What would you have done???

[laurie 0]

There was an occurence out at Perris on Saturday (yes, I witnessed most of it and not just speculating). A visiting jumper got caught up in a dust devil that collapsed his main and put him into a violent spin, he cut away at 500ft and was under his reserve between 200-100ft. He didn't even have time to flare, luckily he all he ended up with was a broken ankle. But I wonder what I would have done??? I asked one of the Chief Instructors and he recommended that the proper thing would have been a canopy transfer but you really don't know until you're in the situation yourself...

I would like to hear what other people would have done???

[tombuch 0]

Transfer. I've watched too many people die cutting away at 500 feet or less.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[Nightingale 0]

how do you do that?

[billvon 2,476]

> how do you do that?

Get your main flying straight (if possible) pull the reserve handle, wait for line stretch, then cut away the main. It reduces opening times for the reserve.

[AggieDave 6]

Bill,

Would you recommend an attempt at a transfer for a student as well?

I would think for a reasonably complicated manuever like that, for a student some would simply teach "pull the reserve, get as much fabric out as possible."

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Rdutch 0]

If you can get your main flying straight, then wouldn't you eliminate the need for the canopy transfer?

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[towerrat 0]

***If you can get your main flying straight, then wouldn't you eliminate the need for the canopy transfer?

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I was thinking the same thing. Obviously he lived so this worked for him, but I am thinking more fabric over my head is a good thing at that point. If at any point during my reserve deployement I felt I could cut away I would, but first and foremost I would want square footage. Maybe I'm wrong?

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!

[billvon 2,476]

>Would you recommend an attempt at a transfer for a student as well?

Nope. For a student, I tell them to never cut away below 1000 feet, and if they are under a canopy that will not survivably land them at 500 feet, to just open the reserve.

[billvon 2,476]

>If you can get your main flying straight, then wouldn't you eliminate
> the need for the canopy transfer?

I've had one tandem lineover and one tension knot. On both of them I could get them to go somewhat straight by pulling on things (although I couldn't quite stop the lineover from turning) but I could not land either one. Even if you try but fail to get it going straight, you may slow the spin down, and that may make the difference between an entanglement and a clean(er) deployment.

[laurie 0]

Bill, would you say then that the canopy transfer would have been the better thing to do???

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Similar to Bill's experience, but not particularly valid in a dust devil... I've never experienced a dust devil, but it sounds difficult to avoid.
I've had a main blow up on me after a hard opening. It blew out some stitching at the nose, torn ribs etc, along with some broken lines. I could fly that rag straight with heaps of input, but I preferred not to try and land it.
That canopy now serves me well as a dust cover.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[councilman24 36]

Quote

It reduces opening times for the reserve.

Bill, Bill, Bill ....... reduces lost altitude, not time.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[larsrulz 0]

Quote

Would you recommend an attempt at a transfer for a student as well?

Of the three DZs I've jumped at, all had two handle SOS systems. I certainly wouldn't recommend a canopy transfer as it isn't possible.

Fortunately we don't have dust devils or anything like that to colapse a canopy at 500' in the midwest, so I'm not sure what I would recommend to a student.

And Dave, even if I was at a DZ that didn't have an SOS system and could potentially have something like this happen, I would NEVER train a student to pop a reserve before a cutaway. FJC should always train look red-grab red-look silver-pull red-grab silver-pull silver. EPs should go no other way. I can imagine a student at 1000' under a spinning main trying to remember which handle is supposed to be pulled when. If I was working on coach jumps with someone that had 15+ jumps and was on top of things and obviously knew what they were doing, then I might think about bringing up the concept of a canopy transfer, but probably not.

I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

[EricaH 0]

Um, we do have dust devils in the Midwest, just watch over the fields when they're plowed, you'll see them, that means they prob happen over crops too.

My question though is: In this canopy transfer, once the reserve is open, when you cut away the main, aren't you risking entangeling it w/ the reserve? If @ 500 ft, would it be better to just stick w/ a 2 out situation? or are you counting on the 2 canopies going into a side-by-side & getting a clean cut-away of the main?

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[napalmboy 0]

Quote

And Dave, even if I was at a DZ that didn't have an SOS system and could potentially have something like this happen, I would NEVER train a student to pop a reserve before a cutaway. FJC should always train look red-grab red-look silver-pull red-grab silver-pull silver.

As someone who just finished his FJC, I only know one emergency procedure: feet together, arch, look red, grab red, look silver, grab silver, pull red, pull silver, arch, check. But my FJC manual also instructs me to never cutaway below 1,000 feet, because by that point I probably don't have enough time/altitude for my reserve to open safely. Although I can see a student getting things mixed up, is one caveat to skip the "red" steps under 1,000 feet that much? Maybe I'm more serious about it than other students (I don't think I am), but I try to know what could go wrong and what to do when it does down cold so that I won't get confused if and when something does go wrong. So while I haven't even heard the words "canopy transfer" before reading this thread, I know that I'm not supposed to cutaway a main under 1,000. I don't feel all that confused by it...but I'll admit instructors would know better than I what most students can and can't handle.

