greybeard 0 #1 March 6, 2007 This post is absolutely not meant to attach swoopers. This post is intended to impress upon newer jumpers that, canopy control means, just that, canopy control. The last weekend at my home dz, was buried in twenty to thirty mph ground winds, with gusts to forty. Many jumpers wisely elected not to jump. Many jumpers unwisely thought that they could, with their superior penetrating canopies, overcome the earth's forces and beat mother nature at her own game. Many did, and the show was impressive. However, many more did not, and the show was very impressive and much more entertaining. But to me, the greatest show was put on by CRW fun jumpers, who displayed an uncanny and very different understanding of wind and canopy control. All of the crw experienced pilots, backed their canopies expertly, and sashayed to perfectly controlled touchdowns. The show was amazing. No drama, no panic, no over or under shooting the perfect landing space. Confident and controlled. Amazing. Perhaps, swoopers could learn something from those old CRWDOGS! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 36 #2 March 6, 2007 CRWdogs do know how to fly canopies for sure. But the wisest decision is often spent staying on the ground. I was at a CRW camp in Lake Wales last weekend - most of us had traveled from all over the country/world to be there. Friday the winds were honking. At one point on Friday the winds are blowing, but we were on a call. There were a bunch of us standing around, but no one wanted to be the first to say no. That's why I went to the organizer and told him that the majority of our load wanted to stand down and they were good with that. It was the smart move. Same thing on Saturday - we have people from all over the world here to jump - and Friday was a loss - and we're on the 4th load of the day. The clouds fill in low and the winds are weird, and our load stood down despite desperately wanting to jump. We got 4 jumps in over the long weekend, and we could have gotten more, but I think we made the smart call and kept anyone from getting hurt by just saying no. Sometimes the best canopy control comes by never leaving the ground. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #3 March 6, 2007 QuoteSometimes the best canopy control comes by never leaving the ground. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites D22369 0 #4 March 6, 2007 Perhaps, swoopers could learn something from those old CRWDOGS! *** I agree completely, but would include all jumpers in this statement, CRW will teach more about canopy controll in a few jumps, about what your particular canopy is doing in a certain configuration (*brakes/rear risers/front risers) than can typically be learned in many non CRW jumps I would love it if the uspa would delete the night jump requirement and place a few simple CRW requirements on the D license. RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #5 March 6, 2007 Wendy said it best about staying on the ground. Side note: While the CRWdogs you saw made it back, it's quite common that they land off. Cell phones, credit cards and a good hitchhiking thumb are necessary equipment for CRW. QuoteD22369 I would love it if the uspa would delete the night jump requirement and place a few simple CRW requirements on the D license. -Night jumps I never did understand that requirement for D. -CRW Nah...good, basic idea but if you are talking about actually doing some CRW, then it would be a pain-in-the-ass to get the proper equipment necessary to do it relatively safely. I would not recommend doing CRW with your micro-lined canopy and no hook knife among other things.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dharma1976 0 #6 March 6, 2007 QuotePerhaps, swoopers could learn something from those old CRWDOGS! I did and it made me a better swooper later... My favorite jumps are high speed CRW... Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites klingeme 0 #7 March 6, 2007 Someone once said to me.... Quote"It is better to be on the ground, wishing you were in the air, then to be in the air, and wishing you were on the ground." and I live by this and tell it to all new jumpers wondering if it is too windy for them to jump. Mark Klingelhoefer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #8 March 6, 2007 Quoteand I live by this and tell it to all new jumpers wondering if it is too windy for them to jump. How do you know your limits if you never test them? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DougH 270 #9 March 6, 2007 You build confidence as you go. I don't think the idea is that you never push your limits. For me I go with my gut, if I feel uneasy about something, then my gut is probably right. There are conditions I feel much better jumping in now, that I would have sat down for before."