April's Safety Check

[Chrisky 0]

Well, considering all the different kinds of jumpers out there, their different weights and proficiency levels, i do not hthink such regulation would be practical, except maybe for limiting wingloading and canopy design (no semi-elliptical/elliptical/Xbraced).

Still, i think this would not be necessary if people listened closer to their instructors and more experienced comrades. I had no clue of wingloading when my instructor told me a 150 would be just the right size for me. When i went to a 135 i made a much more informed decision and was a lot more aware of the factors involved and what i was looking at. I also always gave "negative advice" serious consideration.
And my instructor, who set up my first gear deal for me, would never have sold me anything smaller even if i had wanted.
When i was buying my first gear (used) i basically had my instructor make the decisions for me, but he explained me well why and what.

Some gear dealers would probably have sold me anything i wanted though without a lot of questions.

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[ladyskydiver 0]

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Do you feel we should be putting our novices out under 200sq foot and bigger?

**Not an instructor and still a baby in the sport**

It totally depends on the student and what the instructor sees. As a student, I jumped a 230, 210, 190, and then a 170 (and have been on a 170 since). Has the novice taken any canopy control classes? How are their landings? How aware are they under canopy? Are they doing hop 'n' pops to get canopy time and learn what their canopy will do? I think there are too many factors that come in to play to make a blanket statement that all novices should be....etc.... I think that it is something the instructor should help guide the novice/student in their gear selection. And, if the individual is buying their gear directly from a gear store, than the person on the other end can help guide their gear selection.

*************

I bought my first canopy and was jumping it on jump # 34. It's the same one I'm still jumping - a Silhouette 170 with a wingloading of 0.8. When I was buying my canopy, I had people telling me that I should look at a 135 or a 150 due to my size. I decided on the 170 due to the knowledge that a bad landing may not be something you can walk away from.

I have 211 jumps on this canopy now, have taken a canopy control class with Scott Miller, listened in on a canopy control class with Brian Germain as well as John LeBlanc, and have just started looking at downsizing. I'm in no hurry to downsize, and due to my larger canopy, have walked away from some landings with a few bruises - instead of a trip to the hospital.

I'm even wanting to take another canopy control class when I do downsize.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[f1shlips 2]

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even comments like "are you still flying that tuna boat?

I hear/heard comments like that regarding my sabre 210 loaded at 1.19. I figured as long as they aren't hanging underneath it with me, they're not allowed an opinion.

--
drop zone (drop'zone) n. An incestuous sesspool of broken people. -- Attributed to a whuffo girlfriend.

[skybytch 259]

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I had one older guy say that "well, my first main was a Fury 220 - those are good starter canopies... you should get one." Kind of funny, because I think he'd be loading the Fury about the same as me under my Sabre 150.

My first canopy was a Fury 220 that I loaded at about 0.7. It was a good starter canopy for me - considering the canopy control training I received (minimal - this was in 1990) and my total lack of "natural" canopy control ability. Would I recommend that size, wingloading and canopy fabric to a graduate of the ISP today? Not a chance.

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So I guess there are quite a few people out there that still have the mindset of nothing under 200!

There are still people out there who think that zp main canopies are the devil and shouldn't be flown by novices. imho they are just as wrong as those who recommend wingloadings at or over 1.2 and/or aggressive canopy types to novices.

[Ron 7]

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i cant beleive your saying stand up landing isnt a apprpriate gauge to flying your canopy. its completly relevant!

No not really.

It is ONE indication that you are ok, but not the only indication.

If I only jump at one DZ and never have had a bad spot...I might be able to never have a problem.

If you can do all of Bills famous list..THAT is a good indication that you can fly a canopy.

I know several jumpers that don't stand up landings...One of them has 5,000 jumps and is an expert at CRW...He can really fly a canopy. He just does not stand them up.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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I hear/heard comments like that regarding my sabre 210 loaded at 1.19. I figured as long as they aren't hanging underneath it with me, they're not allowed an opinion.

that quote is fucking awesome.

My buddies told me to get a St97 at 350 jumps...This was back int he day when it took two waivers to get that canopy. I got a call from PD and we talked for about 30 min. They finally said they would LET me buy a 107...I instead got a 120. My friends gave me a rash of shit about it...But I didn';t care...And I hooked the 120 in on the third jump. Im glad I was not on the 97 when I hit.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

Your poll choices are not good.

Size is not as important as planeform and WL.

A Stiletto 170 in NOT a good novice canopy. A Sabre 2 might be if the WL is around 1 to 1.

