Unexplained Hook Turns

[skipro101 0]

I am kinda freaking out about all the incidents where people are hooking in but are described as conservitive...and whom would never try to hook turn.

Right now, I have this feeling that I dont understand how a hook turn happens.

I mean.. i know...a turn too close to the ground. But too close is defined differently for different canopy and pilot.

Im taking Scott Millers canopy course fairly soon (already signed up) but untill then....

Im just kinda freaked...I mean I keep reading that these people just did a 180 to get into the pattern or even worse...a completely unexplained move..just all of a sudden hooked in...and then got F-ed up. just read the incidents forum..you dont have to look far.

So for me, hooking in feels like some ...phenonomn (sp) that is going to sneak up and bite me when I least expect it.

I always make conservitive left hand approches my 500ft downwind to base turn is slow and easy and my 300ft base to final turn is even more slow and I barely pull the toggle down...

but that sounds like most of the incident people do most of the time as well..then all of a sudden on jumpX..after many many conservitive left-hand approches, they all of a sudden hook in and die.

scared and confused.

[Ron 7]

The "conservitive" people who hook in are most times :

A. Avoiding an obstical
B. Trying to turn into the wind.

You can avoid these errors by:
A. If you are not sure you can make it to the landing area, select an alternate area by 1,000 feet or higher. Ask yourself if you will make the landing area..and if you have to think about it...put down in a sfer area that has no obsticals/

B. Learn that you can land down wind...Its not pretty, and its not fun (unless you really know what you are doing) but it is ALWAYS safer to land with your canopy level than in a turn..Even if it means hitting an object.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[speedy 0]

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ALWAYS safer to land with your canopy level than in a turn..Even if it means hitting an object.

Just wanted to add, that if you are going to hit an object, brake your canopy ( flare ) first.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[tphilpin 0]

Ditto what Ron says, with the following addition.

It is not a question of either landing into the wind or downwind. Get this out of your head before it makes a home. You can land safely in ANY DIRECTION, all 360 degrees of wind angles, as long as the canopy is level and you anticipate a PLF (most importantly feet together and knees bent). That's all you need to know.

Landing into the wind is preferable, but not necessary. LANDING WITH THE CANOPY LEVEL IS NECESSARY!! At many DZs with a landing strip of grass for a landing area, crosswind landings are the norm.

Skydivers of all experience levels get into trouble trying to land "into the wind" when they misjudge a pattern, are forced to alter their course due to another jumper or obstacle, or are forced to land off.

The choice is not into the wind or downwind. Land in any direction, canopy LEVEL, and when you get a chance, seek and instructor's guidance and practice crosswind and downwind landings with student gear.

Any direction partially into the wind will slow your approach.

Crosswind is like a no wind landing. It will neither speed your landing up or slow it down but will require that you fly with the upwind toggle lower than the other.

A downwind landing will add some portion of the wind speed to your approach (depending on the angle) but in the lower wind ranges, can still be stood up. When the wind is light, and the windsock changes direction, then any direction will work (if you all agree) and ignore the windsock.

Lastly, learn and practice flat turns whenever you are on base or final to land. That way when an alteration is necessary, you are in the flat turn mode.

Blue Skies,
Tony

[bodypilot1 0]

Ditto to all they just explained to you.
And dont be scared, just be alittle wiser than those that make the bad decisions...

Be safe.

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[skyyhi 0]

Hey guys, that was some great advice there. Because of Bills "canopy list", I have been trying a lot of these things. . .out away from traffic in a clear area. Flat turns have become almost second nature now when needing or wanting to make minor adjustments to direction on final. Thanks for even more reminders on the "be able to land your canopy in ANY wind direction". It is always good to remember that.

________________________________________
Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ
FGF #6
Darcy

[billvon 2,473]

>I always make conservitive left hand approches my 500ft downwind
> to base turn is slow and easy and my 300ft base to final turn is
> even more slow and I barely pull the toggle down...

I don't mean to scare you, but it has been my experience that people who are really conservative and only make very gentle turns below 500 feet are the ones most at risk for a low turn. The problem usually creeps up on them like this:

A woman has 300 jumps and is a very conservative flyer. She is in the pattern, setting up for a gentle turn to final. She starts it, but is watching this guy setting up for a hook turn. He starts his hook, does a 180, and turns right in front of her. She turns the only way she knows how (with a toggle), looks down, and realizes she is at 20 feet. And afterwards everyone says "but she wasn't a hook turner! Why did she hook turn?" Well, because she was low, was about to collide with someone, and only knew one way to turn.

To get around this, learn to flat turn and flare turn. Practice these until they become habit - and practice them low, like at 50-100 feet. After a while you will do them automatically, and if someone does cut you off, you'll automatically do a flat turn rather than a hook turn at 50 feet.

[JohnMitchell 14]

***Flat turns have become almost second nature now when needing or wanting to make minor adjustments to direction on final. Thanks for even more reminders on the "be able to land your canopy in ANY wind direction". It is always good to remember that.

