bmcd308 0
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***i would cut away, make sure my risers have seperated from teh harness with a sweeping motion, and then silver
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Lets take a good look at this idea.
First of all, you're still at terminal, and things are happening quickly. Any non-essential steps will use up more altitude than you think.
Second, it's already been mentioned in this thread, thread that a jumper had his main come out of the container, and as it tried to get past the opening reserve, the loose main risers fouled the reserve. The jumper survived, but only by being extremely lucky. Your plan would ensure that even if the main container remained closed, your main risers would be swinging free while your reserve is deploying.
These seem like two very good reasons NOT to do what you had outlined. What are you trying to accomplish with your actions? Is there a better way to achieve your desired result? How about this:
You go straight to silver. Get the reserve out, and bring the ride to a halt. Game over. If your main has decieded to deploy alongside of your reserve, now you have two out, and should know the procedure. If your main didn't deploy, pull your cutaway now, and manually disconnect the risers. If your main container should open, the main will fall down and away from you (and your reserve) before it gets out of the bag. If your main container stays closed, you land with your main, and only have a freebag to find in the trees (or cactus, or whatever).
The scenario you want to avoid is a main reserve entanglement. Your procedure opens the door for the main to realease and go flying past the opening reserve. BAD. By leaving the cutaway in place, you turn that into a two-out scenario. BETTER. By pulling the cutaway after your reserve is open, if the main is still in the container, you eliminate either possibility. BEST.
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Lets take a good look at this idea.
First of all, you're still at terminal, and things are happening quickly. Any non-essential steps will use up more altitude than you think.
Second, it's already been mentioned in this thread, thread that a jumper had his main come out of the container, and as it tried to get past the opening reserve, the loose main risers fouled the reserve. The jumper survived, but only by being extremely lucky. Your plan would ensure that even if the main container remained closed, your main risers would be swinging free while your reserve is deploying.
These seem like two very good reasons NOT to do what you had outlined. What are you trying to accomplish with your actions? Is there a better way to achieve your desired result? How about this:
You go straight to silver. Get the reserve out, and bring the ride to a halt. Game over. If your main has decieded to deploy alongside of your reserve, now you have two out, and should know the procedure. If your main didn't deploy, pull your cutaway now, and manually disconnect the risers. If your main container should open, the main will fall down and away from you (and your reserve) before it gets out of the bag. If your main container stays closed, you land with your main, and only have a freebag to find in the trees (or cactus, or whatever).
The scenario you want to avoid is a main reserve entanglement. Your procedure opens the door for the main to realease and go flying past the opening reserve. BAD. By leaving the cutaway in place, you turn that into a two-out scenario. BETTER. By pulling the cutaway after your reserve is open, if the main is still in the container, you eliminate either possibility. BEST.
billvon 2,400
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Y'know, as I read these, I get the feeling that there are some illusions people have about malfunctions. I recently read another thread that discussed what to do about a lineover - should they cut it? Should they fix it? I think people have an image of a mal where they look up, realize right away what's going on, grab their handy knife, pluck the offending line from the bunch, cut it, stow the knife away, and land safely in the peas.
Mals ain't like that. Mals are very fast, unexpected, violent things. You have time to do maybe one or two things if you do them fast and well. Fortunately, you can deal with most mals by doing one or two things. People die in this sport not because they didn't elbow the container, or because they didn't pull on the bridle to "clear" the mal, or they didn't "clear the risers from the harness with a sweeping motion" - they die because they had a mal and they didn't cut away and open their reserve. Some of them, in fact, died _because_ they were trying to clear mals that weren't clearable. One jumper I knew spent the rest of his life trying to clear a total on a pullout, and didn't open his reserve until about 200 feet. And I'm willing to bet that, until 500 feet or so, he was positive he could clear that minor problem.
There's nothing wrong with talking about how you will deal with a mal. But I worry when I hear people talking seriously about complex solutions to simple problems. Because if you ever _do_ have a mal, the thing that's most likely to kill you is the silly stuff you do that distracts you from cutting away and opening your reserve before impact.
Mals ain't like that. Mals are very fast, unexpected, violent things. You have time to do maybe one or two things if you do them fast and well. Fortunately, you can deal with most mals by doing one or two things. People die in this sport not because they didn't elbow the container, or because they didn't pull on the bridle to "clear" the mal, or they didn't "clear the risers from the harness with a sweeping motion" - they die because they had a mal and they didn't cut away and open their reserve. Some of them, in fact, died _because_ they were trying to clear mals that weren't clearable. One jumper I knew spent the rest of his life trying to clear a total on a pullout, and didn't open his reserve until about 200 feet. And I'm willing to bet that, until 500 feet or so, he was positive he could clear that minor problem.
