NeedToJump 0 #76 February 27, 2004 QuoteThe point is that people still don't listen Do you expect that that will change? I didn't, I do now.Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #77 February 27, 2004 So. I went through and read this entire thread...slowly and carefully, to make sure I got all of it before I commented. I have a question: What does WeakMindedFool do for a living? Anyone? Where does he live? What kind of car does he drive? What kind of a person is he? If you don't know, how can you attempt to determine if he can or cannot handle the canopy he's flying currently? The point is, if you don't know a person, you can do nothing but "pigeon hole" them into some "category". We often make the blanket statement that "Young jumpers shouldn't be on XXX or XXX loaded at XXX". This might make sense for an arbitrary person that you've never met before and have no other information on, but it's been stated that the jumper we're talking about is progressing along a path based on the input from not one, but several different instructors that have complete first hand knowledge of his skills, personality type and background...something, it would appear, no one that has posted in this thread so-far has. Some people are simply more adept at certain skills than others. What it might take the "average" guy a 1000 jumps to learn, certain people will be able to learn in only a few hundred. That's the way of the world...some people are simply better than others at certain things. Several people made constructive comments in regards to keeping with coaching and staying tied in with Local Instructors when it comes to learning at a bit above the "standard curve". Good for you! Way to be open minded and understand that not everyone comes out of the same mold. For those of you that are convinced that there is only one mold that a skydiver pops out of, or that are too old and jaded to give a second thought that anyone might be able to learn faster than you did, maybe it's time you lay off a bit. I've been to more than my fair share of skydiving accidents, and I've been right in the middle of one that tried to smote me from this earth, so I definitely understand about Black Death. Anyone that's been around for a few years has seen it. It's simply part of the sport. We all do our best to prevent it, but we'll never defeat it. However, none of that changes the fact that we are all different and we all learn at different rates. It is possible to acquire skills and knowledge faster than the "average". Jason's got a good head on his shoulders and he understands what's what. I know this from countless hours of talking canopies/skydiving with him. If I didn't, I wouldn't have recommended that he purchase a 170. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #78 February 27, 2004 And then again, really lightweight people may never hit 1.3 (at least not if they're not into FS and wearing loads of lead). And some people may never feel ready at all. I come close to 1.4 with my Lightning 126 and 8 or 9 kilos of lead, which I would not recommend and I only did this a couple times. Actually the lightning lands better that way, because I usually land it from full flight, no extra speed... This speeds it up all right Last weekend I put 3 jumps on my new Tri 120, WL 1.3. This is one small canopy! Feels a whole lot smaller then my Lightning 126 too (measurement difference? Or just perception?). I'm not allowed to go smaller for the next 540 jumps, I can go elliptical tho. But this canopy FLIES. And I love it! However I shudder to think about having to fly this canopy when I had like a 100 jumps. Yikes. Still, I've seen Tri 120's as first canopies for light girls (admittedly, much lighter then me, but still), with wingloads of <1. So, wingload definately does not say it all... I still don't entirely agree with our new canopy rules (which would've kept me at a non-elliptical 150 for another 40 jumps), but I'm coming around ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #79 February 27, 2004 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The point is that people still don't listen -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Do you expect that that will change? I didn't, I do now I can hope...I hate to see dead people."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #80 February 27, 2004 QuoteIt is possible to acquire skills and knowledge faster than the "average". You are 100% correct. The problem on dz.com is that we can't assume that every jumper is one who can do it, nor do we have the advantage of being able to actually see most people fly a canopy, nor do we know who has given this person advice (ie instructor, rigger or his buddy Joe who has 50 jumps). For those reasons I think that "advice" on gear selection given over the internet should be conservative enough that the "average" jumper is going to be able to fly and land their canopy safely, even if they make minor mistakes. QuoteJason's got a good head on his shoulders and he understands what's what. Judging solely by his replies on this thread, it appears to me that he does understand what he's gotten into. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #81 February 27, 2004 QuoteIt is possible to acquire skills and knowledge faster than the "average". Jason's got a good head on his shoulders and he understands what's what. I know this from countless hours of talking canopies/skydiving with him. If I didn't, I wouldn't have recommended that he purchase a 170. Yes it is possible for people to learn faster. But not everyone can do that...And lets face it all skydivers think they are better than average. So who is really above average? Where are all these *Average* skydivers that are not at any DZ I have ever been to....Are they all in Montana? I have never been to Montana. I have never seen anyone that calls themselves average..And I have been to over 50 DZ's in about 20 states. 100% of the people that are dead in this sport thought they could handle it. And I bet others thought the same when they told them they would be ok. But we see many jumpers killing themselves under canopies with high wingloads and few jumps. While it might not be right 100% of the time...I would bet a guy with 50 jumps on a 1.5 loaded Stiletto is a bad idea 95% of the time. Just like it is fairly easy to say that student will do better on a Navigator 220 for his first jump than a Stiletto 150. Or a student pilot will be safer in a Cessna 152 than a Bonanza. Or a guys first white water trip should be class 1,2,3 not 3,4,5. New SCUBA divers are safer at less than 60 feet deep in open water than at 300 feet in a cave on tri-mix with stage bottles. For MOST people there needs to be a progression. I advanced fast in Skydiving I have done over 300 jumps a year for 10 years. SCUBA I went from Open water to Master in less than 6 mths. But I dove almost EVERY day, sometimes two TRIPS a day (Thats 2-4 dives a DAY) for those 6 mths...And I did all kinds of CLASSES and dove with INSTRUCTORS on almost every dive. (they were the only one who were off durring the week). At the end of those six mths I was in a cave at 200 feet on mixed gas. But I had had almost 200 SCUBA dives by then, and a slew of ratings. I think there needs to be canopy ratings..I have no issue with folks pushing it as long as they take a step progression and PROVE they can handle it. With flying I was doing acro before I had a pilots license. But my Dad was a pilot, and I had been in planes since I was 3. I also built and flew all kinds of models, and I had already had 100 jumps before I started taking "official" lessons. In all of these people gave me shit, said I was going to fast...Guess what? If you are pushing it...Expect to get it. My friends got shit for pushing me...Again..If you are in that position expect to get shit for it...They expected alot of it, and If I havd gotten killed 500 feet back in a cave at 200 feet...They would have gotten a rash of shit for it. If this guy hooks in...He is gonna get shit for it...And you are also. But like I said everyone thinks they are *special* and *gifted*...Even the folks that killed themselves."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WeakMindedFool 0 #82 February 27, 2004 Quote In all of these people gave me shit, said I was going to fast...Guess what? If you are pushing it...Expect to get it. My friends got shit for pushing me...Again..If you are in that position expect to get shit for it...They expected alot of it, and If I havd gotten killed 500 feet back in a cave at 200 feet...They would have gotten a rash of shit for it. If this guy hooks in...He is gonna get shit for it...And you are also. But like I said everyone thinks they are *special* and *gifted*...Even the folks that killed themselves. So this is like the prison sex version of extreme sports? The 'do unto others as has been done to you'? You would make a wonderful cellie for the new guys! Let me make one thing clear, I made my decision. Did I get information from Ryan? Yes. Was he the only source? No. I'm a big boy and I've assessed the risks. I could give a long list to qualify that statement, explain why I'm good at assessing risks to me, and have a long history of being right....but your just gonna have to take my word for it. If I "hook it in" it will be no ones fault but my own.Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves. -Eric Hoffer - Check out these Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #83 February 27, 2004 QuoteSo this is like the prison sex version of extreme sports? The 'do unto others as has been done to you'? No, its called surviving my own stupidity, watching others dieing and learning from it. I would also save you the pain I have had or the things I have seen. QuoteNo. I'm a big boy and I've assessed the risks. I could give a long list to qualify that statement, explain why I'm good at assessing risks to me, and have a long history of being right....but your just gonna have to take my word for it. If I "hook it in" it will be no ones fault but my own. Just like all the others that said the exact same thing and I helped hold together till the paramedics arrived or worse all the guys that killed themselves? Its clear you "know" better than everyone. Gee, I wish I was as knowledgeable as you when I had 50 jumps. I would be a world champ now...Or dead. I guess you know better than a guy with 3,000 jumps 10 years, that has been an instructor since 1995, has a pro rating, and has jumps on canopies as small as 69 at 2.6:1. Your right...It is your choice...But I think its a bad one...I really do hope you do fine. Its 50/50 Either you will die or you will not."