[riggerrob 562]

Half of those hook turn injuries happen to young guys showing off.

The other half of hook turn injuries happen to people who failed to plan.
The most glaring failure to plan is failing to learn how your canopy flies. If you have not practiced all of Billvon's exercises, then you are a crater looking for a place to impact.

Other common planing errors include not being over your landing field by 1,000'. If you have to land out, you should be over the edge of an open field by 1,000.' If you are not going to make your first choice of field by 1,000', then start looking for a closer field.

Another common error is ignoring the wind sock until 50, then suddenly deciding that you HAVE to land into the wind. This shows two planing errors: first not paying attention to winds, secondly fixating on landing direction.
If you cannot handle a 4 knot crosswind, you are jumping the wrong canopy.
Like earlier posters said, having your canopy level is far more important than wind direction.

Another common planing error is ignoring other canopies, then panicking when someone else "cuts you off" at 50 feet. Fly your parachute the same way you ride a motorcycle: PARANOID. Expect others do do stupid things - that might kill you - and give them plenty of room to be stupid. You should be flying your canopy with your eyes open and your head on a swivel. If someone else is being unpredictable under canopy and hogging the bowl, then land in the far corner of the field and walk back. Far better to walk a mile than be carried (on a stretcher) a foot.

If you plan to keep your brain a mile/minute ahead of your canopy then you will prevent most accidental hook turn phenomenon from sneaking up and biting you.

[skipro101 0]

Im starting to feel better. I do practice flat turns and know 3 different methods of executing them.

Im anxious to take this canopy course...should be good stuff.

Thanks people

• Quote

[twnsnd 1]

Plan ahead and keep your eyes open and you will never have to worry about it.

-We are the Swoophaters. We have travelled back in time to hate on your swoops.-

[skyyhi 0]

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Also learn to land your canopy in different configurations, such as half brakes, quarter brakes, from in a flat turn. We're not talking tippy toe smooth landings, but non injuring ones.

I get REGULAR practice on these types of landings. . .lol!

________________________________________
Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ
FGF #6
Darcy

[amir1967 0]

Not that I know what I´m saying,but that´s what I think.
first I think it is about 40% 40% and 20% or so.
student (new) , 150 to 600 jump or so conservative pilot or not and last are the pro.
the student will do the panic turn instead of flat one.
the second group can split in two 1. the one that learn to swoop and one wrong move 3 ft too low and it´s over. and 2. conservative people that experimenting with front riser turn or toggle once a month or so and with so much extra speed compare to the standard student pattern mistake can happens and the are very expensive if you make it alive.
try to see to what group you belongs right now and to which one you would like to go .
and please if you think that you are maybe low flat turn and pararoll or take the down wind and maybe you get a dirty rig.

AM67

[airdvr 200]

Very interesting article regarding "Open Canopy Fatalities"http://www.noexcusesrigging.com/ArticlesEssays/LayOverview.htm The techinicla paper is bit more...well...technical. I haven't finished reading it yet. You can find it here http://www.noexcusesrigging.com/EssaysArticles.htm

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[airdvr 200]

Just finished reading the technical paper. Interesting but it lacks one significant area. It assumes that all jumpers who died under an open canopy were looking to increase the percieved risk factor by doing HP landings. Somewhere someone needs to separate the data to identify those who were doing a HP landing and those who weren't.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[tombuch 0]

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Very interesting article regarding "Open Canopy Fatalities"http://www.noexcusesrigging.com/ArticlesEssays/LayOverview.htm The techinicla paper is bit more...well...technical.

That's pretty interesting. I don't think it addresses the unexplained hook turn, but the concept of migration does help to explain the reduction in low pull and no pull accidents and its relationship to open parachute accidents. I imagine some folks will scream BS, but I gotta tell you that I started doing hot canopy work at about the same time I added a Cypres and cut down on my intentional low openings.

Migration...interesting

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[kelpdiver 2]

Tom, when did the more advanced canopies start coming to market?

While the notion of risk migration is clearly seem in some places (drivers with antilock brakes in particular), I wonder if the arrival of the Cypres coincided with the appearance of faster chutes. Or did raising the floor for openings create a market for more fun under canopy?

The numbers are so small it's dangerous to make conclusions, but one reason a sport can have up/down spikes in deaths is that people tend to safen up a bit after an incident, but in time return to more risk taking ways.

[tombuch 0]

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Tom, when did the more advanced canopies start coming to market?

While the notion of risk migration is clearly seem in some places (drivers with antilock brakes in particular), I wonder if the arrival of the Cypres coincided with the appearance of faster chutes. Or did raising the floor for openings create a market for more fun under canopy?

I don't have the exact dates with me...the logs are all at the drop zone. I do, however, remember adding an Excalibur to an old Javelin that had my new Cypres in it. The Cypres is about 11 years old.

I don't have the data to speak directly to the national relationship relationship or migration from low openings to high speed canopy work, but I know how the X-cal effected my performance.