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #10 March 6, 2007 I was in a situation where half the load were either test-dummy or safe-ass. Test-dummies wanted to go, safe-asses wanted the see test-dummies landed first before going. So none was going anywhere.... I have seen "experienced" jumpers sitting in not too bad winds and I sat after having a landing in funny winds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites klingeme 0 #11 March 6, 2007 QuoteQuoteand I live by this and tell it to all new jumpers wondering if it is too windy for them to jump. How do you know your limits if you never test them? There is a difference between pushing the limits and getting in way over your head. It's like saying "I bench press 150lbs, and I think I'm going to try 155." is different than saying " I bench 150 lbs, I'll try 350 this time." One is a growing/learning experience, the other is just plain crazy. Mark Klingelhoefer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hexadecimal 0 #12 March 6, 2007 QuoteThis post is absolutely not meant to attach swoopers. Attach them to what? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,404 #13 March 6, 2007 >How do you know your limits if you never test them? True. Perhaps he could jump in stronger and stronger winds until he breaks his back, then go back to the last jump he landed safely and set that as his limit. Sort of the "Calvin" approach to skydiving safety. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #14 March 6, 2007 QuoteTrue. Perhaps he could jump in stronger and stronger winds until he breaks his back, then go back to the last jump he landed safely and set that as his limit. Sort of the "Calvin" approach to skydiving safety. If you define limit when someone brakes.... it could be the famous Calvin approach. I guess you have done things twice in one occasion: first and last in one try. I would call that as a true limit. Or it could be enough to see someone else doing that . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites D22369 0 #15 March 7, 2007 Nah...good, basic idea but if you are talking about actually doing some CRW, then it would be a pain-in-the-ass to get the proper equipment necessary to do it relatively safely. I would not recommend doing CRW with your micro-lined canopy and no hook knife among other things*** I would never recommend doing high performance CRW definately would recommend at least one hook knifeRoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites greybeard 0 #16 March 7, 2007 Back on point. CRW teaches.............. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites D22369 0 #17 March 7, 2007 CRW teaches.............. *** agreed RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #18 March 7, 2007 Quote...How do you know your limits if you never test them? The winds will test you all on their own...probably when you are least expecting it. Sort of like a Pop Quiz. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #19 March 7, 2007 QuoteThe winds will test you all on their own...probably when you are least expecting it. Sort of like a Pop Quiz. LaughLaughLaugh Sure. Now I have a concept when not to jump, soft and hard limits. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Pulse 0 #20 March 7, 2007 Reminds me of some of my favorite quotes: "Experience gives the test first...the lesson later." "Good judgement comes from experience.....experence comes from poor judgement." It's a tough issue on knowing when and how to test limits. If I were to have not made a jump everytime I had a 'bad feeling' I would've never gotten off student status. If one never gets a 'bad feeling' then they are considered complacent. I know I'm over simplifying. My general guideline concerning safety is: "Everyone always figures it will happen to the other guy. All you have to do is make sure that it does.""Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #21 March 8, 2007 Quote...My general guideline concerning safety is: "Everyone always figures it will happen to the other guy. All you have to do is make sure that it does." I'm going to steal and use that. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kimemerson 7 #22 March 8, 2007 I haven't read everything here... but has anyone mentioned that a good hook and swoop is sometimes the only thing that will get you through winds on landing? That a straight-in approach sometimes won't cut it? And did anyone mention that a good swoop requires good canopy control? That canopy control is controlling the canopy regardless of the meneuver? That CRW, while easily the most education anyone gets on all around canopy control, is mostly (not entirely) about controlling a canopy in association with other canopies in the air, well above the ground, but not always or necessarily about what to do in winds on landing? That that's what we all have in common? Or that the competition swoopers might not agree with the opening suggestion that swooping is not control? So, actually, while "canopy control by definition..." may not be swooping, swooping, by definition, should damn well mean canopy control. Just asking... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #23 March 8, 2007 Quotebut has anyone mentioned that a good hook and swoop is sometimes the only thing that will get you through winds on landing? That a straight-in approach sometimes won't cut it? I disagree.