There's nothing wrong with talking about how you will deal with a mal. But I worry when I hear people talking seriously about complex solutions to simple problems. Because if you ever _do_ have a mal, the thing that's most likely to kill you is the silly stuff you do that distracts you from cutting away and opening your reserve before impact.
sundevil777 93
Please entertain what might be another plan for dealing with a PC in tow.
Reach back with right hand, doing your best to hold down the main against your back as you pull the reserve.
The advantage: If the reserve deploying clears the PC in tow, you might delay the main getting pulled out of the harness just for a little while. Perhaps long enough that when the main does come out you are already under an inflated reserve and the main just falls down below you.
I am not advocating this plan, just want to throw it out there as food for thought. I would be interested to see if it is possible to do. It could be simulated by rigging a main like a tandem (regular PC as drogue), then trying to hold the container closed while pulling the drogue release. If you can hold it for a second, that could be a big advantage. It probably wouldn't take any more time than executing a cutaway before going for reserve.
Also, what is this about clearing the risers with a sweeping motion after chopping. You might as well try to open your riser covers also. I don't think clearing the 3-rings would be so easy to do with the riser covers that come quite close to the 3-rings on many rigs. I think cutting away and clearing the risers would definitely take more time than my proposal.
Reach back with right hand, doing your best to hold down the main against your back as you pull the reserve.
The advantage: If the reserve deploying clears the PC in tow, you might delay the main getting pulled out of the harness just for a little while. Perhaps long enough that when the main does come out you are already under an inflated reserve and the main just falls down below you.
I am not advocating this plan, just want to throw it out there as food for thought. I would be interested to see if it is possible to do. It could be simulated by rigging a main like a tandem (regular PC as drogue), then trying to hold the container closed while pulling the drogue release. If you can hold it for a second, that could be a big advantage. It probably wouldn't take any more time than executing a cutaway before going for reserve.
Also, what is this about clearing the risers with a sweeping motion after chopping. You might as well try to open your riser covers also. I don't think clearing the 3-rings would be so easy to do with the riser covers that come quite close to the 3-rings on many rigs. I think cutting away and clearing the risers would definitely take more time than my proposal.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am
McGowan had a pilot chute in tow yesterday.
He cut away the main and deployed his reserve. This is a high speed mal and there are different schools of thought as how to best deal with it.
This is McGowans 2nd pilot chute in tow in over 10,000 jumps. The first one he ended up with a double mal.
He cut away the main and deployed his reserve. This is a high speed mal and there are different schools of thought as how to best deal with it.
This is McGowans 2nd pilot chute in tow in over 10,000 jumps. The first one he ended up with a double mal.
hookitt 0
A horshoe mal function happened to one our local jumpers, a line was caught on his foot some how, he he tried take off his shoe until impact. No other handles were pulled. His girlfriend said he deployed his main Pilot chute at about 3000 feetQuote...Mals are very fast, unexpected, violent things. You have time to do maybe one or two things if you do them fast and well <...>Because if you ever _do_ have a mal, the thing that's most likely to kill you is the silly stuff you do that distracts you from cutting away and opening your reserve before impact.
Altitude permitting, don't try to fix a problem for more than one or 2 quick attempts just like you were taught in ground school.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto
sundevil777 93
QuoteMcGowan had a pilot chute in tow yesterday.
What caused the PC in tow?
Did the main container open when the reserve deployed?
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am
QuoteDid the main container open when the reserve deployed
Yes.
As to the cause of the mal I'll let you know shortly. The information given wasn't clear and I would like to offer a factual accounting.
BB
billvon 2,400
>Reach back with right hand, doing your best to hold down the main
>against your back as you pull the reserve.
I worry about this for the same reason I worry about someone "holding down" a floating reserve handle as they pull. They open their main head down (because their other hand is on their chest) have a slammer of an opening, and end up _pulling_ the reserve because they can't hold their hand against their chest during a 10G opening. I've seen this happen twice.
If you try to hold your bag in? I can see one of four things happening:
1. Nothing; it has no effect because the pin doesn't get pulled and the container doesn't open.
2. The main opens anyway.
3. The container opens and you successfully hold onto the 8 pound (80 pound during a 10G opening) main bag during deployment.
