Safety concerns about Lakes Wales

[edjackson 0]

Is it customary to have the door open on take off? The issue came up today while jumping at Lake Wales. I feel that the door should be closed on take off to prevent an accidental deployment of a reserve or lost main pilot chute which could take down the airplane. One of the staff members at Florida Skydiving in Lake Wales vehemently disagreed. He even ridiculed me in the airplane for suggesting otherwise. His response was "Everything is a risk. What if you have a heart attack in freefall?" Even if leaving the door open is Ok, I do not think his actions were appropriate for a staff member who is addressing a safety concern. It may even prevent others from speaking up about future concerns for fear of ridicule. I certainly won't speak up in the future, because I will be jumping elsewhere.

[bigway 4]

were you in a small cessna?
i think his manner was shit. i was with a fellow student just after aff and i asked an instructor what the lowest he would pull his reserve at and he took the piss out of me. he said he would not tell me. i said so about a 1000ft then and he said no. when my friend jumped 2 days later he went in to a rotating mal of somesort at just over a grand. he rode it in. I feel he rode it in because of what this instructor said while my mate was packing next to me and listening to our conversation. These sort of conversations stick in your head. I feel no matter how stupid the question is that an instructor should always answer with an appropriate answer, because people listen to instructors, most people starting off trust their lives with what an instructor tells you.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[Jib 0]

It's open in Clewiston too. I'll leave it to the jump pilots but wouldn'tyou rather have the door open in the event of a crash? Besides, I'm not sure you really want to have the door closed in Florida during the summer.

--------------------------------------------------
the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[mjosparky 3]

As Bigway asked, what type of A/C was it. There are operating limits on A/C when operating with the door off, this means less performance. And you are right about an accidental deployment near the door. Did you approach the DZO or DZ Manager about the attitude of the the Staff member. You can't very well blame the DZ if they are unaware of the problem. jmo
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[edjackson 0]

I did approach other staff but did not get a better response or attitude. I did not get to speak with the owner who would have probably been more diplomatic.

[sundevil777 94]

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Is it customary to have the door open on take off?

It is common during really hot times.

I am suprised you haven't encountered that before.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[billvon 2,434]

>Is it customary to have the door open on take off?

In some places it is customary. It can be a problem because:

-if you fall out at 50 feet you're probably going to die
-if a parachute deploys and the person is wearing a seat belt - same thing and it may cause other problems that result in the plane going down at 200 feet
-if you crash you want that door closed

[billvon 2,434]

>but wouldn'tyou rather have the door open in the event of a crash?

?? Would you open all the doors of your car right before someone crashed into you? A crash is the one time the door _does_ really matter; it can retain people and prevent or retard ingress of dangerous stuff (propeller blades, rocks, burning fuel etc.) The only time I'd open the door before impact is in specific situations (like a ditching) where the landing will be relatively controlled but you will have to exit quickly. (Pilot decides this of course.)

[slug 1]

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Quote

Is it customary to have the door open on take off?

It is common during really hot times.

I am suprised you haven't encountered that before.

Hi Sundevil

Sorry but I have to agree with you.

Florida in July? Major heat! IMO leave the damn door open. What the problem? Afraid your going to fall out with you seat belt on and the door open on T.O.?
Belly wart with spring loaded PC? Don't use those anymore. A good gear check and sitting still in the airplane and covering your handles should take care of any gear problems.

Structural problem with the A.C. T.O. with door open? What added strength does a lexon door provide to airplane?

Ever see the pictures of the folks at the WFFC on in the helicopter on T.O.

DC 3 inflight door? Don't remember any

"Back in the day" Cessna's didn't have a inflight door so they just took off the std door.( Not very comfortable in a lot of parts of the country in the winter)

I've jumped at Lake wales a couple of times last time three years ago and never saw any safety problems.

R.I.P.

[sundevil777 94]

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Sorry but I have to agree with you.

I didn't know agreeing with me would be so bad!

I love takeoffs in the CASA at Skydive Greene County with the tailgate open!

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[sundevil777 94]

During the hottest times of the year, you don't take off with the door open at Perris? I think it I remember it Eloy and Perris years ago, when I was there in the Summer?

Is this practice not still common? Hasn't it been done that way for a long time.?

I guess I just see the possible extra risk as very much.

Still have to wear belts, and an order to evacuate can be done much quicker. Doors don't always open really smoothly, delays of several seconds could easily happen, so there are +/- with different scenarios.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Zenister 0]

in my experience at Eloy during the summer it is: door mostly shut with someone's foot propping it open 4-6 inches for a bit of air flow till 1000 feet when seatbelts come off.

Hot & sweaty is always a better option than cold & dead..

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[tkhayes 140]

it is more about having the 'most' fuselage and surface available in the event of an emergency, as well as all the other protective issues already mentioned in the same event.

Lose power at low altitude? The pilot does not want a huge hole in the side of the plane creating unneeded drag.

But for a light load in a good Otter, it hardly makes any difference. Fully Loaded? Close the door -

Hot in Florida in the summer? Sure it is. How many of you are wearing a dark or black jumpsuit? You still do, so close the door anyway for the first minute or so.

Could argue about it all day long I guess. Does not make much sense to me to NOT give the pilot the max advantage during takeoff.