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kimemerson 7 #24 March 8, 2007 JP: You never saw a hooked canopy make it through turbulence when others snapped and waffled? A good swoop, by a knowledeable swoopist ("swoopist?") can absolutely be the one way to cut through garbage or strong winds, while the straight in approach is far more succeptible to them if for no other reason than the fact that they are spending more time in the troublesome winds. I've been watching this since Excaliubur days. True then. Holds true now - even more so. Do you disagree with the comment 100% or with the "sometimes"? I mean, "sometimes" implies not always and I used the word very intentionally, to allow that buffer, to separate skill from luck and skill from nature. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CanuckInUSA 0 #25 March 8, 2007 If you are referring to set “swoopists” (LOL …) who are flying cross-braced canopies, don’t forget that these cross-braced canopies are far more rigid than their non cross-braced cousins and this helps them cut through (dare I say) crappy turbulent air easier. But if there is so much crappy air up there, let’s not forget the saying: “It’s better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than to be in the air wishing you were on the ground”. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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D22369 0 #4 March 6, 2007 Perhaps, swoopers could learn something from those old CRWDOGS! *** I agree completely, but would include all jumpers in this statement, CRW will teach more about canopy controll in a few jumps, about what your particular canopy is doing in a certain configuration (*brakes/rear risers/front risers) than can typically be learned in many non CRW jumps I would love it if the uspa would delete the night jump requirement and place a few simple CRW requirements on the D license. RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #5 March 6, 2007 Wendy said it best about staying on the ground. Side note: While the CRWdogs you saw made it back, it's quite common that they land off. Cell phones, credit cards and a good hitchhiking thumb are necessary equipment for CRW. QuoteD22369 I would love it if the uspa would delete the night jump requirement and place a few simple CRW requirements on the D license. -Night jumps I never did understand that requirement for D. -CRW Nah...good, basic idea but if you are talking about actually doing some CRW, then it would be a pain-in-the-ass to get the proper equipment necessary to do it relatively safely. I would not recommend doing CRW with your micro-lined canopy and no hook knife among other things.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #6 March 6, 2007 QuotePerhaps, swoopers could learn something from those old CRWDOGS! I did and it made me a better swooper later... My favorite jumps are high speed CRW... Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
klingeme 0 #7 March 6, 2007 Someone once said to me.... Quote"It is better to be on the ground, wishing you were in the air, then to be in the air, and wishing you were on the ground." and I live by this and tell it to all new jumpers wondering if it is too windy for them to jump. Mark Klingelhoefer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #8 March 6, 2007 Quoteand I live by this and tell it to all new jumpers wondering if it is too windy for them to jump. How do you know your limits if you never test them? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #9 March 6, 2007 You build confidence as you go. I don't think the idea is that you never push your limits. For me I go with my gut, if I feel uneasy about something, then my gut is probably right. There are conditions I feel much better jumping in now, that I would have sat down for before."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #10 March 6, 2007 I was in a situation where half the load were either test-dummy or safe-ass. Test-dummies wanted to go, safe-asses wanted the see test-dummies landed first before going. So none was going anywhere.... I have seen "experienced" jumpers sitting in not too bad winds and I sat after having a landing in funny winds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
klingeme 0 #11 March 6, 2007 QuoteQuoteand I live by this and tell it to all new jumpers wondering if it is too windy for them to jump. How do you know your limits if you never test them? There is a difference between pushing the limits and getting in way over your head. It's like saying "I bench press 150lbs, and I think I'm going to try 155." is different than saying " I bench 150 lbs, I'll try 350 this time." One is a growing/learning experience, the other is just plain crazy. Mark Klingelhoefer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hexadecimal 0 #12 March 6, 2007 QuoteThis post is absolutely not meant to attach swoopers. Attach them to what? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,404 #13 March 6, 2007 >How do you know your limits if you never test them? True. Perhaps he could jump in stronger and stronger winds until he breaks his back, then go back to the last jump he landed safely and set that as his limit. Sort of the "Calvin" approach to skydiving safety. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #14 March 6, 2007 QuoteTrue. Perhaps he could jump in stronger and stronger winds until he breaks his back, then go back to the last jump he landed safely and set that as his limit. Sort of the "Calvin" approach to skydiving safety. If you define limit when someone brakes.... it could be the famous Calvin approach. I guess you have done things twice in one occasion: first and last in one try. I would call that as a true limit. Or it could be enough to see someone else doing that . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
