Do you jump with an AAD? (turned on)

[wmw999 2,121]

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Doesn't SSK have a upgrade that fixed this problem?

I'm no swooper, but I would not be among the first to buy something like this. My feeling is that any last-resort technology should be as well-tested as possible, preferably by something other than customers.

I'm unlikely to upgrade my Cypres until it's dead and gone, too, for all of the same reasons. Technology that's supposed to lie there and do nothing should do exactly that, and it should do the absolute minimum when it comes time to work, because that's fewer scenarios to test and interact.

A lot of people don't see having a Cypres as a big goal. If I mainly swooped, I'd be very unlikely to own one. The rig I bought had one, for which I was glad. But I'd jump a rig without one in a heartbeat; the vast majority of my jumps were before AADs were for experienced jumpers.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[travisjones 0]

I have an astra in my current rig, but I havent turned it on for the past fifty jumps. I except the extra risk. If I get knocked out in freefall or some other freak event happens its my own damn fault for being in that situation in the first place. I hate relying on a box full of wires and chips to save my life.
Age: 19

[kelpdiver 2]

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But if you refused to drive a car with a broken seatbelt across a parking lot to the service station, then you might be overly reliant on that seatbelt, and may assume that it can do more than you think it can to protect you. I think most people are not that reliant on seatbelts.

Bill, you said you wouldn't jump without a reserve largely because its illegal. Same would be true of driving without a seatbelt, and the chance of being caught is on par or higher.

BTW, I think people assume the airbag does more than it really does. Those who wear their seatbelt only get a modest safety boost from the bag.

[JohnRich 4]

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I've noticed that many 'old-timers' are less likely to jump with an AAD, Which I personally think is foolish.

No AAD, age 53.

"Old timers" have learned that their own instincts are more reliable than some electronic black box. We've seen the black boxes fail too often. We trust ourselves. Our batteries don't go dead. Our eyeballs aren't fooled by burbles. Our survival instincts don't wait for a gizmo to save us.

You new kids are from the video game generation - you've been trained like sheep to trust electronics without question. I watch with amusement as the new guys exit the plane when the green light comes on, without bothering to look out the door to check the spot or see if there is another airplane underneath. You new guys trust gizmos so much that you don't even bother to double-check the facts for yourself. You don't even look at the ground - you just wait for an electronic beep in your ear to tell you the alititude. You're like Pavlov's dogs: green light comes on - you respond like a robot without thinking.

AAD's? Bah Humbug!

Signed,
An old fuddy duddy

[kelpdiver 2]

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Now you can debate how smart it is (or not) to depend on a seatbelt, or an AAD...But you cannot debate a defintion of a word.

Oh, Ron. You know better than that.

In fact, when a dictionary enters a debate, it's usually a sign. A stupid one. Right now I can see Ron Livingston looking up money laundering.

[kelpdiver 2]

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"Old timers" have learned that their own instincts are more reliable than some electronic black box. We've seen the black boxes fail too often. We trust ourselves. Our batteries don't go dead. Our eyeballs aren't fooled by burbles. Our survival instincts don't wait for a gizmo to save us.

I agree with the general risk of trusting battery power, but the history of no pull deaths says that the black box is more reliable. Even with the more experienced.

[riggerrob 558]

I am an old-fart who made a thousand jumps before Cypres was invented.
As a freefall student, I remember the chief instructor telling me "Quit being such a sissy and give that (chest-mounted) reserve with and AAD to a first jump student.
I made 500 tandem jumps before AADs became mandatory and another 3,000 tandems while wearing AADs.
Both of my personal rigs contain Cypres, mainly because my boss insists that I wear an AAD while doing coach and PFF jumps with students.
AADs are mandatory at our DZ until you have a B Certificate and will probably be mandatory for everyone next year.

[Ron 7]

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Oh, Ron. You know better than that.

Yes, I do know you can't debate the meaning of a word, yet people like you will try...I never understand how you can ignore the very definition of a word. Unless you are doing it to try and make yourself feel better....That still means you are wrong.

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In fact, when a dictionary enters a debate, it's usually a sign. A stupid one.