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WeakMindedFool 0 #84 February 27, 2004 Quote No, its called surviving my own stupidity, watching others dieing and learning from it. I would also save you the pain I have had or the things I have seen. It's the manner in which you make your argument that I take issue with. I guaranty you what you have seen is NOTHING compared to the number broken people I have. I say this not to belittle your experience but rather to show you that maybe you are not the only one with it. Quote Just like all the others that said the exact same thing and I helped hold together till the paramedics arrived or worse all the guys that killed themselves? Its clear you "know" better than everyone. Gee, I wish I was as knowledgeable as you when I had 50 jumps. I would be a world champ now...Or dead. I guess you know better than a guy with 3,000 jumps 10 years, that has been an instructor since 1995, has a pro rating, and has jumps on canopies as small as 69 at 2.6:1. You like to say this, I've read it before in other threads. I don't know you, there is an under current in your posts that smacks of arrogance. I don't trust that arrogance regardless of your jump numbers. For now I will trust the people I am around, who have approached me from a position on confidence and understanding that is easily recognizable as competence. I do not have the experience that you do nor do you have mine. You think my choice is a bad one? OK, I get that. You feel I am not making an informed choice, I disagree. QuoteYour right...It is your choice...But I think its a bad one...I really do hope you do fine. Its 50/50 Either you will die or you will not. In the end time will, as it always does, tell. I really hope I do fine too. I'd give myself better then 50/50 but that must be my not being a guy with 3,000 jumps 10 years, that has been an instructor since 1995, has a pro rating, and has jumps on canopies as small as 69 at 2.6:1. This started as an attempt to find some information on my canopy, and some of the characteristics that it has been exhibiting. I was using DZ.Com as third source of information. I would never take information I've gained here as a primary learning tool, thank you for reinforcing that point of view!Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves. -Eric Hoffer - Check out these Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pccoder 0 #85 February 27, 2004 QuoteI drank what? Are you sure that was Socrates or Val Kilmer? PcCoder.net Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WeakMindedFool 0 #86 February 27, 2004 QuoteQuoteI drank what? Are you sure that was Socrates or Val Kilmer? LOL...Your good! OK, it's Val quoting Socrates!Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves. -Eric Hoffer - Check out these Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pccoder 0 #87 February 27, 2004 Yea, it was something like, "I think of the immortal words of Socrates when he said 'I drank what?'" PcCoder.net Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #88 February 27, 2004 QuoteIt's the manner in which you make your argument that I take issue with Too bad. I call things like I see them. Quote guaranty you what you have seen is NOTHING compared to the number broken people I have. I GUARANTY I have seen more broken skydivers. And they all had the "I got it" attitude. They got it all right. QuoteYou like to say this, I've read it before in other threads. I don't know you, there is an under current in your posts that smacks of arrogance As does your posts. QuoteIn the end time will, as it always does, tell. I really hope I do fine too. I'd give myself better then 50/50 The 50/50 as in you will live or you will die..Thats one or the other...thats 50/50. QuoteThis started as an attempt to find some information on my canopy, and some of the characteristics that it has been exhibiting. That right there tells me you don't have enough knowledge to jump it. QuoteI would never take information I've gained here as a primary learning tool, thank you for reinforcing that point of view! Well you do have that right...Don't trust what is said here. I really do hope you do fine..But I have seen WAY to many people have the "I know what I am doing attitude" and I have seen many of them broken. I'll tell ya, hospitals suck. I had a nice hospital trip when I have 370 jumps on a 1.4 load stiletto. Luckly God favors idiots and children and I was both young AND stupid as hell. The profile was 300-500 jumps, 1.5 wingload and had been talked to before about canopy flight. And like I said..I really do hope you are fine...I hate broken skydivers, and dead ones are worse."