Well, the door was open...

[AndyMan 7]

Canopy transfers were a lot more common when people were jumping round reserves. Round Reserves have one big advantage in that they will usually happily co-exist with a main in the event of a two-out.

Since square reserves have largely taken over, canopy transfers are pretty much relegated to the circular file, and are no longer taught as emergency procedures.

When I did my first jump course, I did have a round reserve, and the canopy transfer was part of my "bag of tricks". I would be very hesitant to ever use that particular trick under a square reserve, unless the shit was truely inches from the fan.

To answer your question, the idea is to chop the main just as the reserve is at line-stretch, but before the freebag has cleared.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[freakydiver 0]

Dust devils occur in all parts of the United States.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[Icon134 0]

Quote

Dust devils occur in all parts of the United States.

Not to mention... storms that can blow in quickly. I've seen some funky wind conditions 15 minutes before a storm was making itself known. Simply turbulant air can cause the canopy to do some strange things...

[bmcd308 0]

>>I only know one emergency procedure: feet together, arch, look red, grab red, look silver, grab silver, pull red, pull silver, arch, check. <<

And that's a pretty good one.

While there are those who have survived a very bad situation by using a canopy transfer, that is a decision you do not want to make lightly. A canopy transfer is a cool thing to try if you think you are going to die anyway, and one of the things left on your list of things to do before you die is to attempt a canopy transfer. No substitute for that threesome you've always wanted to try, but still a cool-looking stunt.

Attempting to land a two out is not a terrible thing in that situation, either. After all, if you are truly in a situation that is not survivable, what are you going to do to make it worse?

I would probably go with the procedure you have been taught, however, so that at your funeral someone can say, "At least he went in with all his handles pulled." That sounds at least as good as "He should have known that a canopy transfer carried with it a huge risk of entanglement," or "What kind of dumbass pulls his handles out of order?"

In short, the jumper described in the first post in this thread was in a very very bad situation. He was lucky - a broken ankle will heal. Look through the incidents forum for the thread "Canopy Collision Skydive Arizona" to read how an Airspeed team member could not get an inflated canopy over his head before impact after a collision deflated his main at 900 feet. My point here is that having no inflated parachute under 1000 feet is a very bad situation. There are a number of possible courses of action in this situation, but there is no single course of action guaranteed to keep you out of the hospital or the morgue.

My personal response to a very low ball of sh!t? Add more nylon to it by manipulation of the silver handle. At my funeral, they might say I pulled my reserve without cutting away and that makes me a dumbass, but they might say that I did everything I could to slow down before I hit the ground. I guess it all depends on who gives the eulogy.

Brent

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www.jumpelvis.com

[billvon 2,476]

> Bill, would you say then that the canopy transfer would have been the
> better thing to do???

I don't know - I didn't see it. If it were me, and I could get the canopy to go anything like straight, I might try it. If I were spinning, I wouldn't. I will _probably_ survive a cutaway from 400 feet, and if the alternative were certain death, I'd try it. It would also depend on the rig - there's less value in doing a canopy transfer if you have a skyhook for example.

[mattjw916 2]

My DZ's S&TA, who instructed me for ground school, said, "If you have a mal, and land without ALL of your handles pulled, you are wrong..."

Sounds like pretty good advice to me for a n00b... thinking about whether to do a transfer or not is probably not going be a good idea for less experienced jumpers. While I can totally see the reason for it, I don't know if "in the heat of battle" I would want to second-guess chopping my main first.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[lowie 0]

Quote

Quote

Dust devils occur in all parts of the United States.

Not to mention... storms that can blow in quickly. I've seen some funky wind conditions 15 minutes before a storm was making itself known. Simply turbulant air can cause the canopy to do some strange things...

And remember dust devils start at ground level - you can be 50 to 500ft up when struck.

[JohnMitchell 14]

Quote

My DZ's S&TA, who instructed me for ground school, said, "If you have a mal, and land without ALL of your handles pulled, you are wrong..."

Does he say that for a total malfunction? If so, he's wrong.

[billvon 2,476]

> Does he say that for a total malfunction? If so, he's wrong.

That's what we teach. Even for a total. Having one procedure that works for everything is easier on first jump students, and pulling the cutaway handle on a rig with good riser covers does a student no harm.

[mattjw916 2]

Yes, while we were not specifically referring to a "total mal" in the conversation I believe that is what he intended to convey, i.e. red then silver on any unrecoverable mal.

I re-read the section in the SIM regarding total mal vs. partial mal procedures and it actually has a note in there that states:

"Note: Some schools teach partial malfunction procedures as an alternative to the following procedures for when the parachute has been activated but has failed to deploy."

I guess there are arguments both ways on this one. Personally, I would love to hear any situations in which you shouldn't cutaway a total mal'd main before going to the reserve, e.g. PC-in-tow, baglocked main, ???, etc.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080