50 bucks a jump for coahcing?

[bigairnut 0]

Ron, again I will try to clarify. I am not talking about choosing skydiving over braces, college, whatever. I am talking about the cost of skydiving relative to other leisure pursuits. For most of us who are not independently wealthy, income is a finite resource and therefore priorities must be set. I am simply saying that, all else being equal, I know of nobody who quits due solely to cost. If jump tickets went to $50 per, it might be a different story.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I am not discounting what the AFF guy does. In fact I commented that there was time outside of the jump that was valuable. (please re-read my post). What I am talking about is the coach jumps! Robin Heid is saying the 50 dollar coach jumps are killing the sport. Many are paying it so if they are paying that then they can pay more for the pilot. That is what I'm saying.

I don't understand the linkage, DD. Because DZs charge a hefty amount (mine were $104 with gear) for mandatory coach jumps and people pay it, we should increase the price even more to give the pilots a pay hike?

Does your workload change at all if the KA load replaces one fun 4 way with 2 coach jumps?

You may deserve a bigger piece of the pie, but it has nothing to do with the extortion, I mean price, of coached jumps.

[Ron 7]

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Ron, again I will try to clarify. I am not talking about choosing skydiving over braces, college, whatever. I am talking about the cost of skydiving relative to other leisure pursuits

OK but in one of those threads a guy said a motorcycle was cheaper. Thats choosing one sport over another. I quit flying so I could jump more. I know people who have quit jumping to fly more. Economics and finite resources state that you can't so it all. And when things get more expensive people look for other things to do.

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I am simply saying that, all else being equal, I know of nobody who quits due solely to cost. If jump tickets went to $50 per, it might be a different story.

But I do know people who have quit due to cost. Just because you don't know anyone does not make it not true.

And what would your personal limit be? You said you could understand 50 bucks a jump....What about 40? 30? 25?

When I started a lift ticket was 15.00-16.00 to 14 grand. You could jump a Cessna for 6.00-10.00.

People come into this sport and then life gets a hold of them. They have a job, family, and a certain amount of "mad money". As costs rise they look for other ways to entertain themselves.

You know anyone who bought a smaller car due to gas prices?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[NickDG 23]

We're doomed . . .

If this is a microcosm of what we are - How can you argue pie slices when no freaking pie is being served up . . . ?
We aren't greedy. We just want a "little more" and the understanding among all Instructors and Pilots from coast to coast that all the brothers and sisters work and get treated fairly– or none of the brothers and sisters work. Once we do that – fixing everything else will be easy. And think of the "convention" we could have once a year.

There's no reason a steady and reasonably experienced AFF Instructor or Pilot should not make at least 30K over the first few years. DZOs should be made to invest in the most important thing to the sport overall– and that's their staff. Pilots and Instructors at 15 years of service should be getting 40K or more. If the DZO can't pony up than get out of the way for some businessperson or group that can.

Drop zones should be run like Baseball clubs – there's the front office that shuffles the papers and signs the checks – and there's (us) the guys down on the field playing the game. It's two out in the bottom of the ninth – what do you want to do?

NickD BASE 194

[airtwardo 6]

I am familiar with the accident in question even though it happened prior to my entry into the sport. That does not change my opinion that I have very little concern about the pilots that fly the planes from which I choose to jump.
***

I am glad to hear that, And I really hope you can continue to make that claim over the next 10-20 years.

Good to have you back!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[AggieDave 6]

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Because DZs charge a hefty amount (mine were $104 with gear) for mandatory coach jumps and people pay it

That's $30 more then my DZ charges. Holy cow, maybe we should raise our rates so our coaches can actually get paid more then $10 a jump. Especially when they're spending so much time with the students, averaging 30 minutes per student per jump of training (some jumps/students more, up to about an hour, some less).

A load of jumpers in a S. Otter takes 3/10ths time, give or take, right? So $15 a load at 3/10ths means that the pilots are being paid roughly $45 an hour? Sure, they don't always fly 3 loads an hour, instructors and coaches don't always have students either.

You know $45 an hour is a significant amount of mony more per hour then I get paid at my "real job." My real job is honest-to-god hard work and last time I checked, quite a bit more dangerous with many more people relying on me for their safety then a jump pilot.

I don't believe that jump pilots aren't important, my life is owed to one that reacted correctly during an engine out on take off with 4 jumpers in the 182. However, in an industry where everyone is severely underpaid for what their job is worth, one fraction of the industry isn't more important than the other. If the industry and economy could support it, all the instructors, pilots and riggers should make much more money.

