NoRules 0 #1 November 1, 2005 I was jumping this weekend and at about 1500 feet half of my canopy collapsed. I felt myself falling and pumped the brakes and everything was fine, but it definitely made me want to get an airlock canopy. Does anyone know if they actually prevent stuff like that from happening? If it works so well, why don't they put it on more canopies? Aand, is it only high performance canopies that have one? Thanks! ~ * Life Has No Rules * ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dougiefresh 0 #2 November 1, 2005 Check out the Lotus. My buddy has one and loves it. http://www.bigairsportz.com/lotus.phpHuman beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. --Douglas Adams Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,444 #3 November 1, 2005 >Does anyone know if they actually prevent stuff like that from happening? No. They make canopies somewhat more resistant to collapse, but no design will prevent collapse in turbulent air. >If it works so well, why don't they put it on more canopies? Bulk/expense/complexity for an incremental improvement. Some people think they are worth it, some don't. You could ask the same about lots of things - why doesn't everyone use HMA lines? Or a fully articulated harness? Or an RSL? Because not everyone makes the same tradeoffs. >Aand, is it only high performance canopies that have one? Yes. The Lotus is probably the farthest from a dedicated swooping canopy that has them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #4 November 1, 2005 Out of the current 3 canopies being made with Airlocks (Vengence, Samuari, Lotus) the Lotus is most like a Sabre2/Safire2, the Vengence is a step above the Stiletto and the Sam is at or slightly above the Vengence.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #5 November 1, 2005 The best way to judge is to demo one. Give Big Air Sportz a call and ask for a demo of a Lotus. I've flown one now for two years and I think it's an excellent semi-elliptical canopy - not high performance, but opens and flies exceedingly well. I've compared to a few other canopies the same size, and I like the Lotus the best. If you have turbulent conditions a lot in your DZ, you will probably notice a difference in how they fly in turbulence. For me, it feels more "rigid" - a little more bouncy, since there's less of a shock absorption. Look up at your canopy several times while flying, and you will see that it doesn't accordian as much. I also watch a lot of canopies land at my DZ, and there are quite a few Samurai and Vengeance canopies - to me they look like they don't deflate as much in turbulence. Watch out jumping them in high wind - after you get to the ground, they don't deflate very quickly, so it's easy for the wind to grab them and pull you a bit. Grab the tail and shake them hard to deflate them quicker. Brian has a system for getting the air out quickly after safely landing them. I think that patents are one reason why you don't see more airlock canopies.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoRules 0 #6 November 1, 2005 Great- thanks everyone for your responses! I think I'll demo the Lotus... I just wish there was more time left in the season! ~ * Life Has No Rules * ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #7 November 2, 2005 Anyone here who thinks that an airlocked canopy will fly fine in something that folded a Sabre2 135 in half?"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #8 November 2, 2005 Well, I have demo Lotus 170 (I am 210 in street clothes so, the WL will be 1.35 -> 1.4 ish) in my container right now just asking to be jumped.... My normal canopy is crying in the corner looking sad without a home... T Minus 3 days until FRIDAY!!! I will let you know how it goes. I plan on doing a full altitude hop-n-pop and pulling everything I can pull to see how it does... Winter time does not yield the summer thermals as much, so I don't know if I will get to try out the airlocks in the bumps... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #9 November 2, 2005 QuoteCheck out the Lotus. My buddy has one and loves it. http://www.bigairsportz.com/lotus.php I have a Lotus, and I do love it. There is only one drawback to it that I can think of, and that is the difficulty in collapsing it to tote back to the packing hangar if there is any decent wind on the ground. But that, to me, is a small price to pay for what I perceive to be the security of a canopy that stays inflated and flying much better than non-airlocked canopies. When it's time to go elliptical, I plan to get myself another of Brian's creations. Yeah, boy! -peacefuljeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #10 November 2, 2005 I SOOOOOOOO love my Samurai.. I have not seen an endcell closure in over 300 jumps.. and I travel and fly in some squirly wind conditions... Did I mention i LUV my Samurai. I put on 100 jumps or so on a Lotus.. think Sabre2 with airlocks and a very kewl lineset and its a good place to start..they feel kind of bouncy when you go thru turbulence but that is because they are more rigid.. and the bounce I love rather than the endcells.. uh.."breathing" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JumpRu 14 #11 November 2, 2005 well, my sabre 150 folded in half on final once and it was not all that windy (less then 14 mph). With airlocked canopies (sam120 and jedei105) i feel very confident that this won't happen again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