D22369 0 #15 March 7, 2007 Nah...good, basic idea but if you are talking about actually doing some CRW, then it would be a pain-in-the-ass to get the proper equipment necessary to do it relatively safely. I would not recommend doing CRW with your micro-lined canopy and no hook knife among other things*** I would never recommend doing high performance CRW definately would recommend at least one hook knifeRoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
greybeard 0 #16 March 7, 2007 Back on point. CRW teaches.............. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
D22369 0 #17 March 7, 2007 CRW teaches.............. *** agreed RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #18 March 7, 2007 Quote...How do you know your limits if you never test them? The winds will test you all on their own...probably when you are least expecting it. Sort of like a Pop Quiz. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #19 March 7, 2007 QuoteThe winds will test you all on their own...probably when you are least expecting it. Sort of like a Pop Quiz. LaughLaughLaugh Sure. Now I have a concept when not to jump, soft and hard limits. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pulse 0 #20 March 7, 2007 Reminds me of some of my favorite quotes: "Experience gives the test first...the lesson later." "Good judgement comes from experience.....experence comes from poor judgement." It's a tough issue on knowing when and how to test limits. If I were to have not made a jump everytime I had a 'bad feeling' I would've never gotten off student status. If one never gets a 'bad feeling' then they are considered complacent. I know I'm over simplifying. My general guideline concerning safety is: "Everyone always figures it will happen to the other guy. All you have to do is make sure that it does.""Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #21 March 8, 2007 Quote...My general guideline concerning safety is: "Everyone always figures it will happen to the other guy. All you have to do is make sure that it does." I'm going to steal and use that. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kimemerson 7 #22 March 8, 2007 I haven't read everything here... but has anyone mentioned that a good hook and swoop is sometimes the only thing that will get you through winds on landing? That a straight-in approach sometimes won't cut it? And did anyone mention that a good swoop requires good canopy control? That canopy control is controlling the canopy regardless of the meneuver? That CRW, while easily the most education anyone gets on all around canopy control, is mostly (not entirely) about controlling a canopy in association with other canopies in the air, well above the ground, but not always or necessarily about what to do in winds on landing? That that's what we all have in common? Or that the competition swoopers might not agree with the opening suggestion that swooping is not control? So, actually, while "canopy control by definition..." may not be swooping, swooping, by definition, should damn well mean canopy control. Just asking... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #23 March 8, 2007 Quotebut has anyone mentioned that a good hook and swoop is sometimes the only thing that will get you through winds on landing? That a straight-in approach sometimes won't cut it? I disagree.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kimemerson 7 #24 March 8, 2007 JP: You never saw a hooked canopy make it through turbulence when others snapped and waffled? A good swoop, by a knowledeable swoopist ("swoopist?") can absolutely be the one way to cut through garbage or strong winds, while the straight in approach is far more succeptible to them if for no other reason than the fact that they are spending more time in the troublesome winds. I've been watching this since Excaliubur days. True then. Holds true now - even more so. Do you disagree with the comment 100% or with the "sometimes"? I mean, "sometimes" implies not always and I used the word very intentionally, to allow that buffer, to separate skill from luck and skill from nature. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #25 March 8, 2007 If you are referring to set “swoopists” (LOL …) who are flying cross-braced canopies, don’t forget that these cross-braced canopies are far more rigid than their non cross-braced cousins and this helps them cut through (dare I say) crappy turbulent air easier. But if there is so much crappy air up there, let’s not forget the saying: “It’s better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than to be in the air wishing you were on the ground”. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