The thing is, the industry won't support it. So all of the whining and moaning won't do a bit of good, unless you count countless instructors and other industry professionals that understand that point and moan everytime its brought up.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[bigairnut 0]

Ok Nick, step up. If you can open up a DZ, figure out how to pay your AFFIs and Pilots $40K each while still charging prices for jump tickets that will keep the DZ humming with activity, go for it. I will gladly jump at your DZ till the cows come home and the other DZ down the street will have to either step up or go out of business. Your comment about how DZOs should be "made" to invest in their staff or get out of the way is just plain ignorant. We do not live in a socialistic society. Competition is the name of the game and the market will decide.

[GQ_jumper 4]

There are coaches that will jump for free. There are also coaches that I'd be happy to pay $50 a jump for (and have.)

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There are also plenty of d license jumpers in the sport who are more than happy to go up with students and do 2 ways with them to help them. A guy with a positive attitude will do more for a student than some coach who thinks they know everything because they have a rating.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

• Quote

[bigairnut 0]

Airtwardo, thanks, glad to be back. And I too hope that I still trust my pilots 10 years from now. I just checked your bio and notice you're from Houston. Do you know Chuck Akers? I did several of my AFF jumps with him and we were good friends till we lost touch after I moved to FL. Did you ever jump at Skydive USA in Wharton?

[slug 1]

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Key being " whose priority is skydiving". Thats not everyone. Ask why people quit. The top three will be:

1. Injury
2. Friend got hurt.
3. Money/Time.

[Eule 0]

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I don't think jump pilots know how much money is exchanged at a DZ.

I don't think fun-jumpers (not people who work at the DZ) know this, either. Well, they know how much is coming out of their pocket, but they don't know how many people it goes to or how much each one gets. I am not saying that a DZ should post this information up on the wall or anything like that; even publically traded companies don't have to go into that much detail on how their income, cost, and profits break down. What I am saying is that I don't think a lot of people know "how works a DZ". They know bits and pieces of the equation, but not the whole thing. Maybe if more fun-jumpers knew this, they'd understand why things are the way they are.

Obviously there is a continuum, from the club that has one 182, to a "regional" DZ that runs an Otter and a Caravan, all the way up to a "big" DZ that has three Otters and two Caravans and a King Air and a DC-3 and a wind tunnel and a bar. But there are some common features; part of each lift ticket puts fuel in the airplane, pays the note or rent on the plane, pays the A&P to come out and preen it every so often, pays the pilot, pays some of the lease and light bill for the hanger, and at a commercial DZ, puts a little money in the owner's pocket. That's just for a fun jump; something like a tandem or AFF costs the jumper more, but more of that money goes back out to the instructor, upkeep of the gear, etc. The DZO would probably love to have a plane full of tandems with video on every single load, and would probably go broke with a plane full of fun jumpers on every single load - somewhere in between there is a balance.

I haven't been jumping for long, but I think Ron's point that jumping reflects the larger economy is probably true. The US stock market has basically gone nowhere for the past five years. Taking a longer view, since WWII, the US stock market went crazy, went flat, went crazy, and has now gone flat again. More specifically...

Jan 1948 - Dec 1965  462.8% in 18 years

Jan 1966 - Dec 1982    9.4% in 17 years

Jan 1983 - Dec 1999  917.1% in 17 years

Jan 2000 - Dec 2005   -0.5% in 6 years

(Source: Yahoo! Finance historical quotes for the Dow Jones Industrial Average; monthly prices from Jan 1946 to Jan 2006. I have the spreadsheet I used if anyone is interested.)

On the other hand, if you plot the USPA membership numbers (from Dan Poynter's site and the recent USPA membership survey results), they flattened out before the stock market did. From about 1992 to 1996, USPA averaged about 10.6% membership growth per year. From 1997 to 2006, the average was an 0.01% decline per year. If anyone has USPA membership numbers for earlier than 1992, I would like to see them. It might also be interesting to figure USPA membership as a fraction of the total US population - I know not all USPA members live in the US, but I would guess that a high and fairly steady share of them do.

Can I put in for my "data wonk" badge now? :)

Eule

Edited for typo

PLF does not stand for Please Land on Face.

[popsjumper 2]

Chris,
Believe me when I tell you that most, if not all, jump pilots are well-respected for what they do. You guys are my best friend up to point of stepping off out the door.

It's disheartening to see you take one example of a $50 coach jump and use it as a basis for your arguement when $50 coached jumps are WAY out of the norm...on a bell curve, that would be so far out in the extreme as to be almost statistically insignificant.

We all want more money for what we do. But there comes a point of diminishing returns...corporate layoffs comes to mind where, admitted or not, high $$$ employees get axed and low $$$ employees soon replace them in the job-function. It's Economics 101.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Reginald 0]

Well this argument is silly. Where are these $50 coached jumps? I’ve recently hired Airspeed members to coach me and paid less than $50 a jump! Unless you are misquoting someone I find it totally incredulous. $50??? Maybe if that includes the students’ lift ticket and gear rental too PLUS the coaches fee.