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I realize that a smaller canopy is going to be more responsive, have a quicker turn rate and thus could be more dangerous in a panic situation near the ground that could result in injuries or worse

Yep, its not the perfect day, in perfect conditions...It's the last min "oh Shit" move that kills most people. You can't really train those, and the best you can do is train the correct procedures and hope they kick in automaticly when the shit hits the fan.

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Maybe it is from the training I had right from the start, but I don't see an issue with a novice under a 170...and in some cases a 150

Depends on training, WL, planeform, MSL, knowledge and experience.

If they have had good training..Such as SDC's programs maybe it's not such an issue.

It makes a big difference if it is a Sabre or a Stiletto.

Density Altitude is a BIG factor...A 150 in FL. flies better than a 150 in AZ. or CO.

A comercial rated pilot will do better than some guy off the street.

Given the choice, I would rather have the newbie under a bigger than need canopy than a smaller than they can handle canopy.

It will let them live long enough to get the experience to jump a smaller canopy tomorrow.

"You can jump a smaller canopy tomorrow, if you live under the canopy you have today."

"Dying makes downsizing really hard."

Your opinion is kind of jaded..You learned at SDC which by most accounts has the most progressive canopy program in the US.

How many other DZ's have you jumped at around students?


Me:
3,000+ jumps, SL and Tandem instructor. Learned SL over 10 years ago. I have a PRO rating with over 100 live Demos. Jumps on everything from rounds to Xbraced 69sf pocket canopies.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[webracer 0]

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That's the kind of sale that has to stop. No dealer should have sold that canopy to that jumper.

[Note: I am not a dealer]
It is not entirely the dealer's responsibility to sell the proper canopy. Many deals these days are not done face-to-face. I feel it is the responsibility of a jumper's peers (and instructors), if anyone's responsibility at all (other than the jumper).
I will query and disuade folks making what I think are bad choices. I will even support (and suggest)grounding if they are totally inappropriate.
This is a sport of freedom, freedom to choose. It is highly unfortunate that in this case, someone's choice can affect all of us.
I think we need to teach better (myself included), and provide good examples. We need to show a progression to smaller canopies if that is what a given jumper wants (and not all do). This is what is being worked on throughout the industry.
Summary control is not the answer.
I am on a main that constantly challenges my skill/experience level. It is a choice I have made, and I do my best to fly it responsibly. I like that freedom of choice.

Troy

I am now free to exercise my downward mobility.

[damion75 0]

**200 Jump thoughts**

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Size is not as important as planeform and WL.

A Stiletto 170 in NOT a good novice canopy. A Sabre 2 might be if the WL is around 1 to 1.

I am surprised that this has not been discussed more. I find on the DZ that since the seriously high performance canopies have become more popular that people are taking canopies like to Stiletto less seriously - I have been guilty of thinking 'well maybe' myself.

Then the brain fart passes and I realise that just because there are more dangerous canopies available now, the Stilletto has not got any less dangerous for someone of my experience.

But it appears that some people think it has...

Just my thoughts, take it or leave it.

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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I have 50 jumps and am under a Tri 160 loaded at 1.05 and it's been a good canopy for me even in one of those "less than ideal" landing situations. It'll cripple me if I do something really stupid under it, but frankly I don't think it's the 1:1 - 1.1:1 first time canopy buyers that are causing craters.

It's when I get a couple hundred more jumps under my belt, start to think I'm invincible and get a 1.4:1 canopy that will be the time I screw up and instead of breaking my leg like I would under my old canopy, I'll shatter my body instead.

Hey man, that's all preventable. Learn to fly your canopy safely, and in all flight regimes. This sport is not a one way tickent to the orthopedic ward or morgue. The manufacturers still say 1.3 is an expert wingloading, and a few hundred jumps does not make anyone an expert.

Be safe and enjoy the sport for a long time, John
29 years, 4400

[Ron 7]

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I am surprised that this has not been discussed more. I find on the DZ that since the seriously high performance canopies have become more popular that people are taking canopies like to Stiletto less seriously - I have been guilty of thinking 'well maybe' myself.

Then the brain fart passes and I realise that just because there are more dangerous canopies available now, the Stilletto has not got any less dangerous for someone of my experience.

But it appears that some people think it has...

Very good point.

The laws of physics have not changed since the Stiletto was introduced over 10 years ago. It is just the simple fact that even more advanced canopies have been introduced that make the Stiletto SEEM less HP....A 1986 Porshe 911 is still a HP car. Even if a 2004 Ferrari is faster...I don't want a teenager driving either.

