Taking seatbelts off after takeoff

[vonSanta 0]

Yup Ian, in some countries there aren't very many jump planes with seatbelts. In Denmark we jump Cessna's, except at boogies, and none of the three I've jumped from has had seatbelts (a 182, a 206 and a Caravan).

Only plane I've jumped from that has had any kind of seatbelt-esque thing installed was an AN-28 - and it was more of a thing you clicked on to your harness than a seatbelt.

If I was adament about only jumping from planes where seatbelts are installed, I wouldn't get more than perhaps 10 jumps a year. I can make a request, but if it isn't heeded, my only choice is to make a risk vs reward judgement.

Only jumping planes with seatbelts will severly limit your jump numbers in some countries. Of course, having a plane crash and not wearing a seatbelt will do that even more.

A rock and a hard place.

Santa Von GrossenArsch
I only come in one flavour
ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst

[BPO 0]

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Also, in the cypres vein...

Remember that it doesn't arm until 1500', so don't rely on that.


Not that I'm say you would or anything...

Im pretty sure its 1000' that it arms itself at at 750' that it fires.

Read the usermanual at http://www.cypres-usa.com/english_users.pdf .

It states:
A Student or Expert CYPRES will not work if the aircraft is exited before it reaches
1500 feet (450m) above the height at which the jumper intends to land. In case of a
Tandem CYPRES 3000 feet (900m) has to be reached. Once the aircraft has climbed
through that altitude and CYPRES has become fully operational it will work for any
exit height.

[Squeak 17]

A cessna without seat belts here in Oz would be grounded if the Area safety dude found out

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[tombuch 0]

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If I was adament about only jumping from planes where seatbelts are installed, I wouldn't get more than perhaps 10 jumps a year. I can make a request, but if it isn't heeded, my only choice is to make a risk vs reward judgement.

Seatbelts don't cost much. If you are jumping from a Cessna it only takes four belts. If the DZO is so resistant to the cost factor then take up a collection among the other experienced jumpers, or add a few dollars to the cost of a tandem, do whatever it takes to generate the funds to get those belts.

You do have options. It is your life. Be creative in finding ways to keep yourself (and your friends) safe.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[kallend 1,672]

In addition to unsecured people, I believe the Perris crash had unsecured helmets or cameras that did some damage too.

I like to see helmets worn for takeoff.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"I like to see helmets worn for takeoff."

I prefer the term 'secured', this means that camera people fasten their helmets onto their chest strap or seat belt. The oft heard excuse for not wearing camera helmets on take off is that there is no room, especially on smaller planes or those with low headroom.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[AndyMan 7]

I have absolutely no doubt that if jumpers ask for it, the DZO will provide it. Not because he has to, or because the gov't says he should... but because his customers are asking for it.

Being a DZO is living the life of curstomer service. Installing seatbelts is relatively easy and innexpensive. If his customers want it, he'll do it. If not, I wonder what other basics of customer service he hasn't learned.

I suspect whats going on here is that nobody's bothered to ask for it. I suspect people will think they're being wussy for speaking up.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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I suspect whats going on here is that nobody's bothered to ask for it. I suspect people will think they're being wussy for speaking up.

No offense andy but you really have no idea what's going on there. If anything it's because they either
a) Don't care - I'm going with this one
b) Don't know any better.

We had plenty of jumpers come back from the states, not one of them cared if there was a seatbelt.

It's what you're used to I guess.

Blue ones,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[sunshine 2]

I kinda like having seatbelts mandatory for jump planes here in the US. Thats all i've ever known and i would not jump a plane in the US that didn't have seat belts.

But if i was in another country that didn't require seatbelts and the plane had no seat belts, i can honestly say i'd still jump there. Yeah, it's an added risk, but i would go with the flow. It actually kinda annoys me that some US jumpers are telling you how it should be in your country. I highly doubt the DZO would install seat belts just cause you asked him to.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[PhreeZone 15]

A few jumpers at a DZ want a swoop pond, should the DZO instant go and put one in to live your customer service model?