As for pilot pay, the only pilots I know of get something like $23 a load flying turbines. And they get to do 3 loads and hour! Must be nice making $69 an hour.

Let’s see doing AFF even if there are enough students I max out at about a jump every hour due to ground training and prep. Trust me I don’t get $66 an hour. Coaching students end up paying less, as it takes more time on the ground and hence pays less per jumps…

God bless the pilots, but I don’t exactly think they are getting screwed and "coaches" making out like bandits.

And just for the record no one gets paid from the DZO to the packers if fun jumpers or students aren’t jumping due to weather, etc. I just think your figures are bogus and hence your argument is baseless.

Personally, any work I do with students I do for the love of it. The money is not a factor in the decision. I just love seeing the light in someone’s eyes when they come down off their first jump or achieve something they never thought they could do. The reality is there is not a lot of money in skydiving for anyone. I wish there was but it is just not so. Most people on a DZ are making a conscious decision to get part of there compensation in experience.

Ron (the nicely dressed one…with the scar on his neck)

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[peregrinerose 0]

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Some DZs charge more than that...I know of at least 1 that charges $80 for a coached jump.....AND $35 for a packing class.

Just keep in mind that what the student pays and what the coach get paid are not the same thing. If the cost is $80, the coach may only be making $15.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[AndyMan 7]

We've had a few people quit because they got too frustrated freeflying, and nobody would jump with them.

These were people who were so convinced that freeflying was the cool thing to do, people who blew off anyone who tried to steer them into RW or 4way. About 25 jumps off student status, they still weren't safe, competent freeflyers, and the advanced people doing the cool shit still wouldn't jump with those. They got bored and quit showing up.

I've noticed, people who go into RW instead of freeflying seem to last longer and have more fun in the early days.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[rehmwa 2]

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Well this argument is silly.

and the truth will set you free

(the market is the market. there's no such thing as 'underpaid' or 'overpaid', just people with complaints -Ask for more money and see what happens. If a 'no' answer is not satisfactory, then be ready to move or change jobs. It's called the market.)

When the 'entire' industry is thinking they are 'underpaid' then the true value of that job to those doing it is a myth.

Lastly, pilots that think all an instructor does is get a free jump and tell the student to stick their legs out is no better than an instructor who thinks a pilot is nothing but a bus driver (which really isn't fair to belittle bus drivers either). Both have quite a bit of responsibilty and the tactic of belitlling the other to aggrandize themselves is a crappy tactic.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[propilot 0]

Post edited because some of my comments are being taken out of context.


99.9 percent of the people at my dz are awesome people, I didnt mean to offend you guys just because i have some problems with one or two of you. I meant to respond to the original question and make comments about flying skydivers in general... and nievely didnt think that anyone would make the connection to where i fly.

I didnt mean to sound like our dz has low training for pilots, instead i meant that dropzones in general have lower training than is ideal.

Its hard to post online here and get your thoughts out as you understand them in your own head.

For those of you at my dz, Just for the record our training for new pilots is above industry standard, same for our maintanence and general operating procedures.

99.9 percent of you people are awesome, are good people and great friends, I wish you the best and hope you didnt take me the wrong way.

[billvon 2,400]

>A guy with a positive attitude will do more for a student than some
>coach who thinks they know everything because they have a rating.

Right, but with two equally-experienced people, the coach is going to (in general) do a better job of coaching. I've got nothing at all against experienced D-licensed people jumping with new jumpers, but a D license does not make someone a decent coach. A coach rating is more likely to make one a decent coach.

[rehmwa 2]

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Last night, I gave my notice that I am leaving this job. It was a hard decision. I will take a financial hit while I look for another job. I will miss a few of the people here that have thanked me for a job well done.

Congratulations. I'm sure it was a hard thing to do, but stepping away from a bad situation is the adult thing to do instead of griping. Best of luck.

It is supply and demand, and that's hard, I don't want to come across as unfeeling, just as recognizing how the real world works and that if we try to force unreasonable expectations on a very crowded supply market, then we'll just make things worse instead of better.

If you leave with class and let the jumpers know why, instead of just a bitch fest, maybe they'll appreciate the next pilot in a way you deserved while there. If you leave with your middle finger in the air, they won't learn, you know.

And, I've never likely flown with you, but thanks for all the time and real effort you put in.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[NWFlyer 2]

Sorry you've had to deal with that attitude. I'd leave with a bitter taste in my mouth, too.

To the jumpers that treat you (and other jump pilots) like crap ... grow the fuck up, people.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[jlmiracle 7]

First, I don't know anywhere that will pay a coach $50. Most AFFI's don't make that on any AFF jump.

Maybe the DZ will give you a raise if you pay for the gas and upkeep on the plane.