Well, if people knew the definitions or did not try to change them, they would not need to be brought up. Not my fault people try to change the definition of a word.

Simple facts folks...If you need "X" to do "Y" then you ARE DEPENDENT and you RELY on it. Please try to prove that is not correct, you can't.

Maybe you should stop trying to change a definition and debate the reasons.

Being dependent is not necessarily bad in and of itself, it depends on the REASON. But claiming you are not, when you clearly are, is silly.

For example....I am dependent on an AAD when I do Tandems. It is a requirement, same with wearing a seatbelt when driving and jumping with a reserve on a skydive.

However, I am not afraid to drive without a seatbelt (did it this weekend twice on a super short drive), and I am not afraid to jump without a reserve (BASE). I have never done a Tandem without an AAD since it would be illegal and I owe it to the student to follow the rules.

But really....You can claim all ya want that you are not dependent or do not rely on something, but your actions do not match your words.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jacketsdb23 45]

Also, I thought I would share one relevant personal experience. When I was 12 years old, I watched a jumper go in on my fathers rig. The older jumper was a friend of the family. Medical reports, from what I remember, appear to suggest at some point jumper had a heart attack. Although the jumper, nick name was 'RED', got the pilot chute out it remained in his burble to just below the tree line. The jumper was at full line stretch when impacting the ground.

I'm not sure if the cypres was out yet when this accident occurred. I know that my father did not jump with one and the deceased was using my fathers rig. If there was truly a medical issue in the air, its possible reserve procedures (or simply clearing the burble from your back - think "check", "check" that you learn in First Jump Course) were not physically able to be performed. In this unfortunate case, a properly functioning AAD may have saved his life.

These types of accidents leave quite an impression on anyone, especially a 12 year old aspiring skydiver. The AAD debate for me began a long time ago.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[kelpdiver 2]

FTR, I don't support mandatory AAD use. I just think the same old debates lines on the subject are a bit silly.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Yes, I do know you can't debate the meaning of a word, yet people like you will try

ok - define the word safe (or safety) as applicable to skydiving. I'm sorry, you can't give an absolute answer. Same goes with a word like reliant.

If words have one single and clear meaning (and the fact that many have several in the dictionary already disproves this), why do we have millions of lawyers in this country? Contracts should be obvious, right?

Uh, no.

---
And I gave the defense for the AAD. The accidents that happened with and without them. Whether or not people should 'allow' themselves to be saved by AADs, it happens.

[Mr17Hz 1]

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That is the very definition of "relying":

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1. To be dependent for support, help, or supply: relies on her parents for tuition.
2. To place or have faith or confidence: relied on them to tell him the truth.

To rely on an AAD would be to jump out of the aircraft with no intention of deploying your main or reserve, or to at some point durring the skydive make the decision that you'll be okay because the AAD will get you out of this mess. Nobody should ever rely on an AAD. I wear my seatbelt in my car. I don't feel comfortable in a car without a belt - i might ride in it anyway because transportation is often a requirement. Skydiving is rarely a requirement (only in the case of an emergency landing), and is significantly more dangerous than driving a car.

Also, I'm not telling any experience skydivers that they have to use an AAD, I made no statements like "if you dont jump with an AAD you don't belong skydiving". I just said that I feel that anybody that doesn't use one without a good reason is foolish. That is my opinion, and I hoped that bringing up the topic may allow others to re-evaluate their stance on the subject.

Matt Christenson

[email protected]
http://www.RealDropzone.com - A new breed of dropzone manifest software.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Read that one more time, but this time replace the work CYPRESS with RESERVE. Would you jump without a reserve?

Sure. I've skydived without a reserve because I wanted to jump from a helicopter in a foreign country and only had single canopy rigs with me.

Jumping with a reserve is about risk reward trade-offs like most other aspects of skydiving (canopy choice, jump type, jump size, etc).

On most jumps I wouldn't want to live with the equipment (245 square foot F111 seven cell vs. 105 square foot elliptical) and packing (60 minutes vs. 6 minutes) limitations needed to make the risk personally acceptable and there'd be no reward from the exercise if I was opening with ample altitude to use a reserve.