4. Your hand slips during the hard opening, pulls the pin, and you end up with a dual deployment you would not otherwise have had - with your right hand potentially stuck in the lines.
>against your back as you pull the reserve.
I worry about this for the same reason I worry about someone "holding down" a floating reserve handle as they pull. They open their main head down (because their other hand is on their chest) have a slammer of an opening, and end up _pulling_ the reserve because they can't hold their hand against their chest during a 10G opening. I've seen this happen twice.
If you try to hold your bag in? I can see one of four things happening:
1. Nothing; it has no effect because the pin doesn't get pulled and the container doesn't open.
2. The main opens anyway.
3. The container opens and you successfully hold onto the 8 pound (80 pound during a 10G opening) main bag during deployment.
4. Your hand slips during the hard opening, pulls the pin, and you end up with a dual deployment you would not otherwise have had - with your right hand potentially stuck in the lines.
This is definitely one of those subjects with no clearly right or wrong answer.
There are pros and cons to either choice.
My personal rule is cutaway first, then reserve.
Yes, it takes a moment to cutaway, but it also takes time to analyze exactly what malfunction you've got and decide what to do about it.
I'm a big fan of simple decision trees for high speed, high stress situations.
These situations impair your ability to think and distort your perception of time.
A dangerous combo.
Be wary of looking at any single incident for guidance.
Good skydivers have had poor outcomes with both emergency procedures. There aren't any guarantees. You have to stack the odds in your favor and let the chips fall where they may.
-Josh
There are pros and cons to either choice.
My personal rule is cutaway first, then reserve.
Yes, it takes a moment to cutaway, but it also takes time to analyze exactly what malfunction you've got and decide what to do about it.
I'm a big fan of simple decision trees for high speed, high stress situations.
These situations impair your ability to think and distort your perception of time.
A dangerous combo.
Be wary of looking at any single incident for guidance.
Good skydivers have had poor outcomes with both emergency procedures. There aren't any guarantees. You have to stack the odds in your favor and let the chips fall where they may.
-Josh
If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me*
*Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.
*Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.
sundevil777 93
QuoteIf you try to hold your bag in? I can see one of four things happening:
1. Nothing; it has no effect because the pin doesn't get pulled and the container doesn't open.
2. The main opens anyway.
3. The container opens and you successfully hold onto the 8 pound (80 pound during a 10G opening) main bag during deployment.
4. Your hand slips during the hard opening, pulls the pin, and you end up with a dual deployment you would not otherwise have had - with your right hand potentially stuck in the lines.
Scenario 3 & 4 means that the main drops below you (during the opening shock I think that is where it would go. Even if it starts to deploy, it does so completely away from the reserve, and would inflate behind you, easy to cutaway safely.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am
QuoteMcGowan had a pilot chute in tow yesterday.
He cut away the main and deployed his reserve. This is a high speed mal and there are different schools of thought as how to best deal with it.
This is McGowans 2nd pilot chute in tow in over 10,000 jumps. The first one he ended up with a double mal.
Did the main clear???? more details!
yoink 321
QuoteAlso, what is this about clearing the risers with a sweeping motion after chopping. You might as well try to open your riser covers also. I don't think clearing the 3-rings would be so easy to do with the riser covers that come quite close to the 3-rings on many rigs. I think cutting away and clearing the risers would definitely take more time than my proposal.
I'm jumping a Teardrop SF. The riser covers come right down to the 3-rings on it and are very tight. I certainly wouldn't want to be trying to open them in a high speed mal situation.
I'm not quite sure why you'd want to clear the risers to be honest. OK, it might reduce the chance of a two out scenario, but I would have thought that there would be a greater chance of your main risers getting tangled in your deploying reserve. Please correct me if my logic is wrong.
For what it's worth, a PC in tow is a nightmare for me because there is no definate solution. I like the idea of pulling the bridle to open the main, but I suspect I'd just automatically do my full reserve drills...
not cool.ericber 0
Hello:
Many years ago I was told a basic rule about this nasty malfunction. As we all know, altitude passes very quickly up there and if you do anything, pull before impact. Don't get tunnel vision trying to clear it until it is too late. If the tow won't clear by you or natural clearing, keep track of altitude awareness and pull your reserve; you have no other option.
Be Safe
Many years ago I was told a basic rule about this nasty malfunction. As we all know, altitude passes very quickly up there and if you do anything, pull before impact. Don't get tunnel vision trying to clear it until it is too late. If the tow won't clear by you or natural clearing, keep track of altitude awareness and pull your reserve; you have no other option.