Back in the day I was a real bad ass about low openings. 1,000 feet was pretty common, and frequently I'd go lower. I don't remember ever loosing a low pull contest, or passing up a challenge to dump low. Yup, I was an idiot. When I got the X-cal I was having fun with the parachute, but no longer pulled low, or at least not as low or as often. Part of the issue was that the X-cal tended to blow lines at opening, and part of it was that I was just having too much fun flying the parachute to cheat myself out of canopy time. So the concept of risk migration makes sense to me. I traded low openings for canopy excitement. It was never a complete trade, I still did a low one now or then, but by and large, the advent of a high performance parachute changed my pattern of risk.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[billvon 2,473]

>Tom, when did the more advanced canopies start coming to market?

The Bluetrack was the first ZP canopy, followed by the Sabre 1 and the Monarch. I saw my first Monarch in 1991 - it was a 190, and was so dangerous that no one but the DZO was allowed to jump it. Cypreses started appearing shortly thereafter. There was a little bit of a lag since no one wanted any AAD's when the cypres first came out - they were for students only, and many people wouldn't jump with you if you had an AAD due to the risk of premature deployments.

[freeryde13 0]

well... i try to be safe and really love living pain free. at abot 30 jumps, and jumping a new canopy. i opened a bit far from the dz and was not used to the speed of my canopy. so anyways....i'm coming in for final with strong winds....13mph or so with gusts of 18..... turn left crosswind, and am real low. i really really really want to turn into the wind, but start thinking about all those low turn incidents. so i land cross wind trying to level out againstthe wind by slightly pulling my left toggle before wipping the fuck out infront of the recently landsd canopy flight class. ......BUT.....my recurency coach on the jump told me i did it all right....

but i guess that could have been one of those unexplained low turns.

_________________________________________

people see me as a challenge to their balance

[The111 1]

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Crosswind is like a no wind landing. It will neither speed your landing up or slow it down but will require that you fly with the upwind toggle lower than the other.

I'm not sure I agree with this, but maybe I misunderstand. Anyone care to comment?

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[cwn 0]

When you land cross wind the wind will be hitting the side of your canopy pushing it towards the downwind direction. The higher the winds the more it will be pushing your canopy downwind. To stay on heading you will need to compensate by steering towards the upwind direction. Your canopy type and wing loading will also effect how much you need to compensate to stay on heading. If the wind is gusting you will need to be very careful not to inadvertently make a low turn because the wind suddenly changed. When you flare you will need to pull down the toggles the same distance from where they were. So if you have the upwind toggle half way down to your flare point to compensate for the wind then when flare you will need to pull the downwind toggle half way down and the upwind toggle to the full flare point. The more you compensate for the wind the less of a flare you will get so be ready to do a good PLF if needed.

With a Mojo280 (F-111) loaded at 0.8 in about a 15 mph wind I would probably need to hold the upwind toggle close to my full flare point in order to maintain my heading. On a Lightning 176 loaded 1.35 in a 15mph wind I would guess that I would only need to hold the upwind toggle at about the half brakes point.

[billvon 2,473]

>When you land cross wind the wind will be hitting the side of your
>canopy pushing it towards the downwind direction.

No it won't. Your canopy does not sense the crosswind.

>The higher the winds the more it will be pushing your canopy
> downwind. To stay on heading you will need to compensate by
> steering towards the upwind direction.

Again, no. A canopy landed crosswind will happily continue crosswind until you land. When you land, you will be going both forward and downwind (due to the speed of your canopy and the wind) but it will not turn in any direction, and the crosswind really doesn't matter until you put your feet down.

The reason people think this is that they want their canopy to go in a straight line _over_the_ground_ - because that's what they are used to. So they start a crosswind landing, and their canopy flies straight with respect to the wind. But if their canopy is doing 20mph and the wind is 10mph, the path the canopy flies over the ground will be offset by the wind. People perceive this as a turn ("gee, I was going straight a second ago!") and thus they turn into the wind. As long as you can pull this off, that's no problem - you can flare-turn into the wind and stop.

>So if you have the upwind toggle half way down to your flare point to
> compensate for the wind then when flare you will need to pull the
> downwind toggle half way down and the upwind toggle to the full
> flare point. The more you compensate for the wind the less of a
> flare you will get so be ready to do a good PLF if needed

You've just described a flare turn! They are good things to know, and are worth practicing. I can get almost 90 degrees of flare turn out of my canopy; that could turn a high-speed downwinder into a much more reasonable crosswinder.

[cwn 0]

Now that you explained it, it does make sence. I guess the key would be to take wind drift into account when setting up to land instead of having to turn.

Thanks

[AndyMan 7]

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Now that you explained it, it does make sence. I guess the key would be to take wind drift into account when setting up to land instead of having to turn.

Additionally, if you need to run off your landings, you need to remember that you're going to need to take the crosswind into consideration when you start running.

If you run straight ahead, the canopy will continue to be pushed downwind, and you'll get pulled over.

When landing downwind, you need to run off your landing at the same angle the canopy was flying - NOT the same angle the canopy was pointing.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.