klafollette 0 #12 November 2, 2005 I switched from a Safire-1 to a Samurai this year, and I love it. We get a good bunch of thermal activity in the summer, flying across the corn fields to the LZ grass. The difference is like driving over a bumpy road in a 1972 Delta 88 with 185,000 miles on it, vs. a Corvette. With the Safire, I'd feel all squishy and squirmy through the thermal/shear, as the canopy rock-n-rolled all over. On the Samurai, you just get a little pothole jolt for a 1/10th of a second, and that's it. Canopy keeps flying rock solid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoRules 0 #13 November 2, 2005 i can't wait to demo an airlock now... i think i'll give him a call now and just do hop and pops the next few weeks! ~ * Life Has No Rules * ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dionysus 0 #14 November 2, 2005 I love my airlocks as well. With the exception of my first canopy, Sabre 2, all the canopys I have owned have had airlocks. I have owned a Lotus, Vengeance and currently have a Samurai. However, I just ordered a non airlocked canopy so it will be interesting to compare once I have a few jumps on it. If I remember correctly there is a european canopy manufacturer that makes or is testing a canopy with a variation of Brians airlock design. I think it has two "valves" instead of one and they are set back further in the nose. Damn, I can't remember who it is though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praetorian 1 #15 November 2, 2005 I think Doug is talking about me.. and YES I do love My Lotus.. I now have more than 100 jumps on it, some in conditions that I should have not been in (no not intentionally conditions were on the safe side of the line when I got in the plane) first answers, YES I fully believe my airlocked main will maintain its shape compared to anyone flying an open cell AT THE SAME WING LOADING. solid wing or no solid wing a down draft drops you period so don't think air locks make you safe to fly in all conditions. another "qwerk" of the AIR LOCK wings rigigity is its stall recovery... my advice is try this UP HIGH. because the wing holds its shape its recovery is much quicker it starts flying agian before line tension which can be dangerous... that said you REALLY have to try to stall one I don't see it happening by accident. any detailed questions please feel free to PM me.... or Brian Germain for that matter. I've never met a more open person more honest about their product vs others in the market place. Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #16 November 2, 2005 Quote If I remember correctly there is a european canopy manufacturer that makes or is testing a canopy with a variation of Brians airlock design. I think it has two "valves" instead of one and they are set back further in the nose. Damn, I can't remember who it is though. Paratech : R.A.G.E Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #17 November 2, 2005 Quote Out of the current 3 canopies being made with Airlocks (Vengence, Samuari, Lotus) the Lotus is most like a Sabre2/Safire2, the Vengence is a step above the Stiletto and the Sam is at or slightly above the Vengenc I would only disagree with your characterisation of the Vengence. IMHO, it's a step BELOW the Stiletto. It really does suck at many things. High riser pressure, high toggle pressure, ground hungry. The Sam and the Vengence really have nothing in common, other than the obvious. IMHO, The Vengence has a lot more in common with early Jedei's than Sam's. I digress. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #18 November 2, 2005 Quote Anyone here who thinks that an airlocked canopy will fly fine in something that folded a Sabre2 135 in half? I do. Well, I guess it depends on what you mean by "fly fine", but I've not even seen either my Samurai or Jedei ever give any indication that it would ever collapse. It certainly will be affected by turbulence, and that may be dangerous - but odds are it will not collapse. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #19 November 2, 2005 I've been wondering what happened to cause her canopy to rapidly deflate? The Vengeance is a dogsled. Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoRules 0 #20 November 3, 2005 *** I imagine it was just the turbulence that day... everyone was having really bumby canopy rides with the canopy "accordian-ing"... ~ * Life Has No Rules * ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brianfry713 0 #21 November 3, 2005 QuoteQuote If I remember correctly there is a european canopy manufacturer that makes or is testing a canopy with a variation of Brians airlock design. I think it has two "valves" instead of one and they are set back further in the nose. Damn, I can't remember who it is though. Paratech : R.A.G.E More info on this canopy (Ram Air Guiding Engine) and the concept behind it. Described as a swoop machine. http://p4961.typo3server.info/43.0.htmlBASE 1224, Senior Parachute Rigger, CPL ASEL IA, AGI, IGI USPA Coach & UPT Tandem Instructor, PRO, Altimaster Field Support Representative Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jurgencamps 0 #22 November 7, 2005 500 jumps on a stiletto, 1500 jumps on a vengeance. I have to disagree. Vengeance more ground hungry, yes, higher frontriser or toggle pressure? No I prefer a vengeance over a stiletto. Jurgen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #23 November 7, 2005 > If it works so well, why don't they put it on more canopies? Bulk/expense/complexity for an incremental improvement. *** Patent infringement too from what I've been told!? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #24 November 7, 2005 That does'nt seem to stop people from using PD's patent on Crossbraces or of someone from using an unlicenced design as their own Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RevJim 0 #25 November 8, 2005 Brian's design is awsome, that's for sure! Just try and remember one little thing. If the turbulence is bad enough to make you not want to fly a non-airlocked canopy on a particular day, DO NOT JUMP AN AIRLOCK EITHER! Turbulance and rotors can fold up a Sam/Jedei/Vengence/Lotus just as easily as a Sabre or a Nova, given the right (wrong?) conditions. The airlocks are great for when you encounter unexpected turbulence. If you are looking at airlocks thinking flying them will increase the amount of conditions you can fly in, you are buying for the wrong reason. That said, you're gonna love 'em!It's your life, live it! Karma RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
