Should minimum recommendations apply to you?

[diablopilot 2]

I have called the ambulance for more than one "exceptional person".


Now, if after exhausting all possible means of education, advice, and persuasion, I cannot get the individual to check their behavior, I usually make note of the color of their breakaway handle, and let them see me do so.

When they ask what's up, I tell em I just wanna make sure which one to pull when I step over their body to collect my new canopy.

Lisa, those that are headstrong an below the minimums are always going to try to push them, and those that do not see how trends and incidents start will help them. Just because you've seen death and injury before, means nothing to either person, because they deceased/injured obviously didn't have the "right stuff" to borrow a phrase.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[bob.dino 0]

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I believe in demonstrated ability as an indicator for advancement. Jump numbers alone indicate very little.

How do you propose to test for judgment and calmness under pressure when things go wrong?

[diablopilot 2]

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Is 40 "big"?

40 is big if you've never done a 10 way.

40 way belly is big if you've got less than 50 jumps on your belly.

40 is big if you haven't jumped in 2 years.

it depends on your perspective.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[happythoughts 0]

No. I am special.

I purchased a t-shirt that proclaims that I have "Mad Skillz". I make my own rules.

[DSE 3]

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I questioned myself if the wingsuit had anything to do with this incident. No AAD. No audible. Hit the ground without deploying the main or the reserve.

You're not serious, right? Read that thread very carefully. Extremely experienced people offering valuable commentary.
An AAD may or may not have been valuable. An audible can't pull.
Speculation is easy.
Would 200, 500, 1000 jumps have made the difference? Probably, possibly.
With 30 minutes in the sport, you simply don't know what you don't know.
A wingsuit skydive isn't just another skydive, any more than a camera skydive isn't just another skydive, any more than a big way, raft, skyball, or other skydive isn't just another skydive. The more time in the sport, the more you become aware of what's going on, and the more air-aware you become. The more aware you are, the more you're able to cope with new experiences on the skydive.
If nothing else is crystal clear by reading these forums, it's experiences are what help you survive when things go bad.

[hjumper33 0]

I really like the idea of competence over experience. Like the tunnel instructor who was not allowed to freefly at a dz because he had less than 100 jumps, but something like 200+ hours of tunnel time. Just as less than 100 jumps does not make you a retard, 500 jumps does not make you a god. You want to do something, prove to the man in charge that you can do it. When you demo a smaller canopy, PD calls your S&TA, they dont say, oh you have 500 jumps, you must be bad ass, do whatever you want. There are exceptions to all rules, but have an independent reliable source evaluate if you are ready to bend some of the minimums. I did my wingsuiting a bit early, but had the best and most thorough training available. Never say, this doesnt apply to me because im..... Look at your own skills, make a decision, then have someone way better look at your skills, and have them help you come to a fully informed and competent decision. Minimums can help you understand that an activity is dangerous, but meeting them wont always keep you from dying.

[NWFlyer 2]

He's asking questions. Give the guy a break. He didn't say "Oh, it's totally obvious that this was the cause and here's why." He asked about whether his first instinct made sense.

If I had 39 jumps and read that incident thread I wouldn't have a fucking clue what to think. I wouldn't have a clue how to interpret what's in there. Because in that thread we have a whole wide variety of opinions from people with a lot of experience. When I read the beginning of the thread last night, I thought pretty much what you've said in your post. I still think that, but if I were a brand-new skydiver trying to make sense of it, the discussion in the thread that's come out since the basic facts were presented might cause me to be more confused.

"With 30 minutes in the sport, you simply don't know what you don't know."

And with one year in the sport, you simply don't know what you don't know. You've racked up a lot of jumps in a short time and I wonder if you realize exactly how ironic that statement of yours is.

At three years in the sport, I don't know what I don't know. That's one of the many reasons I push my envelope very gently.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[DSE 3]

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I really like the idea of competence over experience. Like the tunnel instructor who was not allowed to freefly at a dz because he had less than 100 jumps, but something like 200+ hours of tunnel time. .