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When I exit the aircraft, I want to make sure I've done everything possible to assist me in the case that I need an extra out.

Since you're jumping a Safire 189 instead of a Parafoil 302 you've already made at least one risk-reward trade-off that's increased your risk of dying or being injured.

Subsequent canopy choices you're likely to accept as a male skydiver are more likely to kill you than not having an AAD.

[billvon 2,400]

>In fact, when a dictionary enters a debate, it's usually a sign. A stupid one.

Very true! Another version of Godwin's Law, perhaps.

[Ron 7]

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ok - define the word safe (or safety) as applicable to skydiving

Easy

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1. Secure from danger, harm, or evil.
2. Free from danger or injury; unhurt: safe and sound.
3. Free from risk; sure: a safe bet.
4. Affording protection: a safe place.
5. Baseball. Having reached a base without being put out, as a batter or base runner.

As it applies to skydiving....Skydiving is not a Safe sport. Only you want to change definitions of words to fit your choices.

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FTR, I don't support mandatory AAD use. I just think the same old debates lines on the subject are a bit silly.

Then I wonder why you continue to debate them?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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To rely on an AAD would be to jump out of the aircraft with no intention of deploying your main or reserve

Nope. If you need one to jump your rely on it to do an act.

Simple litmus test. Would you do "X" without "Y"?

Yes? You are not dependent.
No? You are.

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or to at some point durring the skydive make the decision that you'll be okay because the AAD will get you out of this mess.

OK, before you get on the plane is part of a skydive if you will only get on a plane with one...Then you are making the decision that will be ok due to having one, vs staying on the ground.

If you need something to do something else is the very defintion of dependancy....You will get further along if you admit that and instead focus on WHY people make that choice.

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I made no statements like "if you dont jump with an AAD you don't belong skydiving". I just said that I feel that anybody that doesn't use one without a good reason is foolish

Same things, but you think only your opinion matters.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[peregrinerose 0]

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If you need something to do something else is the very defintion of dependancy....You will get further along if you admit that and instead focus on WHY people make that choice.

No one 'needs' an AAD to jump... if that were the case, no skydiving would have taken place prior to the invention of AADs.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[pilotdave 0]

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Being dependent is not necessarily bad in and of itself, it depends on the REASON

So being dependent on AADs isn't, in itself, bad. So why argue whether or not people are dependent if that fact doesn't make one bit of difference without knowing why or how they are dependent?

You previously said: "Relying on ANY device is foolish...to INCLUDE an AAD."

So wait a minute. "Being dependent is not necessarily bad in and of itself," but "relying on ANY device is foolish?" Now you've lost me. Well, no you haven't because I've read your argument enough times that I think I understand it, even though I personally find it to be complete, illogical bullshit.

Relying on a seatbelt isn't bad in and of itself (ie wearing it EVERY time you drive). But assuming you can crash into brick walls safely because you have a seatbelt on is bad. Two different kinds of reliance on the same device, wouldn't you say?

Choosing to wear an AAD on all skydives vs. choosing not to pull your reserve handle because you've got an AAD. Two different kinds of reliance on the same device. One isn't in and of itself bad, the other is.

You start to lose me when you suggest that someone SHOULD be willing to make any skydive without an AAD that they would with an AAD. That's a silly litmus test because there's usually no good reason to want to make a skydive without an AAD. What does that mental test prove? I know you aren't recommending that anybody actually go out and shut their cypres off for a jump just to prove they have the balls. You're only suggesting people should be willing, in their own mind, to make the jump.

Should somebody be willing to drive on the highway with no seatbelt? If they aren't willing, should they automatically be told they shouldn't drive on the highway? Is highway driving too dangerous for that person? Or is that person aware of the benefits of seatbelts and chooses to wear one, since not wearing one has no benefit.

I agree that AADs aren't magical safety devices that make skydiving safe. But I don't agree that choosing to use one on every jump is a sign of some sort of poor thinking or something that is wrong.

BTW, for the record, I'm 26 and normally jump with an AAD but will (and have) jump without it when it's out for service.