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveNFlorida 0 #89 February 28, 2004 QuoteI GUARANTY I have seen more broken skydivers. And they all had the "I got it" attitude. They got it all right. Of course they do. Hopefully all skydivers feel comfortable with what they're jumping. If they don't, they shouldn't jump it. Yes, some will get hurt. That is inevitable. QuoteThe 50/50 as in you will live or you will die..Thats one or the other...thats 50/50. I don't think anyone has a problem of understanding what 50/50 means. I think what he was saying is that he thinks/hopes he has better chances than that. There's always a chance that you'll die. Again, the nature of the sport. But, if he learns to fly his canopy well, and respects it, he likely has more chance than someone who doesn't bother to look into getting instruction, or someone who spirals down to 500 feet before landing, etc, etc., even if skydiver #2 is loading less. Quote And like I said..I really do hope you are fine...I hate broken skydivers, and dead ones are worse. Noone wants to see broken skydivers. Or, broken anybodys for that matter. Keeping all people at a low w/l would still not prevent it. You'll always have people who react poorly to high stress situations. And, even under a 1:1 loaded canopy, these people will get hurt. Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WeakMindedFool 0 #90 February 28, 2004 Alright...I'm done. There is no point to it. He want's to be this way, I say we let him. I'm gonna step back from the computer and let him have his bowl. I'm comfortable in the people who I'm learning from and that's all that really matters. Peace Angela! JasonFaith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves. -Eric Hoffer - Check out these Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveNFlorida 0 #91 February 28, 2004 QuoteAlright...I'm done. There is no point to it. He want's to be this way, I say we let him. I'm gonna step back from the computer and let him have his bowl. I'm comfortable in the people who I'm learning from and that's all that really matters. Peace Angela! Jason Gotcha. I'll stop bothering to reply here, let the thread die. Never should've been started, imo. Take care, Jason. I wish you many sweet canopy rides:) Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #92 February 28, 2004 QuoteOf course they do. Hopefully all skydivers feel comfortable with what they're jumping. If they don't, they shouldn't jump it. Overconfidence kills. Respect for the dangers is good. QuoteI don't think anyone has a problem of understanding what 50/50 means You miss it in this way...Maybe I didn't expalin it right...Its an old joke. OK...He either lives or he dies. Thats 50/50. It either happens or it does not...Think Binary...It is on or it is off...Thats 0 or 1....The chances of one of them happening is 100% He will either live, or he will die. The chances of either happening is 50/50...Thats not his chances of dying. Its my way of saying "Fuck it he is not going to listen...Why bother wasting my time and air on it". I have seen this same type of guy over and over...some do fine...Others get dead/broken. All the experience in the world does not carry over into skydiving. I know two commercial pilots that are dead due to low turns. They know more than me in every way about stuff that flies...But they both died. I know many more that are broken. QuoteNoone wants to see broken skydivers. Or, broken anybodys for that matter. Keeping all people at a low w/l would still not prevent it. Its about physics and potental energy. A higher wingload will put more energy into the same type of fuck up...that means more and worse injuries...And the bonus is that a higher wingload will also be harder to fly and that your choices need to be better and faster. And there is less room for error. So lower wingloads ARE safer....I tell you what call a flight school. Tell them you want to learn to fly in a Pitts special...See what they say. Get 100 hours and tell them you want to solo a Pitts special...Again they are going to laugh at you. QuoteAnd, even under a 1:1 loaded canopy, these people will get hurt. Yes but they will get hurt less...And they will have more time to react under the canopy. You have made mistakes under canopy right? Why? Things happen fast at high wingloads....You have to be better, and faster than on lower wingloads... Im sorry to say but this is FACT. It has nothing to do with any amount of jumps...Ratings...Blah blah bblah as you like to say...It is simple physics.... Potental energy is a mother fucker...And it hurts. But I just don't see how that is hard to understand? Oh well like I said 50/50"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #93 February 28, 2004 OK, the same thing has been said about a dozen times by all sides of this discussion, so it's about time it ended. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
