wmw999 2,123 #1 March 24, 2004 Is there a parallel between a helmet and a cypres? And does it matter if there is? Each is designed to protect you in situations where things get out of control, or where you were a little less careful than you might have otherwise been. But while I am perfectly willing to jump without a cypres, I'd prefer to jump with a helmet. I've jumped without one; probably 100 jumps or so. I worry less on some jumps because I have it. If we want to get to the core of why or why not it's OK to feel uncomfortable without a Cypres, maybe we should look at helmets, too. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #2 March 24, 2004 Is there also a parallel between these things and shoes and gloves? For me there is. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USPA 0 #3 March 24, 2004 Lol... ok Yes off course, I wouldn't jump without a helmet cause I know I'll need it, a cypres though is highly unlickly... hehehehehe (none of the above should be taken seriious, as btw the whole US of A)... (and so it begun... )The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praetorian 1 #4 March 24, 2004 I think that is a very fair question, I'd bet the oldtimers don't have any stories about helmets being bad back in the day (which is, I think partially why a lot of older skydivers are so down on the technology though I'm probably wrong) If I may make a parallel I've noticed that motorcycle riders who choose not to wear helmets usually dont give any shit to those that choose wear them .. so why in skydiving are so many divers so quick to jump on others about useing a cypress, (not about acutally owning one but what it "implies" about them. Personaly I wear a helmet (though once I'm allowed I'll probably make at least one or two jumps with out one) Personally I use a cypress, I don't count on it I don't trust it, but the tech is proven enough that I feel it reduces far more risk then it adds .. much like a helmet. and just like a helmet or airbag I really dont want to actually have it do its intended job so I try to live like it wont Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StearmanR985 0 #5 March 25, 2004 I where a helmet when I am doing RW with more than one other person otherwise I do not. I will not jump without a cypres. Jeff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Censored 0 #6 March 25, 2004 I personally hate wearing a helmet and was wondering if anyone knew which license was required to jump without? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bch7773 0 #7 March 25, 2004 I know you have to wear a helmet while on student status... not sure about when you don't... at my DZ its a rule that you have to wear a helmet of some type until 100 jumps. I guess i always assumed its a DZ rule. MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Censored 0 #8 March 25, 2004 Thanks, Ill check around Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seal_S49 0 #9 March 25, 2004 QuoteI'd bet the oldtimers don't have any stories about helmets being bad back in the day (which is, I think partially why a lot of older skydivers are so down on the technology though I'm probably wrong) To quote Chris Rock, "What the F#@K did he just say?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
firstime 0 #10 March 25, 2004 Each is designed to protect you in situations where things get out of control, or where you were a little less careful than you might have otherwise been. I agree with your statement 100% but there was a couple of posts made from 3000+ jumpers who in their view have "never" been in that situation????? So on that note...let us wear our helmuts and " be in fashion" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #11 March 25, 2004 Personally I wear a helmet... I am tall and bang my head on airplane parts.. and since even aluminium is harder than my head I think it prudent... Also not wearing a helmet cause me GREAT PAIN after the skydive... Talk about SERIOUS TANGLES in my hair... OWWWWWWEEEEEEEE Cypres.. I have one.. I will use it.. For my water jump rigs.. no cypres but those will be hop and pops so I highly doubt if I will smaxh into someone else or someone will smash into me and be unconcious. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #12 March 25, 2004 I'd jump mor without AAD than without a helmet. It's easier to use a camera and an audible mounted in/on a helmet than in/on an AAD scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vt1977 0 #13 March 25, 2004 Well... as of 1st April the use of both will be mandatory at my home DZ so I guess I'll be using both. I always did anyway! Vicki Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #14 March 25, 2004 QuoteIs there a parallel between a helmet and a cypres? And does it matter if there is? I think the parallel would be that there isn't a safety measure available that doesn't have a setback. What the setback of helmets would be? 1. They almost always restrict your vision and hearing. 2. Again, "getting into things you would avoid if you didn't have the gadget" At a skydiving safety congress I attended years ago one of the speakers told us that when helmets became mandatory in American football (?) due to several nasty skull fractures in the preceding period, the skull fractures indeed diminished only to be replaced with severe neck injuries. With your head protected you could bang into the other guys so hard it could leave you paralyzed... if it weren't for the cypres (and things that go "beep-beep") we would see a lot less people falling head-down, sitting or standing. It is a fact of life one can get distracted by what is going on in freefall. One of the advantages of falling belly to earth is that you see the earth coming up throughout the jump, which is a lot harder when you look up at the blue sky above, half the time. Can helmets make up for lousy landing technique? I have seen posts here where people sort of thanked their helmet manufacturer after "getting in over their head" upon arrival with their too small canopy. "Another Helmet safe!" " Uhmm... larger canopy with better training would have done the same, don't you think?" But if you want to wear one because it stops you worrying, that is OK I guess. I wear a frap hat nowadays, after loosing a dytter + goggle. I don't land on my head. "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sducoach 0 #15 March 25, 2004 Wendy, What is your issue with using a cypres? You have a couple posts out right now discussing this topic. How about stating your position and then getting off the issue. Educate. Blues, J.E.