billvon 2,463 #26 October 19, 2005 >as an adult, do you believe you should be allowed to watch anything >as long as you want to? Yes. It is your decision what's too gross/disturbing/upsetting to watch and no one else's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TaylorC 0 #27 October 19, 2005 gonna have to agree with brad here that these video's are sick and have no educational value. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #28 October 19, 2005 Dude. The Nice Nerf(tm) version of skydiving is over there in "Slack Valley". The rest of us jump out of airplanes and accept the fact that stuff can happen.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tr027 0 #29 October 20, 2005 QuoteDude. The Nice Nerf(tm) version of skydiving is over there in "Slack Valley". The rest of us jump out of airplanes and accept the fact that stuff can happen. Same sentiments as jp. For alot of people the risks don't sink in until they see the consequences, so the video was appropriate. It was a good post if: - it made only just 1 more person put more thought into their safety and training. - made one more person realize they are not willing to take that serious of a risk and are in over their head."The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UDSkyJunkie 0 #30 October 20, 2005 Quotewhen I was in sheriff dept. I went to a 3 day training program. It made a lasting impact on me. We were shown actual police death videos and then discussed what caused this incident.We heard audio tapes of officers shot,and passeing away. On a similar note, how many of us were forced to watch video or see pictures of car crashes and the aftermath when they took driver's ed? Not everyone, but I was. I would have preferred not to see that, but it was educational. I've seen several skydiving videos of fatalities, though usually they cut out the final moment. Many of those I saw well before I was an "adult". All of them have taught me something, even if it's just that shit happens in this sport. I'm a safer, more informed jumper for having seen them. A tandemaster at our DZ watched the side-spin training video, which shows a few fatal tandem sidespins and how to get out of them, only a few weeks ago. It saved his and his student's life this weekend when it happend for real. The problem (in my mind) with the video that started this thread isn't whether it should be watched or if anything can be learned... it's context: this video was posted on a "wacky videos" website, as if it was supposed to be funny. It does not belong there."Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #31 October 20, 2005 QuoteOn a similar note, how many of us were forced to watch video or see pictures of car crashes and the aftermath when they took driver's ed? Not everyone, but I was. I would have preferred not to see that, but it was educational. To get an A licence in NSW, Australia, you have to attend a course. Part of that course is a video that shows a number of fatalities. Kinda brings it home to you that this is a serious sport and that it's fairly easy to kill yourself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
udder 0 #32 October 20, 2005 As a newbie to the sport much like yourself (if your profile is right) I completely disagree with what you say. Watching 11 year old brazillian kids going in may help none, but watching video of someone with 200 times as many jumps as you go in may bring it home that you are not nearly as safe as you may think you are. You use the word 'learn' alot in your post but I don't think it would be about learning at all. It would be know the consequences of your actions or inaction. It would be about accepting that you can do it all right and still die. And that people far more safety conscious and skilled than you have gone in... As a note I havn't nor do I care to see footage of death but I think it may make some people more safety conscious. But hey, im just a newbie bitch."In one way or the other, I'm a bad brother. Word to the motherf**ker." Eazy-E Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #33 October 20, 2005 I've seen it in person, didn't like it one bit. But if there is something to learn from the video, I'll watch. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflyfree 0 #34 October 20, 2005 So some people are sick fucks big deal, my problem is when my mother and dear ones see these things, imagine, my mother won't go to the DZ (when I'm home in Bolivia) to see me, because she worries too much and it's not a pleasant experience for her. At family reunions they only talk about how they saw so and so die on TV and my mother dies inside and I FEEL that and pisses me off. Felipe-- Blue Skies NO FEARS, NO LIMITS, NO MONEY... "A Subitánea et Improvísa Morte, Líbera nos, Domine." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #35 October 20, 2005 QuoteDude. The Nice Nerf(tm) version of skydiving is over there in "Slack Valley". The rest of us jump out of airplanes and accept the fact that stuff can happen. Agreed and seconded. If it were up to me, I'd show that video and a video of some nice compound fractures to first-jump students. Especially some of the ones I had who thought they were 10 feet tall, bulletproof, and didn't need to fully listen to what we had to teach. This isn't a sport for the deluded, the squeamish or the timid. Here there be dragons, but, if you can get past that, there are also riches to sate desires both subtle and large depending upon what one wants / seeks from this sport. However the reaper is always lurking. Period. Some people need that kind of wakeup call, just like Brits17. And she's one of the most level-headed, analytical people I know. If seeing something like that opened her eyes further and made her try harder in regards to her own personal safety, then it was apparently worth the view. Her admission of that fact even made me think a bit harder about safety in general. Besides, I am an adult and I hate censorship.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tr027 0 #36 October 20, 2005 Quotemy problem is when my mother and dear ones see these things, imagine, my mother won't go to the DZ (when I'm home in Bolivia) to see me, because she worries too much and it's not a pleasant experience for her. At family reunions they only talk about how they saw so and so die on TV and my mother dies inside and I FEEL that and pisses me off. Felipe Ah, yes, the dieing insideness. Yet there's none of that connected to car accidents, or lightning stikes, or train wrecks, or the multitude of more common things which you're exposed to that kill more people than skydiving. Would it make a difference if you just retort about what a great job your mother did in raising you to be such a smart, safety-concious boy? Or perhaps the solution would be to show them the "The Nice Nerf(tm) version of skydiving" where everything is bright, shiny, and smiling all the time, 24/7, even at night. "The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livenletfly 0 #37 October 20, 2005 yes ive seen them before. i dont feel theres anything wrong with watching that kind of stuff. be tasteful about what your watching. its not the time to make comments or jokes, but it doesnt make me a bad guy for having a bit of morbid curiosity. i watch them to remind myself what can happen if i screw up.ehats at risk every single time i leave an a/c or balloon. we're not baking cookies out there. going in is a fact of the sport. it happens. if it scares the hell out of us, good! it should. i dont see any reason to freak out about people seeing hookturns gone bad, someone impacting, or collisions. if you dont like that kind of stuff then obviusly dont watch them. but dont pass judgment on those who will watch umless you've never slowed down to gape at a car accident, or turn the news off when they show that kind of stuff or your being a total hypocrite. just because its about skydiving doesnt make it wrong.> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UntamedDOG 0 #38 October 20, 2005 QuoteI was very surprised to see how many thought that it was a defendable action. I enjoy being shocked. I occasionally check out sites like Ogrish.com as well as other death related websites. I don’t obsess over these videos; I just watch them when I’m bored. I love having my jaw drop in horror when I see something shocking. I guess I find the whole concept of death entertaining. If you believe in the first amendment, you should have no problem with what other people want to watch as long as it doesn’t violate any obscenity laws. Your objections are understandable because you are a skydiver. Forcing your moral code and ethical sense on to other adults however is pungent to say the least. Some say that death is the only thing that gives life meaning. To embrace ones own death is to a flee from it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
artistcalledian 0 #39 October 20, 2005 i must admit i have a look on ogrish from time to time do i get off on it? nah... its just curiosity when i'm bored________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,095 #40 October 20, 2005 In that "low-timer's" defense, they did state the nature of the video and suggested not viewing it if you thought it would be offensive. How many times have we seen the thread on the vidiot who jumped without his rig with a sub-thread asking where the video can be viewed - like there's going to be any additional learning value other than don't jump without your rig. Yet, there's been no subsequent threads chastising those requests... Is it the video that offended you or the fact that it was an 11 year old child? Would you have been so critical if it were a 35 year old here in the U.S.? In this day and age, we have more ways of videoing and there's a video of some type on virtually every dive. Do we turn them all off? Or do we put a disclaimer on there as to the content and allow those who will watch, learn from it and communicate ways to prevent future fatalities. I watched it. You know what I learned? I learned (or it was reinforced) that we shouldn't allow a minor to skydive and the USPA should move the age limit to the age of majority. I learned that Bill Booth and the other tandem manufacturers are right not to allow those less than the age of legal majority to make a tandem (imagine if the recent tandem student fatality had been a minor). I also learned the USPA is right to have AADs on student dives as part of the BSRs.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #41 October 20, 2005 If I could learn from it, yes...but I do not care to see the impact.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lowie 0 #42 October 20, 2005 I think if the impact is not shown then there is no problem. I dont think showing the impact would serve any purpose except I guess to prove it was a fatility. I vote for personal choice though but it needs to be done in a way that doesnt impact on the jumpers surviving family. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
