Do you jump with an AAD? (turned on)

[piisfish 136]

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piisfish - Is there any reason why you don't use the ability to adjust your Cypres for different take-off and landing altitudes?

yes, when the difference in altitude exceeds Cypres adjustment boundaries... Otherwise I usually do the adjustment.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[AshDeBash 0]

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piisfish - Is there any reason why you don't use the ability to adjust your Cypres for different take-off and landing altitudes?

yes, when the difference in altitude exceeds Cypres adjustment boundaries... Otherwise I usually do the adjustment.

Thanks for clarifying. You must jump in much more interesting terrain than I'm used to!

[piisfish 136]

we sometimes have 2000m/6500ft difference...

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Tonto 1]

I voted 10% or less.

I started jumping in South Africa in 1985. My 6th jump was my 1st freefall, and there was no AAD on that rig. In the words of my JM just before exit "Remember, there is no hurry. You have the rest of your life to pull."

About 9 years later, I was "gifted" an AAD by a satisfied former student of mine. When I sent it back to Cypres for it's 4 year check it was gone for 6 months. When it returned, it never worked properly. Sometimes it would turn on, sometimes not. This resulted in many, many meaningless reserve packjobs. One of the theories from Cypres was that the unit was under "physical pressure" and so I sold my Tempo 150 and put a Tempo 120 in. This never solved the problem.
2 years later the mandatory battery change solved the problem. The unit had spent the past 2 years with a "faulty" battery. Needless to say when the 8 year check came up I never sent it off to the people who had built it, and disabled it for 2 years. The unit remained in my rig until it reached it's 12 year expiry date, and was then removed and not replaced. All in all, my "free" Cypres cost me a great deal of bother and provided me with no peace of mind.

I own 2 rigs. A Mirage G4 - Stilleto 107 - PD 126R used primarily for AFF and a Mirage G3 - Safire 109 - PD 126R used primarily for Birdman but is occasionally pressed into service as an AFF back-to-back rig.

I'm 44 years old.

I think that 1st generation AAD's like the Sentinel and FXC were compromised when the sport grew away from solo jumps and bigger RW dives were being done and CRW developed.

I think the current generation of AAD's like the Cypres/Cypres 2, Vigil, Argus are again compromised by the sport's growth, in particular WRT Swooping and wingsuit flight. Gone are the days of "turn on and forget." Gone are the Cypres ads showing some drawing of a dude swooping a pond. You better think carefully about that bomb on your back. The sport is contantly growing and changing. Your cypres is not.

The Vigil may have the ability to evolve through it's ability to upgrade it's software in the same way the Neptune has grown with the sport in recent years. The Cypress is stuck. Sure, you can get the "Fast" version, but then I doubt you will get it to fire, even if spinning unconsious in a wing suit.

Right now, while AAD manufacturers either cling to the past or try and contemplate the future, I prefer to rely on what I started with, which has evolved along with the sport. If I go in as a result of a no pull, you can resurect this thread and make me look foolish if you wish. AAD's are a personal choice. I have more saves on myself than the entire Cypres/Vigil/Argus companies combined. I've never had a boot up problem, leaked acid into my reserve container or had dodgy battery problems. I trust myself and that's good enough for me at the moment. I base that trust on the actions I have taken in my 19 cut aways from wraps, entanglements and malfunctions, and resolving one reserve problem.

I will put an AAD back in my rig when an event I'm participating in requires it.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Frenchy68 0]

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piisfish - Is there any reason why you don't use the ability to adjust your Cypres for different take-off and landing altitudes?

yes, when the difference in altitude exceeds Cypres adjustment boundaries... Otherwise I usually do the adjustment.

Have you found yourself beeing more concerned whether it's on or not since your two way FF with your PC?