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #16 March 25, 2004 I do not see the revelance in your comment about helmets and technology. Back in 1964, at the AGM of CSPA, there was a big discussion about helmets. The big song then was " If you have a $10.00 head wear a $10.00 helmet" Ive jumped without one many times, and the big head of hair I "used to have" has all blown away.. SOB SOB. I wear one now, to save what little hair is left. I did have one nasty crack while wearing a helmet as I collided with another jumper during a demo jump. If we hadnt had helmets, we would have had headaches...biggies at that. The main resons for helmets back then was because the connectror links could give you quite a crack on the skull as your rig deployed. It was also to save your noggin from hitting rocks or anything hard on landing....if you didnt do standups. As for a Cypress, I have never worn any AAD, and never would. If there was one on a rig I was using, Id have it turned off. Sometimes I dont wear an altimeter either. Sometimes I wear an altimeter that doesnt work too well, its window dressing. The rules say you have to wear an altimeter...it doesnt say it has to work. I can pull on someone else...or eyeball it. I always obey DZ rules and open where they say I have to....but if allowed, then I pick my spot. As long as its above ground. Im comfortable with that...but I do obey DZ rules SOB SOB. I dont see the connection between tech and helmets used back in the other days. Bill Cole D-41 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pullhigh 0 #17 March 25, 2004 Both will be mandatory? And exceptions to that rule? ie. D license holders, or 1000 jump exclusion... Just curious. What DZ is this? My DZ has a Cypres rule, C license and under, AAD required. Ganja Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,123 #18 March 25, 2004 I think both helmets and AADs are excellent devices. I think that some people who use AADs as a standard piece of their defense might be glossing over the general situation that it takes a serious mistake to need one in the first place. Once an incident report begins and ends with "thank goodness he had an AAD" then the AAD has helped that person live, but has harmed the ability to learn from the mechanics of the incident. As far as helmets are concerned, I'm curious as to how close the parallel is; honestly. I don't really have to "have a position." It can be evolving, and it can change. That's why I'm interested -- it's not a closed issue for a lot of people obviously. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vt1977 0 #19 March 25, 2004 QuoteBoth will be mandatory? And exceptions to that rule? ie. D license holders, or 1000 jump exclusion... Helmets are compulsory for all in the UK anyway. Frap hats can be worn with 200 jumps but yes, some sort of headgear is mandatory regardless of jump numbers. As for the Cypres rule, see here: http://www.netheravon.com/document.asp?id=26 QuoteWhat DZ is this? Netheravon, UK. Vicki Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JKT 0 #20 March 25, 2004 I think Dukeswell (also in the UK) has made it mandatory to jump with an AAD fitted as well. Someone correct me if I am wrong.----- Official 100 jump wonder Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #21 March 25, 2004 I have a Cypress. It was a gift. I have a bonehead mindwarp it was a gift. The Cypress is in one of the 2 rigs I use. I use the helmet when I freefly cos I suck. I wear gloves in winter. I always use shoes. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #22 March 25, 2004 I can't bold a camera to my cypres... (but seriously) I have absolutly no misconseption about my helmet saving my life. I do not wear it to save my life but to stop me banging my head and making it hurt. If I'm hit hard I'm gonna be injured and no helmet is going to make much of a difference - its just another one of those risks I accept when I walk out to the plane. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praetorian 1 #23 March 25, 2004 QuoteQuoteI'd bet the oldtimers don't have any Quotestories about helmets being bad back in the day (which is, I think partially why a lot of older skydivers are so down on the technology though I'm probably wrong) To quote Chris Rock, "What the F#@K did he just say?" I'm saying that when AADs first arrived on the scene they had problems (serious problems) misfires etc, the drawbacks were so great that them might not have been an overall bennifit, Ron has pointed out to me that many skydivers hated them so much they worked hard so they were allowed to jump without them. I'm of the opinion that those experiences with early AADs have lingering effects on the current preception of AADs by those who were jumping with/around the early ones .. thats what the F#@K I'm saying ... oh and its just my preception and I could be wrong Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praetorian 1 #24 March 25, 2004 QuoteI dont see the connection between tech and helmets used back in the other days. What I'm getting at is an AAD and a helmet only do their job when something goes wrong, many skydivers are down on AADs but not helmets. I think thats partially because helmets didn't cause any problems(or at least none as major) as AADs when they first arrived. Personaly I see them as the same type of thing, something I shouldn't need, that I work hard not to need, but will be damn glad is there reguardlss of if its my mistake or an "act of god" that makes the helmet/cypress prove its value. Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #25 March 25, 2004 There are predictable problems associated with helmets, too. Their weight can increase the likelihood of an upper back or neck injury on opening. Any but the thinnest ones (read: ones that offer the least protection) can create a snag point for a loop of line going by, even if the helmet surface is relatively snag-free, by having the line catch in the gap between the skydiver's head and the helmet. In a faceplant, the edge of the helmet at the back of the neck can act as a fulcrum, making neck injuries more severe. A helmet can limit your peripheral vision, making collisions more likely. All that said, I wear one. One once saved my life when I got off a motorcycle at speed. And there are NOT certain skydives I go on where I say, "Boy, I sure wouldn't dream of doing a dive this crazy without a helmet and an AAD! Chances are I'll need them both before this genius dive plan sorts itself out." Brent ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