Like I siad good point.

Another is simply this...The PROS jump Velocities...They do 1,000 jumps a year. MOST people don't need that kind of performance...They just want it.

But a simple fact is if you only do 100-200 jumps a year, you are not current enough to be jumping the cutting edge of gear.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 1,646]

I weighed 145 when I made my first jump at age 52. It was on a Sabre190. I did 3 jumps on that and downsized to a Sabre170. I did about 7 or 8 on that and downsized to a Sabre150, on which I finished my training at Skydive Chicago.

I s'pose I should mention that I was (and still am) a licensed glider pilot, which IMO made learning canopy flying pretty easy.

I bought a Stiletto150 at 39 jumps. Still jumping it (1400 jumps and I weigh 155 now). I have jumped a Stiletto135 and Safire129, but stayed with my 150 'cos I couldn't see the need to change.

One thing I took from John LeBlanc's seminar last week was that light jumpers generally get into trouble with the responsiveness of their canopy if it's too small, whereas heavy jumpers usually get into trouble with the speed of the canopy if it's too small.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 7]

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I s'pose I should mention that I was (and still am) a licensed glider pilot, which IMO made learning canopy flying pretty easy.

Plus what other pilot ratings? And how long have you been involved with aviation? Oh yeah what do you do for a living?

You are NOT the typical student John.

BTW when are you comming down and are you bringing any RC stuff?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[sunshine 2]

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i cant beleive your saying stand up landing isnt a apprpriate gauge to flying your canopy. its completly relevant!
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No not really.

Thanks for your comment ron.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[DeNReN 0]

Tattoojeff you misread.

I was quoting chasingbluesky...hence the "quotations"......sry next time I'll use the

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[billvon 2,426]

>We dont have the option of renting/demo'ing many different sized
> canopies here.......its usually ask/beg to borrow gear to downsize
> into the "sport" canopy thing(I really hate to borrow others shit).

PD has a great demo program that lets you put a bunch of jumps on a canopy, usually over 2 weeks or so.

>..is that it seems perfectly acceptible for a AFF student to jump a
>1:1 loaded canopy on there 1st/2nd/3rd jump...but for me to
>downsize to a 1:1 is not aceptable

It's all in your training. An AFF student that quickly progresses to a 1:1 Sabre gets a _lot_ of training on how to fly it, and he never learns the bad habits that a Manta student learns. Once he graduates he has a good background of experience to keep jumping that Sabre 170, and then progress to say a Sabre2 170 once he's maxed out that Sabre 1. A student that has jumped only Mantas does not have that training (the training is very different for a Manta and a 1:1 ZP canopy) and has picked up a lot of bad habits from jumping the larger canopy.

[kallend 1,646]

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I s'pose I should mention that I was (and still am) a licensed glider pilot, which IMO made learning canopy flying pretty easy.

Plus what other pilot ratings? And how long have you been involved with aviation? Oh yeah what do you do for a living?

You are NOT the typical student John.

BTW when are you comming down and are you bringing any RC stuff?

Coming to ZHills for Guy's 140 ways in 2 weeks. I'll prolly put my flying wing in the car, since it's small.

I guess I'll re-emphasize what John leBlanc said and add my own spin. Light jumpers trend to get in trouble with canopy responsiveness rather than speed. Heavy jumpers tend to get in trouble with speed, rather than responsiveness. This is because the laws of physics don't scale.

Is it possible that a 220lb instructor can't relate to the issues faced by a 105lb novice, and vice versa, because they have no personal experience of those issues?

One-size-fits-all instruction may be exactly the wrong way to go here, given that small people face a different set of issues than big people.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 7]

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Coming to ZHills for Guy's 140 ways in 2 weeks. I'll prolly put my flying wing in the car, since it's small

Or bring a chopper BTW I will want to pick your brain about them when you come down.

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Is it possible that a 220lb instructor can't relate to the issues faced by a 105lb novice, and vice versa, because they have no personal experience of those issues?

One-size-fits-all instruction may be exactly the wrong way to go here, given that small people face a different set of issues than big people.

I agree, but all I want to see is a basic regulation to make people get training...But that lets them progress (slower) without training if they can't afford/can't find that training. It would also let them progrss faster if they were really that good.

I compare it to flying...A Private pilot needs a taildragger, complex and HP endorsement to fly those types of planes. I htink we should have a HP canopy endorsement. It fits and would help. The only way to make that happen is if the USPA makes it a BSR.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[relyon 0]

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I guess I'll re-emphasize what John leBlanc said and add my own spin. Light jumpers trend to get in trouble with canopy responsiveness rather than speed. Heavy jumpers tend to get in trouble with speed, rather than responsiveness. This is because the laws of physics don't scale.

Being an R/C modeler, I'm sure you'll appreciate this article about scale effects. It's written with a modeling slant but can be applied to parachutes as well.

Bob (full size and R/C helicopters)

[Praetorian 1]

“A few places, like SDC, start students out on smaller canopies; a good wing loading for those students would be the smallest canopy they were trained on.” billvon
I love reading quotes like this 1 it makes me feel good about my choice of training program/dropzone I considered taking AFF at a smaller dropzone cuz it was less expensive then AFP at SDC, and 2 this is exactly how I choose my first main

“It's all in your training. An AFF student that quickly progresses to a 1:1 Sabre gets a _lot_ of training on how to fly it, and he never learns the bad habits that a Manta student learns. Once he graduates he has a good background of experience to keep jumping that Sabre 170, and then progress to say a Sabre2 170 once he's maxed out that Sabre 1. A student that has jumped only Mantas does not have that training (the training is very different for a Manta and a 1:1 ZP canopy) and has picked up a lot of bad habits from jumping the larger canopy.” billvon

I've gotta comment on this one, not to knock where I started but when I frist jumped it was under a manta 288, 9 jumps into staticline training I had to stop (money/time) then I came (almost 2 years later) to SDC, my first jump there was under a Sabre2 210 and it was the smoothist landing I'd had, better then all 9 landings under the manta .. was it the main? was it the coaching? (I think both)

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[pilotdave 0]

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I've gotta comment on this one, not to knock where I started but when I frist jumped it was under a manta 288, 9 jumps into staticline training I had to stop (money/time) then I came (almost 2 years later) to SDC, my first jump there was under a Sabre2 210 and it was the smoothist landing I'd had, better then all 9 landings under the manta .. was it the main? was it the coaching? (I think both)

After maybe 120 jumps on F111 canopies (almost all PD 9 cells), my landings are consistently better on my Sabre2 135 and have been better since jump #1 on it. It may be a lot faster than my old PD150, but it's MUCH easier to land. I can definitely understand why they'd make great student canopies, along with proper training, at light loadings.

Dave

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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>We dont have the option of renting/demo'ing many different sized
> canopies here.......its usually ask/beg to borrow gear to downsize
> into the "sport" canopy thing(I really hate to borrow others shit).

PD has a great demo program that lets you put a bunch of jumps on a canopy, usually over 2 weeks or so.
reply]

Actually PD has stopped shipping demos to Canada due to border problems.

Once again we see that solutions that work at SDC or Deland or Perris are simply not available in less densely populated parts of the continent.
DeNReN, when Billvon says something is unsafe he means it is less safe than something else. Sitting on the ground is safe; all else is less so. I don't know where you jump but both Nova Scotia DZs have been training jumpers for more than a dozen years with good safety records. The fact that your DZ doesn't have transition rigs available doesn't mean you cannot ever step down. It does mean it will be more dangerous. That's life at a cessna DZ.
One thing to think about: the sooner you do transition, the sooner you can jump with a square reserve. Do not let anyone sell you a rig with a round reserve!
Perhaps a road trip to Lebanon ME is indicated.

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[tattoojeff 0]

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Post: Tattoojeff you misread.

I was quoting chasingbluesky...hence the "quotations"......sry next time I'll use the



my bad, blue skies

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[GreenLight 5]

It's not the size of the canopy that counts... It's what you do with it...

Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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I s'pose I should mention that I was (and still am) a licensed glider pilot, which IMO made learning canopy flying pretty easy.

Plus what other pilot ratings? And how long have you been involved with aviation? Oh yeah what do you do for a living?

You are NOT the typical student John.

And what about the rest of us? John is only one of many students that have gone thru the program and taken a similar route - there are quite a few people on this forum that are the same way. Personally I was under a Stiletto before I hit 100 jumps. Was it blind luck or skill that prevented me from killing myself under it? (And looking back, I would have been able to do BillVons checklist). Maybe there is something to be said for the amount of training that we get, as well as learning how to "feel" how a modern canopy flies right from the start. Wasn't this the same reasons we stop teaching students with SOS and moved to BOC?

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....