Installing seatbelts is not too costly, if the plane is ready for them. If you have to mount the recieving hardware and everything else the cost can slowly add up. It might be a cost/benifit analysis the DZ has done and decided the benifit just is not there and the money would be better spent on that major engine overhaul coming up...

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[riggerrob 561]

At my DZ, in 40 years there's been more people killed in plane crashes than skydiving incidents. When you fly big planes, it doesn't take a lot of incidents to kill a lot of people. In our case, it was one crash of a twin beech. People weren't wearing seatbelts then, either.

When the Otter crashed at Perris, the coroner reported that more people were killed by other people than by the crash itself. Think about that next time the guy beside you doesn't put his on.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Several people in the front of the cabin smothered when Perris rescuers were slow lifting wounded off of them. Remember that all the first aid manuals say to lift wounded slowly.

On another issue, historically, airplane engines are most likely to quit at the first power reduction after take-off, usually at 800-1,000 feet. Common sense says keep your seatbelt on until you hear the engines running smoothly for 30 seconds after the first power reduction.

[bbarnhouse 0]

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In addition to unsecured people, I believe the Perris crash had unsecured helmets or cameras that did some damage too.

I like to see helmets worn for takeoff.

Good point kallend and strapping hemets in or on is standard procedure here, yet when guests are asked to do one or the other, one would think that we were asking for waaaaaay too much. As for me...I certainly don't want someone's helmet bashing me in the face.

[billvon 2,464]

>What drives me nuts is when people open the door before our seatbelts are off.

A good point, one that many people overlook. Imagine a premature deployment while you were still wearing your seatbelt.

[billvon 2,464]

>Wow, I won't ride in an A/C without seatbelts, and if you are the type
> who refuses to use seatbelts and see me on an A/C, please let me
> know, so I can scratch from the load.

Avoid the World Team then! The Thai Air Force C-130's didn't have seatbelts. It's certainly an additional risk, but when you consider the Thai Air Force's safety record it's a small one.

[diablopilot 2]

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What drives me nuts is when people open the door before our seatbelts are off. If that door is open, I definitely don't want my seatbelt on.

There is more to this point.

1) With the door open the aircraft flys differently. Ask a jump pilot what altitiude they consider it safe to have an open door if they loose power on one engine for a twin, or completely on a single.

2) When someone is belted in and the door is open what is going to happen if their pilot chute is disloged, or one of their containers open?

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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2) When someone is belted in and the door is open what is going to happen if their pilot chute is disloged, or one of their containers open?

Hell yeah. I was in Sebastian not too long ago and a well *cough*respected*cough* organizer whipped the door open @ 1000 feet without even checking if the people around him or nearby the door had their belts off.

Needless to say I was unimpressed.

Everyones always trying to kill ya

Blue ones,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[redramdriver 0]

I am probably wrong here, but, even if you were to exit at 1000', don't depend on your CYPRES to fire at 750'. I do beleive you still would need to be going towards the earth at a relatively faster speed then what a 250' vertical drop is going to acheive. Could be wrong, but I'm not gonna depend on it. If you are going for the silver, just pull the damm silver!

So, you bring your beer?

Its 5 o'clock somewhere
POPS #9344

[redramdriver 0]

We do at SPA. You either have it securly on your head, or secured to your chest strap. Not much room for everyone to just strap them onto a chest strap and get nice and comfy...but whatever works best...but no loose equipment!

So, you bring your beer?

Its 5 o'clock somewhere
POPS #9344

[Hazarrd 1]

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I am probably wrong here, but, even if you were to exit at 1000', don't depend on your CYPRES to fire at 750'. I do beleive you still would need to be going towards the earth at a relatively faster speed then what a 250' vertical drop is going to acheive. Could be wrong, but I'm not gonna depend on it. If you are going for the silver, just pull the damm silver!

I dont think anyone was saying to depend on the Cypres. We were more concerned with the Cypres firing in the event you went out on your main.

.-.

[AndyMan 7]

Every DZ in Canada that I've been to has them because jumpers asked for it. Jumpers expect it.

Have you asked for it? If you did and he said no, did you offer to pay for the retrofit with a group of friends? I would.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Have you asked for it? If you did and he said no, did you offer to pay for the retrofit with a group of friends? I would.