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[jimmytavino 16]

Yes.... NOW my main rig does has a cypres ( the second rig does not)
I got one about 4 years ago, after 30 years of jumping without one. Used "old style" AAD's for my static lines, then,,,,on my own.
I got one only when their reliability had become more or less proven.
Now. all my buddies who grabbed them when they first came available, are moaning and cryin' cause they are all hitting their 12 years...
I'm still good to go for 8 more.
never understood why someone would jump a rig WITH an aad, but insist on NOT turning it on.
Oh well to each his own.Now what's the deal with hop and pops????.. I thought as long as you climbed above activation altitude, the the unit would operate as designed... What am I missing here..
Ps. should i not do H & P's below 2,500 feet if my cypres is armed???... how about below 3,500 feet, any difference??? this is news to me.
jmy

[piisfish 136]

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Have you found yourself beeing more concerned whether it's on or not since your two way FF with your PC?

actually not. But I'm definitely glad it was ON for this particular jump. Don't do many camera jumps since though. And now my helmet is much safer.
Anyways I usually turn the Cypres ON. Maybe 90-95% of my jumps are with an AAD ON. If I jump from/to the mountain, it's OFF, if I exit LOW, it's OFF. Otherwise it's generally ON.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[snakeeater 0]

Always jump with my cypres on. I haven't done any jumps with that much difference between take off and landing altitude, yet (gotta go to st.moritz next winter).

I did a few jumps with a borrowed rig without cypres and it didn't bother me much. But last year i saw a friend being saved by an AAD after being knocked out in a freefall collision. Don't think he had bad training or was stupid.. shit just happens sometimes.

being new in this sport, i would be interested for the reasons why some of you turn off their AADs on hop n' pops..

"He tried to kill me! He tried to f***ing kill me!"

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Always on unless it's a hop n pop.

And I'm one of those "old timers"

Ahhh, but I remember the French guy, was it Charmet?, who went in on a non pull on a hop and pop in Oregon a few years back. At the time, he had more jumps than even Bill Dause.

I don't mind not having an AAD, but if I have it, I use it, regardless of the jump.

I learned on green gutter gear, rounds with reserves in front, and made my first 2000 jumps without an AAD. The sad part is that too many friends of mine would still be here if we had had good AAD's back then.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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My 6th jump was my 1st freefall, and there was no AAD on that rig. In the words of my JM just before exit "Remember, there is no hurry. You have the rest of your life to pull."

My JM told me "Remember, You're a dead man 'til you pull!"

Ah, nothing like blowing sunshine up the student's butt.

[za_skydiver 0]

I voted 10% or less, because i have used one in less than 10% of my jumps

My first 320 jumps i never jumped with an AAD (except for student freefall gear, and demo gear). I have one now, cause it came with the rig i just bought (was out of the sport for 6 years). Its a cypres 1 with 4 years left on it. When the 4 years run out, i dont know if ill get another one (i might be broke again). Its not something i would ever rely on, but its nice to know its there.

Some dream of flying, i live the dream...

[NWFlyer 2]

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being new in this sport, i would be interested for the reasons why some of you turn off their AADs on hop n' pops..

Swoopers (who often do hop & pops when working on high performance landings) will turn them off because the rate of descent in their swoop can be within the firing parameters of an AAD. See this fatality for an example.

Others choose not to turn them on because the risk of a freefall collision presumably goes away on a hop & pop.

To answer the original question - I'm very much a "new timer" and I have always had one and choose to jump with it. I have also made jumps without it when my Vigil was being fixed, and I'm glad that I had that experience (it was early in my skydiving career - maybe 60 jumps) to know, for sure, that I could be perfectly comfortable in the air without one.

I choose to jump with one for most jumps, though, because I consider it a cheap insurance policy against fuck-ups - mine or other jumpers around me. Shit happens and if I can do anything to prevent that shit from taking my life, I will do it. That said, I would be very angry with myself and would seriously reconsider my training and my future in the sport if I have an AAD fire due to anything other than physical incapacitation.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[GrabGrass 0]

Voted "Yes" because I always have one, right there on the end of my arm, the thing with the glove on it....works everytime.

~ "Pack Fast, Pull Low... and Date Your Riggers WIFE!" ~

[Ron 7]

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Read that one more time, but this time replace the work CYPRESS with RESERVE. Would you jump without a reserve? That would be foolish.

Relying on ANY device is foolish...to INCLUDE an AAD. But you do not seem to have a problem with relying on an AAD.

Also there is a BIG difference between a PASSIVE device (AAD) and an active back up (Reserve). If I had a student that was not sure they could use a reserve, I would not let them jump. If someone does not trust themselves enough without a CYPRES...Then they are not comfertable enough with the skydiving process and the parts they have to play in it.....Do you know people who WILL NOT drive unless they have a car with an airbag?

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Don't go telling a student that he has no right jumping just because he wants to take advantage of the progress we've made in equipment before he gets in the airplane.

Then maybe you should not go around telling experienced jumpers that they should use a CYPRES? Why do you have the right to tell people to do stuff, but not others?

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Just because someone won't jump without one doesn't mean they are "RELYING" on it.

That is the very definition of "relying":

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1. To be dependent for support, help, or supply: relies on her parents for tuition.
2. To place or have faith or confidence: relied on them to tell him the truth.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,471]

>Read that one more time, but this time replace the work CYPRESS
> with RESERVE. Would you jump without a reserve? That would be
> foolish.

I would, and I have. I would not _skydive_ without a reserve mainly because it's illegal, and the tradeoffs I would have to make in the sort of jumps I did would not be worth it.

>When I exit the aircraft, I want to make sure I've done everything
>possible to assist me in the case that I need an extra out.

I very much doubt that. I doubt you have a tertiary reserve, or an AAD on your main, or an ELT. You don't jump with every possible backup; you jump with what makes you feel comfortable, as everyone does.

Just remember that what makes _you_ feel comfortable is not what makes other people feel comfortable.

>I don't make the kind of jumps that adds risk to using them (CREW,
>etc.).. so why not? makes me safer.

Well, makes you feel safer. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

>Don't go telling a student that he has no right jumping just because
> he wants to take advantage of the progress we've made in
> equipment before he gets in the airplane...

I do that. If a student of mine tells me he wants an audible, or a tertiary reserve, I tell them no.

> Just because someone won't jump without one doesn't mean
>they are "RELYING" on it.

Sure it does. If you didn't rely on it, you wouldn't need it to jump.

[MotherGoose 0]

When I first got off rental gear and went on personal gear without an AAD . . . I was shitting bricks!! The thought of not having the AAD scared the crap out of me. After the first 2 or 3 jumps without it, I realized that not having one, does not affect your jump in anyway. Of course, as many people have eluded to here, AAD's do more good than harm, so I am in no way putting them down. I suppose I will have a huge dilemma when I go to purchase my first BRAND NEW rig next year. At this point, I do not use one and it doesn't bother me in the least. (I'm not doing crazy bigway's with multiple jumpers yet either, just small groups)

You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

[peregrinerose 0]

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Sure it does. If you didn't rely on it, you wouldn't need it to jump.

I don't rely on a seatbelt either, but I also don't drive without putting it on. Just because I won't jump without an AAD doesn't mean I rely on it. Everyone weighs their risk/benefits differently. To me, an AAD minisculely decreases my risk as a jumper (from a shit happens, get knocked out stance), so makes sense to have it/use it.

What other people do is their choice. I don't think someone who makes an educated decision to not use an AAD is stupid, they just weigh the risks and benefits differently than I do.

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Ron 7]

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don't rely on a seatbelt either, but I also don't drive without putting it on. Just because I won't jump without an AAD doesn't mean I rely on it.

Yes it does:

That is the very definition of "relying":

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1. To be dependent for support, help, or supply: relies on her parents for tuition.
2. To place or have faith or confidence: relied on them to tell him the truth.

Now you can debate how smart it is (or not) to depend on a seatbelt, or an AAD...But you cannot debate a defintion of a word.

If you must have "X" to do "Y", then you are dependant on "X".

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,471]

>I don't rely on a seatbelt either, but I also don't drive without putting it on.

I usually use one as well. I know many people who, in general, won't drive without a seatbelt. Nothing wrong with that.

But if you refused to drive a car with a broken seatbelt across a parking lot to the service station, then you might be overly reliant on that seatbelt, and may assume that it can do more than you think it can to protect you. I think most people are not that reliant on seatbelts.

In terms of skydiving, plenty of people don't jump without an AAD. But if they discovered that their AAD didn't work, and they absolutely refused to jump without one - even if they found out in the plane and had the option to do a hop and pop - they may be overly reliant on it.

In terms of safety, the ideal skydiver does not need an AAD to skydive safely, and is perfectly confident he can jump without one - and then he uses one anyway.

[jlmiracle 7]

Why concentrate on the few fatalities we have that may or may not have saved someone if they have an AAD.

Why not focus on the hook turns and swooping that kills and/or injures jumpers almost weekly.

I have a AAD. I turn it on when I jump.

j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[openingshok 0]

My life and my kids growing up with a father far outweighs $1200 every 12 years. It's like anyone who drives down the freeway without your seatbelt. It may not be your fault, but the other guy can't bring you back to life.

[jacketsdb23 45]

I voted yes - 90% of the time.

I have been around the sport for what seems like a long time. I watched my father make about 850 jumps in the 80's to mid 90's when the AAD for experienced jumpers just came out (cypres). At that point, the AAD was required only for students. I did my first jump at 16 with an AAD in '96. I left the sport for a while and came back in March of '06. Obviously the technology is getting better, but the real question is whether its keeping up with the progression of the sport. Skydiving has evolved so much just in the 10 years I have been away. The question of jumping with an AAD in not black and white. There are so many disciplines in skydiving that each one needs to be looked at independently.

For me, I jump with a cypres most of the time for several reasons:

1. I have 140 jumps. I do not swoop, I do not jump with wing man suits.

2. I jump with others that have low number of jumps (both RW and FF). Although I am confident in my abilities, I sometimes have to consider other people.

3. Although it hasn't happened yet in my life, i'm sure that I posses the ability to fuck up and in skydiving, it only takes once. Hopefully that does not happen and God forbid if it does - I need to take a serious look at my participation in the sport.

I know that a AAD is a device that CAN work. I know that the device CAN and HAS failed and/or misfired. I CHOOSE to take the chance of wearing one most of the time and the device for all intents and purposes DOES NOT EXiST when I wear it. At this point in my skydiving career I feel that the AAD is a reasonable device to wear. When or if I get into other disciplines I will evaluate its use.

All this being said, I recently sold my rig with a cypres in it. The new one I bought was supposed to come with a cypres but did not (thats a different story). I wanted to jump the rig and wanted to go to Lost Prairie which I did without purchasing one. So currently, I do not have a cypres until my next repack.

All in all, skydiving inherently has risks. The only person that has the opinion that matters on wearing an AAD or not is the person putting the rig on their back. All we can do as jumpers is continue to learn as much as we can and make our decisions accordingly.

Blue Skies.

Marcel

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[openingshok 0]

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I'm still pretty new and I'm got use to having them through student training. I've only made two jumps without an AAD and I didn't feel safe. I just got my first container and reserve, and I already had a main but I decided not to jump it until I got an AAD. I mostly do belly with the occasionally clear and pull, but I don't like hop an pops.

While I was instructing s/l I did more hop and pops than not and never thought of turning mine off. I see that alot "If I'm doing hop and pops I turn it off". What's the point? That's just an extra step to do before a h&p, and a step that can be forgotten before the next high load. It's like stopping at the Iowa border just to take your motorcycle helmet off. What's the point?

[openingshok 0]

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being new in this sport, i would be interested for the reasons why some of you turn off their AADs on hop n' pops..

Swoopers (who often do hop & pops when working on high performance landings) will turn them off because the rate of descent in their swoop can be within the firing parameters of an AAD. See this fatality for an example.

Doesn't SSK have a upgrade that fixed this problem?

Others choose not to turn them on because the risk of a freefall collision presumably goes away on a hop & pop.

To answer the original question - I'm very much a "new timer" and I have always had one and choose to jump with it. I have also made jumps without it when my Vigil was being fixed, and I'm glad that I had that experience (it was early in my skydiving career - maybe 60 jumps) to know, for sure, that I could be perfectly comfortable in the air without one.

I choose to jump with one for most jumps, though, because I consider it a cheap insurance policy against fuck-ups - mine or other jumpers around me. Shit happens and if I can do anything to prevent that shit from taking my life, I will do it. That said, I would be very angry with myself and would seriously reconsider my training and my future in the sport if I have an AAD fire due to anything other than physical incapacitation.

[NWFlyer 2]

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Doesn't SSK have a upgrade that fixed this problem?

I've heard a little about that but I don't know enough to comment on whether it would change a swooper's decision because 1) I'm not a swooper (so I've never turned off my AAD because I fear that it might fire during a high-performance landing) and 2) I don't own a Cypres (so I haven't kept up as closely with developments in that product as I have with the AAD that I do own). I was just offering one reason why some jumpers might choose not to turn it on during a H&P.