TK

[marcin 0]

Just spoke to a pilot yesterday. He insisted that jumpers shut the door of the An-2 on take off. A bunch a accuracy gods always told him to bugger off. Until on one take off the plane hit the turbulence, bunked and one of the jumpers fell out (no belts obviously). At an alti of approx 300 feet.

Following that there was never an argument about shutting the door. And the funny thing was that folowing the jumper falling out the others commanded the pilot to stop(!) the plane..

Yeah, that fellow actually survived.

[billvon 2,434]

>During the hottest times of the year, you don't take off with the door
> open at Perris?

Nope. They're pretty serious about safety there, at least in the past 5 years or so. Having the door closed for the 90 seconds from takeoff to 1500 feet isn't all that big a deal.

[riggerrob 558]

Also consider climb rate.
Most jump doors add 100 or 200 feet per minute to the climb rate.
On a hot, humid day with a rough running engine, closing the door may improve climb rate just enough to clear the trees at the end of the runway.

[LouDiamond 1]

Having spent a little over a week at Lake Wales just recently, hot isn't the adjetive I'd use to describe the weather. That aside I understand why the door was on occasion left open on take off. I am not arguing your point about possible safety scenarios be it pro or con open door as I asked one of the locals to close the door when I first got there and they didn't even blink and promptly closed the door, no muss ,no fuss. After seeing that the open door was not an issue for the locals I accepted the practice but in all honesty I think the door was only left open on a handful of the lifts I was on. All other times the door was closed for take off.

I also found the staff at LW to be very friendly and helpful which is why I am surprised at your experience. Understanding that people have bad days sometimes I also understand that sometimes the way you present your issue can illicit a like response from the other person(s). My question to you is, were you calm in your explanation to the other Staff about your concern or were you perhaps caught in the moment and a bit upset?

My personal experience of LW was 180 from yours, as I found it to be a fantastic place to jump(except for the summer heat) with great facilities(true full service) and friendly staff/locals.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[edjackson 0]

I made my preference known when we were about to take off. The staff member in question continued to make remarks and hostile jokes all the way to altitude about "hey watch your pilot chute because it could pull you out the door." I think others on the plane who witnessed the event could verify my story. I was approached by several after the jump who agreed with closing the door and felt bad for the way I was treated. One just emailed me and said he spoke with the manager and that he felt the staff were out of line.

[slug 1]

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I made my preference known when we were about to take off. The staff member in question continued to make remarks and hostile jokes all the way to altitude about "hey watch your pilot chute because it could pull you out the door." I think others on the plane who witnessed the event could verify my story. I was approached by several after the jump who agreed with closing the door and felt bad for the way I was treated. One just emailed me and said he spoke with the manager and that he felt the staff were out of line.

Hi Ed

As you describe it, the staff was definatly out of line rude and crude. But imo slaming the DZ as being "unsafe" in a public forum was also a little excesive.

Payback is hell

R.I.P.

[Chrisky 0]

My personal experience of Lake Wales Skydiving Center as of early this year was it being a professional DZ with very friendly and professional staff and locals.

The only issue i see with leaving the door of the otter open is the drag issue. You should always get a good gear check and wear your seatbelt, then there's no issue if the pilot is alright with leaving the door open.
Sounds to me like the staff member in question had a bad day. Personally, i would have tried to get a four-eye talk with him/her about that before i would have approached other staff members and/or the DZO.

Unless i did that i would not go out and bash a DZ in public as i'm only voicing personal opinion.

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[Push 0]

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if you crash you want that door closed

What about structural damage to an Otter that wedges the door closed after a crash? There is a jumper at the DZ I jump at who has witnessed, and helped in the rescue efforts of, an Otter crash with a closed door where the door got stuck because the fuselage was bent. He says it took them a good 2 minutes to get that door open, the interior was full of fuel and one of the engines was on fire. He said he was afraid for his life, and he wasn't even inside the airplane.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[Squeak 17]

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in my experience at Eloy during the summer it is: door mostly shut with someone's foot propping it open 4-6 inches for a bit of air flow till 1000 feet when seatbelts come off.

Hot & sweaty is always a better option than cold & dead..

That's how we do it here, door closed for the 1st 1000' then when dyyters blare seatbels come off so too helmets, door goes up on request ussually

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[billvon 2,434]

>What about structural damage to an Otter that wedges the door
>closed after a crash?

Might indeed be a factor, but leaving the door open for that reason seems to me like not wearing a seatbelt so rescue personnel can free you from a crash more easily - removing a small risk in favor of adding a bigger one.

[MarkM 0]

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It's open in Clewiston too.

Seen it open at SOBE once too. It was kind of unusual for that DZ, but the view was good, Olav was working the door and I sure as hell wasn't going to say anything about it to him.

I figured most DZs kept the door closed so the pilot didn't have any extra drag on takeoff.

[mjosparky 3]

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>What about structural damage to an Otter that wedges the door
>closed after a crash?

Might indeed be a factor, but leaving the door open for that reason seems to me like not wearing a seatbelt so rescue personnel can free you from a crash more easily - removing a small risk in favor of adding a bigger one.

As a pilot, I was trained to crack open the doors on any off AP landing.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals