JeffSkydiver 0 #1 January 18, 2005 Hi all, I recently returned to skydiving after a 23 year hiatus. Much has changed. I ask the DZ instructors lots and lots of questions. I'm happy to be back. Here's what happened in the plane the other day and what that would have meant 23 years ago. I was doing a solo dive. There were about 20 or so in the Otter. Several of the DZ instructors and Tandem Masters were there. I confirmed with the one closest to me my thought that I should wait 5 seconds before exiting after the jumper before me. My practice is to be at the door, looking out, ready to go and I watch the previous jumper or group fall while counting out the seconds. I also use my hand like a boxing referee sort of just to be sure I'm counting correctly and so the others in the plane know I'm counting. At about "a thousand 2," unknown persons in the plane start screaming, "GO GO GO GO." 23 years ago, as I recall it, that would never have happened except in the case of an aircraft emergency of some sort or for instance a main or reserve just popped out of someone's container - or mine. No one would ever scream "GO" except out of urgent necessity - it would be like crying "fire" in a crowded theatre. Without hesitation, I bailed. I asked one of the instructors about this - he wasn't on the load. He smiled and said, "yeah - people do that all the time - they're just impatient." He said it's mostly the Tandem Masters! Wow - at our DZ, the Tandem Masters are also the instructors. The same people teaching about exit separation and who were in the plane confirming in that case that I should wait 5 seconds are the same ones screaming "Go?" Before you answer: no I did not unduly delay. I began the count at the moment the last jumper exited, I was not counting slow. I did not lose track of time. I could see the previous jumper the whole time. I was also told not to worry about aircraft or in aircraft emergencies and people screaming, "Go." If it were truly an emergency, I would know it without people screaming. I would feel the plane buffetting etc. While that may be true, I wouldn't have known about a premature deployment, or a fire etc. Should we stop the practice of screaming "go" to a person or people in the door? What are your thoughts? jt* Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #2 January 18, 2005 QuoteWow - at our DZ, the Tandem Masters are also the instructors. Sometimes, being a TI doesn't mean much. Yo have the jumps and the $, presto, you are a TI. QuoteWhat are your thoughts? I would turn around, flip off whoever was screaming "GO!", then hose them on the spot. On the flip side of the coin, when people did take too long in the door and I had an AFF or tandem student, I would tell them to either exit or get out of the way. Don't compromise your safety because the TI's are getting impatient. They don't care about your safety, they just don't want to take a go-around. Things have hanged a lot on 23 years and not just the gear. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #3 January 18, 2005 When the jumpers in the aircraft start screaming "go" and they are no where near the door, that makes me so mad This is a problem that happens at more DZs then you think. The people that are yelling "go" are selfish and are worried about their spot, and have no idea what I can see with my head out the door. If it is a Tandem Instructors yelling "go" they need to act more professional, because they have a customer strapped to the front of them. The TI doesn't need to turn into a raving madman yelling and screaming. the Tandem passenger has no idea what is going on. There is one problem that I sometimes see with the spacing between groups. That is when a group waits in the door till the count of five seconds and then starts their climb out. For example: Group A leaves the aircraft, and group B starts their five second count. Then they start their climb out, now add at least five more seconds to the spacing, and it's ten seconds between groups. Start the climb out at the 2 second count. I so want to turn around and flip the person off that is yelling at me to go, but instead I act like I can't hear them. Or you could do like Bill Von does, he takes his helmet off and climbs back to the person that is yelling and ask them what they wanted. If that doesn't add some time Bottom line, I agree, when yelling go, go, go in a panic voice, that tells me there is an aircraft emergency and people better start getting out.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #4 January 18, 2005 QuoteShould we stop the practice of screaming "go" to a person or people in the door? What are your thoughts? YOU are responsible for YOU. THEY are responsible for THEM. If I don't like the spot/time between groups I don't go. PERIOD. If they don't like it they are free to exit in my place. I only leave the plane when I feel safe."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #5 January 18, 2005 It's sadly a common problem. I heard a brilliant idea for this situation a short while agon on this site. Calmly turn arround, cup your hand to your ear and say, "pardon?" thus 'delaying' them further. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sid 1 #6 January 18, 2005 QuoteIt's sadly a common problem. I heard a brilliant idea for this situation a short while agon on this site. Calmly turn arround, cup your hand to your ear and say, "pardon?" thus 'delaying' them further. I agree, I'd start my count again, and if they still scream, go back to one...........Pete Draper, Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gordy 0 #7 January 18, 2005 I cannot stand that! Normally you find its some twat, that can't see the spot, wearing a student rig that sees the green light go on and has a panic attack and has been programmed to shout go, by another twat wearing a student rig who saw the green light etc. Idiots! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #8 January 18, 2005 Look back at them and say Damn,you made me lose count,now I have to start over.One...Two... Three... I think it the sign of an immature jumper and usually a person that has not been to some of the larger DZ's or maybe any other DZ's.Another good one would be look back at them and yell NO NO..Whats the matter?Why can't I go? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #9 January 18, 2005 Quote What are your thoughts? jt I tend to agree... If someone yelled go, I probably would, regardless of separation, regardless if I was ready, thinking they knew something I didn't - like a pending deployment... I would then turn my dive into a track away from the last jumper, completely ruining my planned dive… I would hate for my fellow jumpers to train me to ignore verbal instructions and restart a count, as I rather be told to go instead of have to be tackled if my PC ever comes out… Fortunately I have never been told yet “GO” at our DZ yet - I have seen the tandem video guys (with a lot of experience) actually stand in the door making sure the separation is enough, not too little. I guess when I travel I will have to pretend “go” does not mean “go” from what you guys are saying. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gordy 0 #10 January 18, 2005 Good one! You normally hear of that working the other way, tandem says no, instructor thinks they shout go! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chrisgr 0 #11 January 18, 2005 Good of you to recognize when other jumpers are acting in a safe manner. It is very gratifying when you see people such as the tandem camera-fliers assisting with group separation. Take a moment sometime and tell these people ‘thanks’ and that you appreciated their assistance. Unfortunately, it does not get said enough in our sport. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TALONSKY 0 #12 January 18, 2005 Not that I would ever be one screaming in the plane to GO, but on the flip side if people are taking way too long to get out it can hose everyone else. I realize we can call a go around however we need to get as many out in a single pass and is it fair to the tandem student that just dropped $170 plus on a jump to have to pull higher so the video person can make it back or so we can make it back. I personally feel there is a fine line especially on groups to how long to wait if they wait five seconds to start their climb out and take 10 seconds to get ready that one group just hose everyone. I also find it interesting that the ones that have to pull high if the load is long are the ones that pay the most for the jump. I am not advocating screaming GO, just to point out sometimes there is another reason people may be getting impatient. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #13 January 18, 2005 I agree, the TI's were out of line. However, most people do take too long in the door. Every extra 2-3 seconds from every group in the plane adds up to mean a mile away. Exit seperation as determined by the uppers and jump run direction and ground speed includes your exit count. So if group 1 exits and the count is supposed to be 5, you get to the door, then start counting, then do an exit count, that's an extra 4 seconds. All of that can add up. I've been on some LOOOOOOONG spots due to that. Luckily with a tandem I can make it back from long spots without much worried...unless I have a mal.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chaoskitty 0 #14 January 18, 2005 Probably because about 75% of fun jumpers wouldnt know how to spot and have to rely on the pilot's spot. If you take your time in the door they get nervous. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ryoder 1,406 #15 January 18, 2005 The problem is people who blindly believe the pilot never screws up. I was on a 4-way with a very seasoned RW competitor who stubbornly waited for 20 seconds while TI's were screaming at us before starting the climbout. And you know what? We were STILL so short we barely made the landing area. The pilot had turned on the green at least a mile short of the appropriate point. I also saw an AFFI doing a solo jump, look out the door, then yell up toward the front: "Tell him to look out the left window!!!" The pilot looked out and saw that his jumprun was a MILE North of the arport, so he had to make a 90 degree left turn to even pass over the airport."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites meltdown 0 #16 January 18, 2005 I've been on many loads where a large RW group exiting first don't even start to move to the door until the green light comes on. Then they mosey on back, stick their heads out for a few seconds to spot, and begin climb out, if they feel so inclined. Of course, another 15-20 seconds goes by before they actually get out of the plane. I'm not usually one to yell "GO", but there are times when someone needs a kick in the ass. This assumes an acceptable spot, of course, which you don't always get. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,463 #17 January 18, 2005 >At about "a thousand 2," unknown persons in the plane start screaming, >"GO GO GO GO." This happens to me at Rantoul all the time. I'll be taking up a 6 way, the first group will go, and I'll get in the door to check the spot and wait for a few seconds. Someone will scream "GO!" When I hear that, I take off my helmet and go back to them to see if it really is an emergency or something. Once I determine that they just want me to go faster, I put my helmet back on, get back to the door, check the spot and climb out. It gives me the separation I need, lets me find out if there really is a problem - and is an incentive for them to not scream at me the next time. The only time I've ever heard anyone use that in an emergency was on an Otter I was on. Someone's bag fell out of their container, everyone screamed "GO!" and he started climbing out. The canopy deployed and wrapped around the tail. If they had just closed the door when his bag fell out it would have been a non-incident. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jimmytavino 16 #18 January 18, 2005 Unfortunately sometimes common courtesy and simple ettiquette get lost in the energy and excitement of an open door and a commencement of the exit..... Larger aircraft with " convenient " indicator lights... often cause this situation to be exacerbated.... Red usually means door,,, although depending on who is in the plane,,, ( and their relative "comfort" level..). it can also mean " DOOOOR!!! door door OhMiGod!!!! DOOOOOOR" !! ... as I am sure most of us have witnessed... ... Fact is....it only means,,, begin to prepare for the "ok to spot" light.... which is the GREEN light.... When the green 'lights up'... it means.. LOOK for traffic... Assess the location of the plane relative to the Spot... and IF HAPPY with everything,,, begin the climbout...... NOW.. when there are many many small groups,, or solos,, the T I's should be tuned into this,,, and should remain patient.. If there is only one larger sized group, before the tandems lets say,, then a strung out exit is less likely.... The "tuned in" T Master should not be so harried and hurried that he or She fails to get an idea of the profile of the ENTIRE lift... prior to take off..... Factor in windspeed at ALTITUDE,, and thereby the coressponding GROUND speed of the plane,,, and sometimes even 8 seconds in the door ,, may not be a problem...... A curving jumprun,, ( often executed subconciouslly) by a seasoned jump pilot,,, will often limit the likelihood of Loooog spots,,, anyway... For those who wanna "get out" or "go Go Go " NOW...!!!! suggest that they take a cessna to 3 grand and do just THAT... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bmcd308 0 #19 January 18, 2005 That is just a little back and forth comaraderie thing. Like when someone says "Who are the Rodriguez Brothers?" or "Rangers lead the way!" you yell back "FVCK the Rodriguez Brothers!" or "All the way!" The response to "GO!" is "FVCK YOU!" At least that's what I always say. Brent ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CieloDiosa 0 #20 January 18, 2005 i totally agree! i hate when people scream "GO!" when i first got off student status, and had around 20 jumps my first few fun jumps were with friends. i was still soo nervous because i no longer had an instructor with me and almost everytime when we would count for separation someone (a TI/video guy) would be yelling "GOOOOOOO!" as if that made me anymore calm one time i was even jumping out with an instructor (same guy as above) to finish my training, and i stumbled on exit so i re-did the count, 'pilot..up..down' but in the middle of my count my instructor was yelling "gooo...go!! GO!" i was soo confused i have it on my training videos, its kind of embarrassing to watch made me look reallll bad and feel pretty dim ~boogie ho!! pull before impact! L.A.S.T#14, PMS #309, Ci EL O DI O SA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cvfd1399 0 #21 January 18, 2005 QuoteExit seperation as determined by the uppers and jump run direction and ground speed includes your exit count Exactly!! If your ground speed is nill due to screaming uppers it may take a good 10 seconds to get the kind of seperation that 5 second in regular wind would give you. Oh the flip side if there are no uppers, or a down wind jump run you might be hauling ass and less than 5 sceonds might work. Most people are thinking if you dont get out in 5 seconds your screwed is what sums it up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zoter 0 #22 January 18, 2005 QuoteWhat are your thoughts? In the UK each jump is assigned a 'jumpmaster'.Usually the most experienced person on the load Although everyone on the load should be aware themselves of the run in, upper and lower winds ( and therefore exit separation) the JM is there to put it all together in terms of exit order, pilot comms etc. I'm very happy at figuring out my own spot, separation (based on winds and whats going on before me) but I still make it a point of always asking the JM what separation they recommend.......if it dont look right at the door I'll wait till it does. I can take care of myself and dont take any shit I am not due....if someone yells aggresively at the door to GO !... and does not have a bloody good reason for it.....they had better land off, and stay off. We all take our turn at the front of the plane......so your last out and the spot might be a little deeper than your optimum spot ??....suck it up and shut it up!!....you'll get your turn at the 'optimum spot' .....This kind of rudeness is totally avoidable and is very off putting to those just doing what the were instructed to do. When its the friendly banter we all do ....thats completel different... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #23 January 18, 2005 As someone mentioned in another thread. It is an example of the "me, me, me" mentality of some of our newer jumpers. They are rude, obnoxious and wear these traits as a badge of honor. You are right, that never happened 15 or so years ago. People in the back (front) of the plane, who had no idea what the fuck was going on, did not yell at people in the front (back) of the plane who did. I like the way Bill handled it. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JeffSkydiver 0 #24 January 19, 2005 Thanks for all your replies. Some of you may have missed the point that I was following instructions when told to wait 5 seconds - I didn't arbitrarily choose that time on my own. Secondly, I was clear that I commenced the count and was myself ready to dive as soon as the last jumper exited. In my case, a 5 second count would really have been a 5 second separation. This was not the case of moving to the door, then commencing the count, then spotting, then climbing out etc etc etc. It was very clear that I was standing in the door ready to dive solo and began the count just when the last jumper exited. I think in this case, there is no giving allowance to the screamers who were afraid that my counting would result in a 20 or 30 second separation. As far as yelling F U or giving the finger etc., not my style. I think I'll just be "deaf" and assume there is no aircraft or premature deployment emergency - a potentially dangerous assumption, I fear. Maybe it should start from the top down. Those of you who read this thread and somewhat agree and are Tandem Masters or Instructors, make a change yourself if need be and begin gently correcting others. If at your DZ you see this problem of unreasonable delay, then hold a class on the topic or post a bulletin at the DZ. Do something about it other than screaming at people who also paid money to be there. On the topic of having paid money to be there: Granted, my $19.00 ride to altitude is not as much as the Tandem passenger paid, but wait - I paid for instruction - twice - static line 23 years ago and AFF last month, bought gear twice and bought over 100 rides to altitude. Not much compared with the sky gods, but compared with the $300 Tandem passenger, I have paid my dues to be in that plane and have a safe skydive - especially when all I was doing was following instructions. Thanks again for your replies, jt* Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DShiznit 0 #25 January 19, 2005 I've jumped at several DZ's and have only encountered this to happen in one place... the largest. I've talked to the GM at the DZ that this happened at and have been told that you are responsible for you. To hell with the others that aren't in the door. You jump when you feel safe. I'm the guy that gives the "yellers" the finger and take my sweet time. Next time I'll try the billvon special. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 1 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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tdog 0 #9 January 18, 2005 Quote What are your thoughts? jt I tend to agree... If someone yelled go, I probably would, regardless of separation, regardless if I was ready, thinking they knew something I didn't - like a pending deployment... I would then turn my dive into a track away from the last jumper, completely ruining my planned dive… I would hate for my fellow jumpers to train me to ignore verbal instructions and restart a count, as I rather be told to go instead of have to be tackled if my PC ever comes out… Fortunately I have never been told yet “GO” at our DZ yet - I have seen the tandem video guys (with a lot of experience) actually stand in the door making sure the separation is enough, not too little. I guess when I travel I will have to pretend “go” does not mean “go” from what you guys are saying. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gordy 0 #10 January 18, 2005 Good one! You normally hear of that working the other way, tandem says no, instructor thinks they shout go! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chrisgr 0 #11 January 18, 2005 Good of you to recognize when other jumpers are acting in a safe manner. It is very gratifying when you see people such as the tandem camera-fliers assisting with group separation. Take a moment sometime and tell these people ‘thanks’ and that you appreciated their assistance. Unfortunately, it does not get said enough in our sport. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TALONSKY 0 #12 January 18, 2005 Not that I would ever be one screaming in the plane to GO, but on the flip side if people are taking way too long to get out it can hose everyone else. I realize we can call a go around however we need to get as many out in a single pass and is it fair to the tandem student that just dropped $170 plus on a jump to have to pull higher so the video person can make it back or so we can make it back. I personally feel there is a fine line especially on groups to how long to wait if they wait five seconds to start their climb out and take 10 seconds to get ready that one group just hose everyone. I also find it interesting that the ones that have to pull high if the load is long are the ones that pay the most for the jump. I am not advocating screaming GO, just to point out sometimes there is another reason people may be getting impatient. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #13 January 18, 2005 I agree, the TI's were out of line. However, most people do take too long in the door. Every extra 2-3 seconds from every group in the plane adds up to mean a mile away. Exit seperation as determined by the uppers and jump run direction and ground speed includes your exit count. So if group 1 exits and the count is supposed to be 5, you get to the door, then start counting, then do an exit count, that's an extra 4 seconds. All of that can add up. I've been on some LOOOOOOONG spots due to that. Luckily with a tandem I can make it back from long spots without much worried...unless I have a mal.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chaoskitty 0 #14 January 18, 2005 Probably because about 75% of fun jumpers wouldnt know how to spot and have to rely on the pilot's spot. If you take your time in the door they get nervous. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ryoder 1,406 #15 January 18, 2005 The problem is people who blindly believe the pilot never screws up. I was on a 4-way with a very seasoned RW competitor who stubbornly waited for 20 seconds while TI's were screaming at us before starting the climbout. And you know what? We were STILL so short we barely made the landing area. The pilot had turned on the green at least a mile short of the appropriate point. I also saw an AFFI doing a solo jump, look out the door, then yell up toward the front: "Tell him to look out the left window!!!" The pilot looked out and saw that his jumprun was a MILE North of the arport, so he had to make a 90 degree left turn to even pass over the airport."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites meltdown 0 #16 January 18, 2005 I've been on many loads where a large RW group exiting first don't even start to move to the door until the green light comes on. Then they mosey on back, stick their heads out for a few seconds to spot, and begin climb out, if they feel so inclined. Of course, another 15-20 seconds goes by before they actually get out of the plane. I'm not usually one to yell "GO", but there are times when someone needs a kick in the ass. This assumes an acceptable spot, of course, which you don't always get. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,463 #17 January 18, 2005 >At about "a thousand 2," unknown persons in the plane start screaming, >"GO GO GO GO." This happens to me at Rantoul all the time. I'll be taking up a 6 way, the first group will go, and I'll get in the door to check the spot and wait for a few seconds. Someone will scream "GO!" When I hear that, I take off my helmet and go back to them to see if it really is an emergency or something. Once I determine that they just want me to go faster, I put my helmet back on, get back to the door, check the spot and climb out. It gives me the separation I need, lets me find out if there really is a problem - and is an incentive for them to not scream at me the next time. The only time I've ever heard anyone use that in an emergency was on an Otter I was on. Someone's bag fell out of their container, everyone screamed "GO!" and he started climbing out. The canopy deployed and wrapped around the tail. If they had just closed the door when his bag fell out it would have been a non-incident. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jimmytavino 16 #18 January 18, 2005 Unfortunately sometimes common courtesy and simple ettiquette get lost in the energy and excitement of an open door and a commencement of the exit..... Larger aircraft with " convenient " indicator lights... often cause this situation to be exacerbated.... Red usually means door,,, although depending on who is in the plane,,, ( and their relative "comfort" level..). it can also mean " DOOOOR!!! door door OhMiGod!!!! DOOOOOOR" !! ... as I am sure most of us have witnessed... ... Fact is....it only means,,, begin to prepare for the "ok to spot" light.... which is the GREEN light.... When the green 'lights up'... it means.. LOOK for traffic... Assess the location of the plane relative to the Spot... and IF HAPPY with everything,,, begin the climbout...... NOW.. when there are many many small groups,, or solos,, the T I's should be tuned into this,,, and should remain patient.. If there is only one larger sized group, before the tandems lets say,, then a strung out exit is less likely.... The "tuned in" T Master should not be so harried and hurried that he or She fails to get an idea of the profile of the ENTIRE lift... prior to take off..... Factor in windspeed at ALTITUDE,, and thereby the coressponding GROUND speed of the plane,,, and sometimes even 8 seconds in the door ,, may not be a problem...... A curving jumprun,, ( often executed subconciouslly) by a seasoned jump pilot,,, will often limit the likelihood of Loooog spots,,, anyway... For those who wanna "get out" or "go Go Go " NOW...!!!! suggest that they take a cessna to 3 grand and do just THAT... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bmcd308 0 #19 January 18, 2005 That is just a little back and forth comaraderie thing. Like when someone says "Who are the Rodriguez Brothers?" or "Rangers lead the way!" you yell back "FVCK the Rodriguez Brothers!" or "All the way!" The response to "GO!" is "FVCK YOU!" At least that's what I always say. Brent ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CieloDiosa 0 #20 January 18, 2005 i totally agree! i hate when people scream "GO!" when i first got off student status, and had around 20 jumps my first few fun jumps were with friends. i was still soo nervous because i no longer had an instructor with me and almost everytime when we would count for separation someone (a TI/video guy) would be yelling "GOOOOOOO!" as if that made me anymore calm one time i was even jumping out with an instructor (same guy as above) to finish my training, and i stumbled on exit so i re-did the count, 'pilot..up..down' but in the middle of my count my instructor was yelling "gooo...go!! GO!" i was soo confused i have it on my training videos, its kind of embarrassing to watch made me look reallll bad and feel pretty dim ~boogie ho!! pull before impact! L.A.S.T#14, PMS #309, Ci EL O DI O SA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cvfd1399 0 #21 January 18, 2005 QuoteExit seperation as