Sorry, but I have to agree with Ron on this one.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[JohnMitchell 14]

I've been teaching Static Line FJC's for almost 30 years. The cost of the course used to be $35, and I got $10 a head for teaching. The S/L FJC now costs $150, and I still get $10 a head. Last time I went to the DZO to talk about a payraise, I was shut right down. That is now why I teach maybe once a year, just to keep the rating, maybe to give the class to a friend or coworker. One or two tandems pays a lot more than 3-4 hours in a class with 2 people. I won't work for less than $5 an hour. Yet there is always someone in the wings that will teach for that price. Oh well.

Pilots nowadays start at $27K or less a year, flying turboprop commuter planes. That's very little for how much they invest in their training. The top payscales take a long time to reach, and those are being eroded by wage concessions. A friend that flys for United was looking at a 6 figure retirement. That has been cut almost to a third, about $43K. Quite a different retirement than expected.

Sorry I don't have any easy answers. My DZ is a good one to work for. It's just that one pay band that I feel needs reworking.

[Ron 7]

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I make 100 dollars per day minimum, and any loads over 10 loads per day I make an extra 10 dollars per load. On an average saturday, we might fly 15 loads. I am expected to be there from 8AM to 10PM. That is about 10 bucks an hour.

And since the FAA considers flight time as compensation, how many hours did you get while flying jumpers? How many did you have when you got the job?

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Last night, I gave my notice that I am leaving this job. It was a hard decision.

And that is how it has been for 30+ years. People with the minimum qualifications are willing to take 100-150 dollars a day to get their hands on a Twin Turbo prop. They fly for a few years and when they get enough time they leave. And then a new guy takes their slot, gets the hours and leaves. BTW I know a few jump pilots that make quite a bit more than your 100-150 a day.

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Someone said they know of pilots who still make 200K+ per year...yea, they are old timers

Our pilots still get hired on starting for 60-70 thousand. We hire more every year. In fact there is a posting in this weeks job board. Pay starts at 71,688.

No one said your job was easy. I am a pilot as well, so I know what you do, and as a jumper the people you do it for. But bitching about they way the system works does not change the nature of the system.

You are leaving, just like Chris did, and just like others have before him. You will be replaced just like you replaced others.

Taking a soundbite like "50 bucks a coached jump" and trying to apply it to the entire industry does not work. The number of people willing to pay 50 bucks a jump for a few very skilled coaches does not mean that all jumpers are willing to pay more.

You are doing the right thing, don't like the situation, try to change it, or leave.

You like to say that the big jobs in avaiation are gone right? Well skydiving pilot has never been a big job. So, if the big guys are getting smaller and paying less, it would stand to reason that skydiver pilots would also get paid less right? Its a market driven force. I have more people willing to take a job, than I have jobs I can pay less than if I needed more people than there were people. The same thing happend in the computer field.

It is nothing personal, if I could the second person to get a raise would be lots of people. The first person who I would fight to get a raise is myself.

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when he finally becomes experianced, he will be right here where I am, ready to run away from this job. Lets hope he doesnt loose an engine on his first day.

Just like we did with you?

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And to all you jumpers who think the pay gap between pilots and instructors is ok with you, enjoy a lifetime of jumping with lowtime pilots...afterall, its what you pay for.

Again you are taking a sound bite and running with it. A very flawed theory.

And as much as you wish to undermine the importance of a skydiving instructor vs a pilot. Which do you think is safer? Pilot or skydiver?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[propilot 0]

Ron,

wtf, get some reading comprehension. I never said anything to quote "undermine the importance of a skydiving instructor"

I never said that instructors should get paid more or less. I am not attacking skydive instructor pay. I recognize how it is, and I am getting out.

In fact, I think I even said something about thsoe who talk about a market driven economy and if you dont like it leave are correct, did I not?

I posted to rant (mission accomplished, i feel better). Im not arguing with anything your saying.

[Ron 7]

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wtf, get some reading comprehension. I never said anything to quote "undermine the importance of a skydiving instructor"

Sure ya did...Try writting better. In your rant "And to all you jumpers who think the pay gap between pilots and instructors is ok with you, enjoy a lifetime of jumping with lowtime pilots...afterall, its what you pay for. "

What about low pay for instructors that have to deal with a serious situation on every jump? Somehow only the pilots job is dangerous or important? How about the Tandem Guy who's very life is at risk on every jump?

You want to leave fine...Thats how it works. You minimize everything but your own issues. Ignoring the whole scope of the the larger picture.

I notice you didn't mention how many hours you had when you got the job and how many you are leaving with. It seems to be OK when you are coming in, but then its not fair once you have been there a while...Human nature and even the Skydiving Instuctors say the SAME thing.

You went off on skydivers...OK it was a rant. But I found it funny that the low time pilots were OK when you were a low time pilot.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334