangular 230 is not the same as a wingloading of 1.3 on an eliptical 135....right?

--------------------------------------------
Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[Ron 7]

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Tell that to all of the ads in our beloved safety oriented USPA publication . I'm not trying to encourage noobs. I'm playing a bit of the devil's advocate here and pointing out what can be done, imho - safely, with proper oversight

You don't see many ads for the Ford Escort...

You see tons for the Mustang.

Sex and High perfomance sells. (High performance sex even more so)

You don't see adds with an ugly person jumping into a Honda Civic. You see a hottie jumping into a Corvette.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[freakydiver 0]

Because I've found it doesn't matter how much I rant and rave, people still find ways to get what they want, smaller and faster canopies. Hell, I did.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[scotts 0]

This WAS NOT directed as a personal attack. If everone read my initial post, it wasn't directed at anyone but a new jumper. I didn't/don't want to point fingers at anyone. But I was asked to explain my post. I did.

This post was initiated because a friend of mine low-turned into the ground and now has a long road ahead of her. Wing loaded about the same. Hopefully this is not the end of her skydiving fun.

[WeakMindedFool 0]

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I'll do that, since scott didn't.

Damn and I was waiting for him. A little side note here, is this how it's done here? Scott didn't like my W/L so he started a thread on it. Why couldn't he ask me about it in the thread I started or PM me...oh well

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What canopy are you currently jumping, and at what loading? How many jumps do you have on it and on the previous (larger) canopy you were jumping?

I am jumping a Saber 2 170 loaded at 1.32. I have 16 jumps on it.
12 jumps on Saber 2 190
11 jumps on Saber 2 210
13 jumps on 260-229
2 tamdems

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Have you gotten any structured canopy control training on this canopy or the previous one?

Yes and no. I get ongoing training one on one jumping with instructors at the DZ specific to canopy control. Have I taken a class like Scott Millers? No. I've been corresponding with him, looking for when he's coming to the west coast (April by the way) but after reading a repost of one of his Emails on this forum I'd be surprised if he took me into his class.

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Can you turn 90 degrees at 50 feet, flare turn 45 degrees, land within a 10 meter circle, initiate HP landings with double front risers and a front riser turn, land crosswind?

Yes I can turn 90 at 50 feet (both your method, and the one I was taught in AFF)
Yes I can flare turn 45 degrees
I can hit a 10 meter circle...sometimes. I tend to land where I think I'm gonna land by this is not 100%. We have a lot of open space where I jump with very large fields to land in (It's a farming area).
I just started practicing front riser approaches, at your suggestion actually. I ran the idea by the GM and ST&A at my drop zone and they felt it would be OK for me to do. I have not initiated a front riser turn except above 2000'. After speaking with those I'm learning from, i've decided to wait until I'm 100% on all other aspects of flying my canopy to add that variable. And yes I can land crosswind (I've done it up to 10 kt)

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Could you do all that with your previous canopy?

No, of course not.
So the question is...am I going to kill myself? I might. So might you. Am I in over my head? I may be, I'm not qualified to judge that. Who's advice should I take? I've been watching these forums for almost a year. I don't generally get involved in skydiving discussions because I don't have the experience or desire to give advice. If there is one constant, looking from the outside in, it's the lack of consensus on just about everything. Ironically W/L is one area most all seem to agree upon. I can not and will not defend my choice to jump a 170, it would be foolish of me to do so in the face of so much experience. All I will say is that those I learned from, continue to learn from tell me I'm on the right canopy for me. This is not one persons opinion but many. These are people I trust who know me. Yes I know I'm trusting them with my life, and yes I do trust them that much. Mostly I trust myself and how I react when things go wrong, I appreciate all of your advice over the last year Bill, you don't even realize how much of it I have taken. I have a copy of your downsizing checklist in my log book as well as on my desk top. This issue, however, I'm going to stick with the advice of those I jump with.


All right everyone......GO!

Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves.
-Eric Hoffer -
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[diverdriver 5]

I'll just ask: Are you planning on downsizing from that canopy any time soon? Why did you feel you had to downsize from the 190? Was the 190 rental gear and were looking for something to buy? Was that part of the decision making?

Seems you have some background with the Sabre 2s so it's not so brand new to you. How long did it take you to get the jumps you do have?