Be Safe
QuoteDid the main clear???? more details!
Container: Tear Drop
Reserve: Raven loaded @ 1.54
Main: Nitron 135
Jumps 10,000+
The main was cut away and cleared.
On the tear drop the bridle must have slack over the pin. After speaking with the packer he assured me that there was more than enough slack in the bridle.
Upon inspection, the pilot chute was not cocked. Everything at this point is speculation.
Quotehere it is monday morning and i am feeling much much better. in fact i am thinking that it might be a strong possibility i will be able to get back in the air by the end of this week. amazing what all that good energy can do. thanks again every one.
on the way to the hospital betsy asked me what could be learned from all this.(very good question) the obvious is... get a pin check on evey jump and jump equipment that is suited for your kind of skydiving. i had no business with a zp reserve. what would have been a bit of an ouch opening for someone else nearly broke my neck.
for the record after a lot of consideration i am fairly well convinced what i had was due to a uncocked pc.probably had i been a bit more patient i might have gotten that main open but then this was a very fast malfunction and quick decisions seem to be necessary. if i ever do go in i don't want to have any handles left to pull.
peace
mcgowan
fudd 0
Again I'll chip in with my view.
- If you get a PC in tow you probably don't expect it.
- The PC in tow can be cause by several condition. uncocked pc, bridle routed wrong, pc in burble, tight pin, broken bridal, blown up pc, bridal knotted over pc...
What happens from pull time? Lets say you pull at 3000'.
- After 3 seconds you realize there is something wrong and start to act. You are now at about 2300 feet.
- You dip a shoulder and look to clear the burble. You are now at 2000'
- You try to reach and yank the bridle. This takes two seconds. You are at 1600'. Still nothing out except a PC.
- Now you decide to go to EPs. Decision takes 1 second. You are at 1400'
- You either cut away, or goes right for the reserve. You activate your reserve at somewhere between 1200'-1000'.
Total altitude spent identifying and trying to deal with the mal: 1500'
Total altidude used to initiate and execute full EPs: 500'
Try the above reasoning if you open at 2500'
What's more dangerous. Fireing the reserver with or without cutting away, or trying to clear a high speed mal?
If you start messing with it, you will have a low reserver opening. If you should have to go for your reserve handle twice, you better have a cypres!
Fatalaties are usually a chain of events. don't add links to this chain if you don't have to.
There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
- If you get a PC in tow you probably don't expect it.
- The PC in tow can be cause by several condition. uncocked pc, bridle routed wrong, pc in burble, tight pin, broken bridal, blown up pc, bridal knotted over pc...
What happens from pull time? Lets say you pull at 3000'.
- After 3 seconds you realize there is something wrong and start to act. You are now at about 2300 feet.
- You dip a shoulder and look to clear the burble. You are now at 2000'
- You try to reach and yank the bridle. This takes two seconds. You are at 1600'. Still nothing out except a PC.
- Now you decide to go to EPs. Decision takes 1 second. You are at 1400'
- You either cut away, or goes right for the reserve. You activate your reserve at somewhere between 1200'-1000'.
Total altitude spent identifying and trying to deal with the mal: 1500'
Total altidude used to initiate and execute full EPs: 500'
Try the above reasoning if you open at 2500'
What's more dangerous. Fireing the reserver with or without cutting away, or trying to clear a high speed mal?
If you start messing with it, you will have a low reserver opening. If you should have to go for your reserve handle twice, you better have a cypres!
Fatalaties are usually a chain of events. don't add links to this chain if you don't have to.
There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Auryn 0
QuoteAnd I never pull lower than 3,000, so I have time.
***
Never say never. Time's rarely on our side in this sport.
Amen. I never pull below 3000 either. except for that time I lost altitude awareness and pulled at 1300.
I swear I didn't mean to do it !
Blue Ones !
Bryan
1) Tap container on the sides with elbows twice
2) Reach d-BAG with right hand and try to pull it out manually twice
3) Just pull reserve
<<
Those procedures will eat up a lot of time. Let's say you have drilled this procedure until it is second nature, but you pulled just a little low on this jump.
We've got -
1. Elbow. Didn't work.
2. Other elbow. Didn't work.
3. Reach back to grab d-bag. Struggle, struggle, can't quite get it.
4. Reach back to grab d-bag. Struggle, struggle, almost had it.
5. Pull reserve and hope for the best.
Better hope 6 is not impact at line stretch.
Brent
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