kkeenan 13 #1 August 18, 2006 The thread discussing packers and their responsibility, got me thinking - Federal Aviation Regulations require that all packers of main parachutes either hold an FAA Rigger Cert. or be supervised by a Rigger. I've met packers who feel that they know as much about packing as any rigger, and a lot of them are very knowledgable. However, rules is rules, and I wonder how many packing operations actually comply with this FAR. Or how many packers have even heard of it... Kevin K._____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #2 August 18, 2006 All "Packers", but not all packers of main parachutes. The person intending to use the main parachute on its next jump may pack it and need not be an FAA certified rigger. If the person is packing for some one else, they need to be either a FAA Certified Rigger or under the riggers supervision.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #3 August 18, 2006 QuoteThe thread discussing packers and their responsibility, got me thinking - Federal Aviation Regulations require that all packers of main parachutes either hold an FAA Rigger Cert. or be supervised by a Rigger. I've met packers who feel that they know as much about packing as any rigger, and a lot of them are very knowledgable. However, rules is rules, and I wonder how many packing operations actually comply with this FAR. Or how many packers have even heard of it... Kevin K. At the place I usually jump (Skydive Chicago) almost all the paid packers are also senior riggers, so there are always a bunch of riggers on the packing mats. I think it's opportunity more than policy, since the DZ hosts rigging courses throughout the year and has a rigger/examiner on the staff.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdfreefly 1 #4 August 18, 2006 The phrase "under the riggers supervision" is open to interpretation. I've seen DZs where it was considered to mean that a rigger had to be on the packing matt. I've also seen DZs where it was considered to mean available for questions, which meant that they just had to be on the DZ, in the air counting as "on the dz" Methane Freefly - got stink? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #5 August 18, 2006 Quote The phrase "under the riggers supervision" is open to interpretation. Seeing how supervision is refered to in two different ways in the FARs, "supervision" and "direct supervision." That would mean that supervision means there's someone there to help if needed, direct supervision would mean someone is right there watching each step and process.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2fat2fly 0 #6 August 18, 2006 When I use packers (all the time now) I look at it like I'm assisting in their packing training by jumping the rig and providing feedback. We're allowed to teach younger jumpers how to pack as part of the time honored tradition of mentoring.I am not the man. But the man knows my name...and he's worried Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #7 August 18, 2006 And the latest Part 105 says direct supervision.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chris-Ottawa 0 #8 August 18, 2006 I personally think it's shocking that so many people are willing to pay someone to stuff some nylon into a bag. It's like being a soccer star and paying someone to run around for you, then you take the credit and talk to the cameras. Does no one see a problem with this? I couldn't call myself I skydiver if I didn't pack my parachute. Good job, you can jump from planes, and that's it...COngrats. From another perspective, some instructors have multiple rigs and to save downtime they get someone to pack their rig while they go on the next PFF jump or whatever. That is fine. Basically if you have a reason other than laziness, it's ok. I know I'm going to get flak for saying this but I'll deal with that. maybe I'll go for a nice LONG bikeride tonight, but wait, I think i'll pay someone to steer and pedal for me... Yeah!"When once you have tasted flight..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #9 August 18, 2006 Quote And the latest Part 105 says direct supervision. Went and looked it up, sure enough it did. When did that wording change?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #10 August 18, 2006 QuoteThat is fine. Basically if you have a reason other than laziness, it's ok. Who cares if it is what you call laziness. In the TX 100F heat, not packing means I'm physically able to do more than just a handful of jumps in a day. I also worked very hard on the packing mat earning jump money and money to live on bofore I got ratings. After you do a few thousand packjobs, see if you still have that attitude. Some people do, some people don't, just something to think about. Your analogies are a bit off, IMO.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #11 August 18, 2006 I beleive the last update where Tandems became "non-experimental" was the rewording of the supervision phrase.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #12 August 18, 2006 As of Aug 11, 2006 part 105.3 states: Direct supervision means that a certified rigger personally observes a non-certified person packing a main parachute to the extent necessary to ensure that it is being done properly, and takes responsibility for that packing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #13 August 18, 2006 Did another update come out or is that off the web page? Just trying to keep up with the times, and since your library is getting very complete, I figure I would ask you.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #14 August 18, 2006 Please see article 11 "Who Can Pack a Main Parachute" on the S&TA section of The Ranch web site, available at: http://theblueskyranch.com/STA.php. There must be a formal relationship and agreement between the packer and supervising rigger. As part of that, the supervising rigger must provide some level of training, ongoing supervision, physical presence, and must take responsibility for the packing. .Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindercles 0 #15 August 18, 2006 QuoteAs of Aug 11, 2006 part 105.3 states: Direct supervision means that a certified rigger personally observes a non-certified person packing a main parachute to the extent necessary to ensure that it is being done properly, and takes responsibility for that packing. The phrase "to the extent necessary to ensure that it is being done properly" could be interpreted a couple of different ways. If a rigger has personally observed the same packer enough times to know that they are able to pack properly, even when unsupervised, does that constitute knowledge that it is being done properly? Of course, the rigger would still have to be willing to take responsibility for the pack job. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindercles 0 #16 August 18, 2006 That article is four years old, and from other posts in this thread it sounds like things may have recently changed. Edited to add: I'm not suggesting your info is wrong, I'm just wondering what the newest changes entail. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #17 August 18, 2006 QuoteI personally think it's shocking that so many people are willing to pay someone to stuff some nylon into a bag. It's like being a soccer star and paying someone to run around for you, then you take the credit and talk to the cameras. Does no one see a problem with this? I couldn't call myself I skydiver if I didn't pack my parachute. Good job, you can jump from planes, and that's it...COngrats. Nothing in the act of skydiving involves packing. It's more like that soccer star skipping practice. Of your 37 stated jumps, what's the highest in a day for you? I can comfortably do a 4 jump day (that is, I'm not exhausted when I go home) while packing. It's bumped to 6 when I have someone else doing most of the packs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hexadecimal 0 #18 August 18, 2006 QuoteI personally think it's shocking that so many people are willing to pay someone to stuff some nylon into a bag. It's like being a soccer star and paying someone to run around for you, then you take the credit and talk to the cameras. Does no one see a problem with this? I couldn't call myself I skydiver if I didn't pack my parachute. Good job, you can jump from planes, and that's it...COngrats. From another perspective, some instructors have multiple rigs and to save downtime they get someone to pack their rig while they go on the next PFF jump or whatever. That is fine. Basically if you have a reason other than laziness, it's ok. I know I'm going to get flak for saying this but I'll deal with that. maybe I'll go for a nice LONG bikeride tonight, but wait, I think i'll pay someone to steer and pedal for me... Yeah! Does your packer go into freefall and fly your canopy for you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #19 August 18, 2006 see here What's your take matthew? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #20 August 18, 2006 QuoteThat article is four years old, and from other posts in this thread it sounds like things may have recently changed. Edited to add: I'm not suggesting your info is wrong, I'm just wondering what the newest changes entail. I wrote that article following the rewrite of part 105. There have been no changes since then. .Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #21 August 18, 2006 I read the lines in the sub part and the deffinitions. I think the Rigger who is putting his name on it ( as far as the superviser role) needs to be present and able to watch the packing at all times, so in the same hanger I would say. The rigger I pack mains and reserves under is usually only 20 feet away and pretty much says that is what direct supervision is. It is his seal and name on the line so I will agree.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chris-Ottawa 0 #22 August 19, 2006 My point in all that is that they are doing the gruntwork. You fall, then make turns until you get to the ground. Is there any effort in that? NO! So If I apply your direct theory, Would your wife be ok with you paying her $5 to just "take care of the dishes", then eat again and repeat? That is the EXACT same thing! Sorry to be so direct, but this all comes down to laziness. I see people at the DZ who never pack as well, it all comes down to choice, but it's still laziness. I'm not saying you're a fat lazy slob, I'm just saying you're too damn lazy to clean up your own mess. I just think it's funny that you're even trying to defend yourself when you know I'm 100% correct. If you care to prove me wrong, feel free to reply with a reason why you shouldn't have to pack your own gear without it relating to laziness. What I said above says nothing to people who asually do it because they dont feel like it at a particular moment. I'm referring to the people who DO NOT pack at all. EDIT: I'm sorry to all the masses out there but I couldn't resist this one. I think it's funny you're blaming your laziness on the packers. If the packer packs you an intentional lineover or something, well I think that's wrong, but you also don't have to use a packer. Suck it up! Im getting PM's like crazy about this, it's all comical, haha."When once you have tasted flight..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freelyflyn71 0 #23 August 19, 2006 QuoteMy point in all that is that they are doing the gruntwork. You fall, then make turns until you get to the ground. Is there any effort in that? NO! So If I apply your direct theory, Would your wife be ok with you paying her $5 to just "take care of the dishes", then eat again and repeat? That is the EXACT same thing! Sorry to be so direct, but this all comes down to laziness. I see people at the DZ who never pack as well, it all comes down to choice, but it's still laziness. I'm not saying you're a fat lazy slob, I'm just saying you're too damn lazy to clean up your own mess. I just think it's funny that you're even trying to defend yourself when you know I'm 100% correct. If you care to prove me wrong, feel free to reply with a reason why you shouldn't have to pack your own gear without it relating to laziness. What I said above says nothing to people who asually do it because they dont feel like it at a particular moment. I'm referring to the people who DO NOT pack at all. EDIT: I'm sorry to all the masses out there but I couldn't resist this one. I think it's funny you're blaming your laziness on the packers. If the packer packs you an intentional lineover or something, well I think that's wrong, but you also don't have to use a packer. Suck it up! Im getting PM's like crazy about this, it's all comical, haha. I'm sure you are referring to the fun jumpers that go work on their tan between loads while a packer sweats his/her ass off packing their rig...packers are a necessity for teams and AFF/Tandem instructors doing back to back loads and de-briefing their students in between jumps. I've been guilty of using packers to grab a break between jumps, but I was mainly trying to help out the packers by giving them some work on slow weekends. You always get the kid that walks around the hangar asking if you need a pack job...I'm a sucker for helping them out. The Braver the Bird...The Fatter the Cat. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sartre 0 #24 August 19, 2006 QuoteYou fall, then make turns until you get to the ground. Is there any effort in that? NO! Well dang, why doesn't everybody skydive then? And why is it considered so dangerous? And what's with all the pasky training we have to go through? Quotewhen you know I'm 100% correct. Are you kidding? You really believe 100% that there is no other reason than laziness that the average jumper uses a packer? You're funny! ~By the way, I hope you never plan on supplementing your income by packing, now that you've alienated 90% of your customer base. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #25 August 19, 2006 Quote Nothing in the act of skydiving involves packing. It's more like that soccer star skipping practice. More like the soccer star not blowing up the balls and mowing the field. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