Edit: I may not meet that definition of AAD dependent, but I've never made a jump without: A container, a main, a reserve, clothing, glasses, shoes, and a hard helmet (other than tandems). What's that say about me? Should I be willing to make a jump without some of those?

Dave

[Ron 7]

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No one 'needs' an AAD to jump... if that were the case, no skydiving would have taken place prior to the invention of AADs.

So you will jump without one?

This says otherwise :

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Just because I won't jump without an AAD doesn't mean I rely on it. "http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2396007#2396007

Not jumping without one, but you will jump with one does infact mean you rely on it. Without it you would not jump.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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So being dependent on AADs isn't, in itself, bad. So why argue whether or not people are dependent if that fact doesn't make one bit of difference without knowing why or how they are dependent?

Simple, knowing why they are dependent they can take steps to reduce it, or focus on WHY they are dependent, not just buy an AAD and ignore the underlying issues.

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So wait a minute. "Being dependent is not necessarily bad in and of itself," but "relying on ANY device is foolish?" Now you've lost me. Well, no you haven't because I've read your argument enough times that I think I understand it, even though I personally find it to be complete, illogical bullshit

Nice...Can't talk like an adult?

I depend on an AAD to do Tandems. I do not depend an an AAD to jump.

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You start to lose me when you suggest that someone SHOULD be willing to make any skydive without an AAD that they would with an AAD. That's a silly litmus test because there's usually no good reason to want to make a skydive without an AAD. What does that mental test prove?

Not allowing a device to let you do dumber things is the reason. Using your head to make smart choices and not letting a device overide common sense is smart. Just buying a device and letting it increase your risk just cause you have one is not.

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I agree that AADs aren't magical safety devices that make skydiving safe. But I don't agree that choosing to use one on every jump is a sign of some sort of poor thinking or something that is wrong.

The diference is CHOOSING vs NEEDING.

I choose to use one when I can...Others will not even think about jumping without one.

If you can not see the very clear difference....Well that would explain your attacks and attitude.

BTW if you can't respond without the attacks...Don't bother.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jacketsdb23 45]

hey guys...lets use this important thread so that people can learn and understand the limitations of certain AAD devices. Maybe thats not the intent of the thread, it was just a poll, but I think people especially new jumpers like myself can benefit from learning why people jump with/without AAD's as opposed to learning the definition of certain words. Lets educate ourselves as a group (skydivers) and let people make their own decisions.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[Ron 7]

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hey guys...lets use this important thread so that people can learn and understand the limitations of certain AAD devices

Here is what I think rolled up into one last post here:

1. AAD's are good. You have a better chance of living to do another jump if you have one.

2. Don't let having an AAD let you make dumb choices, just cause you have one. I use the sentance, "Don't do a jump with an AAD that you would not do without one" as a guide.

Having an AAD will decrease your chances of DYING, but will not reduce, and can infact INCREASE, your chances of needing an AAD if you use it to do more dangerous things. Reference Booths law #2 ""The safer skydiving gear becomes, the more chances skydivers will take, in order to keep the fatality rate constant."

The smartest type of jumper will train like he has never heard of an AAD, only do jumps that he would be comfertable doing without one, and then puts one on anyway.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[beowulf 1]

I see things slightly different. I think if you jump with an AAD you need to take into account all of the constraints that come with the AAD. Specifically you need to keep in mind what conditions will cause it to activate and make sure that you avoid those conditions by either avoiding them or making adjustments to the AAD. So in that regards I don't think it is advisable to just turn on your AAD and forget about it. Read all the information available on your specific AAD and go over in your mind how and what situations will cause it to activate.

[snakeeater 0]

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You new kids are from the video game generation - you've been trained like sheep to trust electronics without question.

I'm really happy that my skydive instructors didn't train me like a sheep. I don't think sheep would be good skydivers. You must be jumping in a weird place to get that impression from "my generation" jumpers.


(I'm 28, have a cypres and always turn it on before jumping)

"He tried to kill me! He tried to f***ing kill me!"

[CSpenceFLY 1]

I voted 90% but it's really more.I jump with an AAD but not having one wold not keep me from jumping.It might effect what jumps I went on but that would be all.


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