karenmeal 0 #43 October 20, 2005 I've seen a video compilation of BASE fatalities and a few videos of skydiving fatalities. It definitely makes you think hard about what you're doing. Partially because of the video, I decided BASE wasn't for me. I react well under pressure, but not as well as I would need to for BASE. Sometimes seeing a fatality makes a person question whether they really want to be skydiving or BASE jumping. If seeing a video makes them realize that sooner, is that a good thing? -Karen "Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #44 October 20, 2005 But, didn't you already know this before watching the video? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,095 #45 October 20, 2005 QuoteBut, didn't you already know this before watching the video? I did... hence the "(or reinforced it)." You haven't read my previous threads on the subject of minors skydiving. I guess the additional point is that there are other countries that are also members of dz.com that may learn a point about skydiving minors and safety procedures (AADs) from it.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #46 October 20, 2005 You seem to be declaring yourself an authority on ethics. Allow me to play the devils advocate a second. Granted: If the family of a deceased jumper does not want the video to be seen, it should not. Granted: If you yourself do not want to see it, you should not. Aside from the above, this is still for the most part, a free world. What makes you think you can use words such as "I was very surprised to see how many thought that it was a defendable action." ? I mean "Defendable" against what? You mean Defendable against your attack,.. your belief that it is wrong vs. their belief that it is not. It may be morbid, but it is not illegal. It may be dark, but it is not up to you to decide it "totally wrong". BTW, there is an awful lot of things on the internet that are not educational. Worth noting is the impact (pun intended) that such a clip is to have on the sport, when we are constantly fighting to maintain what little awareness the public has... But also, the impact (pun intended) that it would have on up and coming jumpers. You say "No educational value"... I do declare that I know of a few jumpers that need humbling as far as the "skydiving is safe" mentality goes. I noticed there was no option in your poll for someone who votes "Yes, even if it is not educational". LOL, don't get me wrong, I am not a ghoul, but I chime in now as I see someone declaring that this is wrong... when in fact it is not. Nick p.s. I voted "Yes, but only if there is something to learn (impact)" My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catfishhunter 1 #47 October 20, 2005 In reply to no one in particular.....People seem to want to be politically correct on this board latley. Just because it is a Skydiver going in doesn't mean it is Sacred..... How many People watched the decapitation Video(the first hostage in Iraq?)? I have it on my computer. Will I ever watch it again NOPE did I watch it Twice. Yes. Why? I needed it to be REAL and I am an Adult. I have Video of an AC130 Gunship blowing people to peices. I watch that ALL THE TIME, FUNNY SHIT! Why is it funny? Cuz I saw the Decap Video. I have the Video fo the stupid fucker trying to shoot an RPG at our boys. You see the Tracers blow right through him. FUNNY SHIT. Why? See Above.. Would I watch Video of a Jumper Bouncing Yes. Why?Because it makes it REAL and I am an Adult. If you don't want to watch it fine but telling me or anyone else we shouldn't because it is Skydiver is PC Bullshit. Death is death whether from Old Age,Car Accident,Firing Squad,Diases,Flood (anyone look at the picture of the guy floating in the river New Orleans?) OR BOUNCING. No one is going to tie you to a chair and tape your eyelids open and make you watch something you don't want to. For the rest of us the First Amendment Granst US the right to watch/look/talk about WTF ever we choose. Again this was not in reply to anyone in particular Just the Facts and Our Rights as Individuals and as an American. MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tr027 0 #48 October 20, 2005 Well said. "The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #50 October 20, 2005 What is the difference from the skydiving video you are talking about and this video reminding people to wear their seat belts? IMO, the video about what can happen when you don't wear your seat belt is more graphic then the bounce video of the 11 year old child going in. Are you going to get that removed from the website too?May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