You would because that's all you know (Having them I mean). As Billvon pointed out even the last rw record had no seatbelts. The fact that you want them so bad is 100% ok with me (I live in the states now so I have them on every load - but when I went home I didn't and it didn't make me uncomforatble in the least). Just realize that it's not like that everywhere, nor do they care about it as much as you apparently do.

On a side note, I'm sure Tonto would be happy to take a check from you to retrofit all the planes he jumps out of in SA
Blue ones,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[AndyMan 7]

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You would because that's all you know (Having them I mean).

No. I would because I know that DZ planes crash with an alarming frequency, and that at my DZ, more people have died in one plane crash than 40 years of skydiving accidents.

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As Billvon pointed out even the last rw record had no seatbelts.

If I ever find myself flying in an airforce plane, I probably won't object to the lack of seatbelts. A C-130 is a whole lot different than a normal jump plane.

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Just realize that it's not like that everywhere, nor do they care about it as much as you apparently do.

That's clearly the case. I just don't understand why. Do planes not crash in South Africa? You don't have to travel very far here at all to find people who've lost good friends in plane accidents...

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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No. I would because I know that DZ planes crash with an alarming frequency, and that at my DZ, more people have died in one plane crash than 40 years of skydiving accidents

Were they wearing seatbelts?

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A C-130 is a whole lot different than a normal jump plane.

I agree - but you can't assume it's maintenance is any better than a civilian plane. Militarty planes crash a lot too (in fact not a week ago a c-130's landing gear failed).

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That's clearly the case. I just don't understand why. Do planes not crash in South Africa? You don't have to travel very far here at all to find people who've lost good friends in plane accidents...

I'm sure they do. I just don't know of any jump planes that went down (Tonto is better equipped to answer this). I do know of at least one incident (there more I know) almost everyone died in the plane and were wearing belts in the US (the belts were not a contributing factor in any way to the incident, not trying to imply otherwise).

Please, don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating not having seatbelts, but don't let them lull you into a false sense of security either. Most jump planes I've been on have seatbelts to the floor while you're sitting on a bench. That's a reasonably long strap to build up momentum and do a human fly swatter trick and still kill you. What I do think seatbelts are GREAT for - it preventing flying dangerous debris (including people) in the event of a crash. If the crash is severe enough, no seatbelt is going to help you (I know you realize this).

Let's just be happy we have seatbelts here If other countries jumpers want seatbelts, lets let them make that decision.

Blue ones,
ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Lets get one thing straight. Seat belt installation and use are mandated in all aircraft by Canadian law (CARS). If the jumpship you are using does not have seatbelts installed it is because the Transport Canada inspector doesn't see the point and thus doesn't care. Have you checked under the cushions? You might be surprised. In Chilliwack the C-182 with the wingtip extensions has weight and balance allowance for six (five jumpers) but is not allowed to utilize this because they do not have an Special Type Certificate for the sixth seatbelt location. Like most government inspectors, TC inspectors tend to interpret the rules differently from region to region.
As far as the use of seatbelts in Canada goes, I have heard from an Ottawa based official that the only acceptable use is around the waist as per the manufacturers instructions (and TSO or some such approval type). Wrapping the seatbelt through the harness is strictly forbidden as the harness has not been tested in this configuration.
Use of seat belts in Canada is not very widespread for the simple reason that it has not been enforced by TC. I cannot remember there ever being a crash on takeoff in Canada since I started in 1985. I suppose if there were to be one (lets hope not any time soon) the issue would draw attention upon itself just as it did in the US after Perris.
The effectiveness of seatbelts in a Cessna is, in my opinion of very questionable value. Many jumpers still persist in the mistaken idea that leaning forward somehow changes the centre of gravity and thus are in a position for takeoff that precludes their use. When contrasted with the danger of seatbelts snaging someone on their way out the door, I tend not to like them. I especially do not like kneeling on the fast points and have been injured, and seen my students injured many times by them.

[thelem 0]

I wasn't saying that anyone should get out at 1000' and expect their cypres to fire.

I was saying, that if you are happy to let your cypres open your reserve at 750', then you should be happy to open your own reserve at 1000' going 100mph slower.