determined by the uppers and jump run direction and ground speed includes your exit count Exactly!! If your ground speed is nill due to screaming uppers it may take a good 10 seconds to get the kind of seperation that 5 second in regular wind would give you. Oh the flip side if there are no uppers, or a down wind jump run you might be hauling ass and less than 5 sceonds might work. Most people are thinking if you dont get out in 5 seconds your screwed is what sums it up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zoter 0 #22 January 18, 2005 QuoteWhat are your thoughts? In the UK each jump is assigned a 'jumpmaster'.Usually the most experienced person on the load Although everyone on the load should be aware themselves of the run in, upper and lower winds ( and therefore exit separation) the JM is there to put it all together in terms of exit order, pilot comms etc. I'm very happy at figuring out my own spot, separation (based on winds and whats going on before me) but I still make it a point of always asking the JM what separation they recommend.......if it dont look right at the door I'll wait till it does. I can take care of myself and dont take any shit I am not due....if someone yells aggresively at the door to GO !... and does not have a bloody good reason for it.....they had better land off, and stay off. We all take our turn at the front of the plane......so your last out and the spot might be a little deeper than your optimum spot ??....suck it up and shut it up!!....you'll get your turn at the 'optimum spot' .....This kind of rudeness is totally avoidable and is very off putting to those just doing what the were instructed to do. When its the friendly banter we all do ....thats completel different... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #23 January 18, 2005 As someone mentioned in another thread. It is an example of the "me, me, me" mentality of some of our newer jumpers. They are rude, obnoxious and wear these traits as a badge of honor. You are right, that never happened 15 or so years ago. People in the back (front) of the plane, who had no idea what the fuck was going on, did not yell at people in the front (back) of the plane who did. I like the way Bill handled it. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JeffSkydiver 0 #24 January 19, 2005 Thanks for all your replies. Some of you may have missed the point that I was following instructions when told to wait 5 seconds - I didn't arbitrarily choose that time on my own. Secondly, I was clear that I commenced the count and was myself ready to dive as soon as the last jumper exited. In my case, a 5 second count would really have been a 5 second separation. This was not the case of moving to the door, then commencing the count, then spotting, then climbing out etc etc etc. It was very clear that I was standing in the door ready to dive solo and began the count just when the last jumper exited. I think in this case, there is no giving allowance to the screamers who were afraid that my counting would result in a 20 or 30 second separation. As far as yelling F U or giving the finger etc., not my style. I think I'll just be "deaf" and assume there is no aircraft or premature deployment emergency - a potentially dangerous assumption, I fear. Maybe it should start from the top down. Those of you who read this thread and somewhat agree and are Tandem Masters or Instructors, make a change yourself if need be and begin gently correcting others. If at your DZ you see this problem of unreasonable delay, then hold a class on the topic or post a bulletin at the DZ. Do something about it other than screaming at people who also paid money to be there. On the topic of having paid money to be there: Granted, my $19.00 ride to altitude is not as much as the Tandem passenger paid, but wait - I paid for instruction - twice - static line 23 years ago and AFF last month, bought gear twice and bought over 100 rides to altitude. Not much compared with the sky gods, but compared with the $300 Tandem passenger, I have paid my dues to be in that plane and have a safe skydive - especially when all I was doing was following instructions. Thanks again for your replies, jt* Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DShiznit 0 #25 January 19, 2005 I've jumped at several DZ's and have only encountered this to happen in one place... the largest. I've talked to the GM at the DZ that this happened at and have been told that you are responsible for you. To hell with the others that aren't in the door. You jump when you feel safe. I'm the guy that gives the "yellers" the finger and take my sweet time. Next time I'll try the billvon special. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 1 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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chrisgr 0 #11 January 18, 2005 Good of you to recognize when other jumpers are acting in a safe manner. It is very gratifying when you see people such as the tandem camera-fliers assisting with group separation. Take a moment sometime and tell these people ‘thanks’ and that you appreciated their assistance. Unfortunately, it does not get said enough in our sport. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #12 January 18, 2005 Not that I would ever be one screaming in the plane to GO, but on the flip side if people are taking way too long to get out it can hose everyone else. I realize we can call a go around however we need to get as many out in a single pass and is it fair to the tandem student that just dropped $170 plus on a jump to have to pull higher so the video person can make it back or so we can make it back. I personally feel there is a fine line especially on groups to how long to wait if they wait five seconds to start their climb out and take 10 seconds to get ready that one group just hose everyone. I also find it interesting that the ones that have to pull high if the load is long are the ones that pay the most for the jump. I am not advocating screaming GO, just to point out sometimes there is another reason people may be getting impatient. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #13 January 18, 2005 I agree, the TI's were out of line. However, most people do take too long in the door. Every extra 2-3 seconds from every group in the plane adds up to mean a mile away. Exit seperation as determined by the uppers and jump run direction and ground speed includes your exit count. So if group 1 exits and the count is supposed to be 5, you get to the door, then start counting, then do an exit count, that's an extra 4 seconds. All of that can add up. I've been on some LOOOOOOONG spots due to that. Luckily with a tandem I can make it back from long spots without much worried...unless I have a mal.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chaoskitty 0 #14 January 18, 2005 Probably because about 75% of fun jumpers wouldnt know how to spot and have to rely on the pilot's spot. If you take your time in the door they get nervous. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,406 #15 January 18, 2005 The problem is people who blindly believe the pilot never screws up. I was on a 4-way with a very seasoned RW competitor who stubbornly waited for 20 seconds while TI's were screaming at us before starting the climbout. And you know what? We were STILL so short we barely made the landing area. The pilot had turned on the green at least a mile short of the appropriate point. I also saw an AFFI doing a solo jump, look out the door, then yell up toward the front: "Tell him to look out the left window!!!" The pilot looked out and saw that his jumprun was a MILE North of the arport, so he had to make a 90 degree left turn to even pass over the airport."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
meltdown 0 #16 January 18, 2005 I've been on many loads where a large RW group exiting first don't even start to move to the door until the green light comes on. Then they mosey on back, stick their heads out for a few seconds to spot, and begin climb out, if they feel so inclined. Of course, another 15-20 seconds goes by before they actually get out of the plane. I'm not usually one to yell "GO", but there are times when someone needs a kick in the ass. This assumes an acceptable spot, of course, which you don't always get. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,463 #17 January 18, 2005 >At about "a thousand 2," unknown persons in the plane start screaming, >"GO GO GO GO." This happens to me at Rantoul all the time. I'll be taking up a 6 way, the first group will go, and I'll get in the door to check the spot and wait for a few seconds. Someone will scream "GO!" When I hear that, I take off my helmet and go back to them to see if it really is an emergency or something. Once I determine that they just want me to go faster, I put my helmet back on, get back to the door, check the spot and climb out. It gives me the separation I need, lets me find out if there really is a problem - and is an incentive for them to not scream at me the next time. The only time I've ever heard anyone use that in an emergency was on an Otter I was on. Someone's bag fell out of their container, everyone screamed "GO!" and he started climbing out. The canopy deployed and wrapped around the tail. If they had just closed the door when his bag fell out it would have been a non-incident. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #18 January 18, 2005 Unfortunately sometimes common courtesy and simple ettiquette get lost in the energy and excitement of an open door and a commencement of the exit..... Larger aircraft with " convenient " indicator lights... often cause this situation to be exacerbated.... Red usually means door,,, although depending on who is in the plane,,, ( and their relative "comfort" level..). it can also mean " DOOOOR!!! door door OhMiGod!!!! DOOOOOOR" !! ... as I am sure most of us have witnessed... ... Fact is....it only means,,, begin to prepare for the "ok to spot" light.... which is the GREEN light.... When the green 'lights up'... it means.. LOOK for traffic... Assess the location of the plane relative to the Spot... and IF HAPPY with everything,,, begin the climbout...... NOW.. when there are many many small groups,, or solos,, the T I's should be tuned into this,,, and should remain patient.. If there is only one larger sized group, before the tandems lets say,, then a strung out exit is less likely.... The "tuned in" T Master should not be so harried and hurried that he or She fails to get an idea of the profile of the ENTIRE lift... prior to take off..... Factor in windspeed at ALTITUDE,, and thereby the coressponding GROUND speed of the plane,,, and sometimes even 8 seconds in the door ,, may not be a problem...... A curving jumprun,, ( often executed subconciouslly) by a seasoned jump pilot,,, will often limit the likelihood of Loooog spots,,, anyway... For those who wanna "get out" or "go Go Go " NOW...!!!! suggest that they take a cessna to 3 grand and do just THAT... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #19 January 18, 2005 That is just a little back and forth comaraderie thing. Like when someone says "Who are the Rodriguez Brothers?" or "Rangers lead the way!" you yell back "FVCK the Rodriguez Brothers!" or "All the way!" The response to "GO!" is "FVCK YOU!" At least that's what I always say. Brent ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CieloDiosa 0 #20 January 18, 2005 i totally agree! i hate when people scream "GO!" when i first got off student status, and had around 20 jumps my first few fun jumps were with friends. i was still soo nervous because i no longer had an instructor with me and almost everytime when we would count for separation someone (a TI/video guy) would be yelling "GOOOOOOO!" as if that made me anymore calm one time i was even jumping out with an instructor (same guy as above) to finish my training, and i stumbled on exit so i re-did the count, 'pilot..up..down' but in the middle of my count my instructor was yelling "gooo...go!! GO!" i was soo confused i have it on my training videos, its kind of embarrassing to watch made me look reallll bad and feel pretty dim ~boogie ho!! pull before impact! L.A.S.T#14, PMS #309, Ci EL O DI O SA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #21 January 18, 2005 QuoteExit seperation as determined by the uppers and jump run direction and ground speed includes your exit count Exactly!! If your ground speed is nill due to screaming uppers it may take a good 10 seconds to get the kind of seperation that 5 second in regular wind would give you. Oh the flip side if there are no uppers, or a down wind jump run you might be hauling ass and less than 5 sceonds might work. Most people are thinking if you dont get out in 5 seconds your screwed is what sums it up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #22 January 18, 2005 QuoteWhat are your thoughts? In the UK each jump is assigned a 'jumpmaster'.Usually the most experienced person on the load Although everyone on the load should be aware themselves of the run in, upper and lower winds ( and therefore exit separation) the JM is there to put it all together in terms of exit order, pilot comms etc. I'm very happy at figuring out my own spot, separation (based on winds and whats going on before me) but I still make it a point of always asking the JM what separation they recommend.......if it dont look right at the door I'll wait till it does. I can take care of myself and dont take any shit I am not due....if someone yells aggresively at the door to GO !... and does not have a bloody good reason for it.....they had better land off, and stay off. We all take our turn at the front of the plane......so your last out and the spot might be a little deeper than your optimum spot ??....suck it up and shut it up!!....you'll get your turn at the 'optimum spot' .....This kind of rudeness is totally avoidable and is very off putting to those just doing what the were instructed to do. When its the friendly banter we all do ....thats completel different... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #23 January 18, 2005 As someone mentioned in another thread. It is an example of the "me, me, me" mentality of some of our newer jumpers. They are rude, obnoxious and wear these traits as a badge of honor. You are right, that never happened 15 or so years ago. People in the back (front) of the plane, who had no idea what the fuck was going on, did not yell at people in the front (back) of the plane who did. I like the way Bill handled it. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JeffSkydiver 0 #24 January 19, 2005 Thanks for all your replies. Some of you may have missed the point that I was following instructions when told to wait 5 seconds - I didn't arbitrarily choose that time on my own. Secondly, I was clear that I commenced the count and was myself ready to dive as soon as the last jumper exited. In my case, a 5 second count would really have been a 5 second separation. This was not the case of moving to the door, then commencing the count, then spotting, then climbing out etc etc etc. It was very clear that I was standing in the door ready to dive solo and began the count just when the last jumper exited. I think in this case, there is no giving allowance to the screamers who were afraid that my counting would result in a 20 or 30 second separation. As far as yelling F U or giving the finger etc., not my style. I think I'll just be "deaf" and assume there is no aircraft or premature deployment emergency - a potentially dangerous assumption, I fear. Maybe it should start from the top down. Those of you who read this thread and somewhat agree and are Tandem Masters or Instructors, make a change yourself if need be and begin gently correcting others. If at your DZ you see this problem of unreasonable delay, then hold a class on the topic or post a bulletin at the DZ. Do something about it other than screaming at people who also paid money to be there. On the topic of having paid money to be there: Granted, my $19.00 ride to altitude is not as much as the Tandem passenger paid, but wait - I paid for instruction - twice - static line 23 years ago and AFF last month, bought gear twice and bought over 100 rides to altitude. Not much compared with the sky gods, but compared with the $300 Tandem passenger, I have paid my dues to be in that plane and have a safe skydive - especially when all I was doing was following instructions. Thanks again for your replies, jt* Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DShiznit 0 #25 January 19, 2005 I've jumped at several DZ's and have only encountered this to happen in one place... the largest. I've talked to the GM at the DZ that this happened at and have been told that you are responsible for you. To hell with the others that aren't in the door. You jump when you feel safe. I'm the guy that gives the "yellers" the finger and take my sweet time. Next time I'll try the billvon special. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