While for the most part I agree, this tunnel guru learned that tunnel experience is not skydiving experience. The video has since been removed.
Experience overall can't be replaced with anything but.....experience, IMO. It is true that the learning curve for skydiving today is ridiculously faster than it used to be, thanks to DZ.com, video, skydivemovies.com, books, better teaching programs, etc. Repetition however, plays a big role in anything. Skydiving or otherwise.

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Minimums can help you understand that an activity is dangerous, but meeting them wont always keep you from dying.

Very true, just as true as not meeting them increases the incident risk factor.

[stratostar 5]

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No. I am special. &I make my own rules.

(sarcasm) Oh you too. I think we should just toss out the rulebook (SIMS) it should be a free for all. If you want to do camera jumps with 3 jumps go for it, wingsuit @ 20 jumps have at it, I don't know why we even waste the time and money to get a license or ratings in the first place or be forced to join a org. that clearly looks out for the "insiders".

No but really there seems to be those who feel the BSR's or FAR's only apply to a select few, but not to them or their buddys. ( Just the rest of us) Maybe their one of the "special peeps". You can seek out all the glory awards and power trip seats, help make up the BSR's those "un-special peeps" are to follow and then do as you please. If someone calls "foulball" on ya, hell you don't even get a slap on the wrist under todays current "in house" clean up service, just a scolding saying be a good boy or girl for 90 days or so and then we'll let you back to handing out the ratings and telling everyone else what they can and can't do, but in the mean time keep on keeping on as before, but be a little more low profile.

The sooner everyone else wises up and starts to demand the higher ups do as they were elected or issued ratings to do and enforce the current rules when people get busted, that would be the BOD, Safety & training commitee, RD's, DZO's,IE's, CD's S&TA's, & instructors then it will be easier for everyone to speak up and say that is bullshit dude your not jumping____________________ what ever here with XXXX jumps or busting the BSR's cuz your a well liked "special one". Or we can all just say fuck it and stick your friken rulebook where the sun don't shine, after all if only a few people are required to follow the BSR's and the "special one's" can do as they please, then everyone should be able to do whatever they want to do as well, right?

Nothing worse then when those in charge of deciding what the minimum requirements are in the book are the ones who decide to pick and choose what one apply to them (like age requirements or wavers and the like) and yet enforce all the minimum requirements and other standards on the rest of us as they see fit.

I vote for the free for all, just don't bust the FAR's, they are law and that will keep the FAA off our backs. Other wise do whatever the hell you want to do and tell people who butt in to mind their business!

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Tonto 1]

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Incorrect.

You have to satisfy your instructor before moving on a level in AFF.

You have to demonstrate certain skills before getting the various licenses.

You generally have to be recommended on the basis on proven performance in smaller ways before being allowed on a big-way. Just telling a big way organizer that you have 3,000 jumps will get you nowhere without a recommendation.

No.

You have to satisfy your instructor and have completed the dive succesfully before moving on a level in AFF.

You have to demonstrate certain skills and complete the minimum number of dives before getting the various licenses.

It's skills AND jump numbers.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[pilotdave 0]

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I questioned myself if the wingsuit had anything to do with this incident. No AAD. No audible. Hit the ground without deploying the main or the reserve.

You're not serious, right?

I don't think he's so off the mark. Nobody has any idea why that accident happened. The fact that he was jumping a wingsuit with less than the recommended minimum number of jumps MAY have been a contributing factor. But NOBODY knows. If the accident makes less experienced jumpers think twice before trying to push their limits, great. But saying that the wingsuit CAUSED the accident is nothing but speculation.

Dave

[popsjumper 2]

Minimum recommendations DO apply to everyone.

It's the "holier than thou" who seem to think not.

Ignorant rants about "not about jump numbers" ignore the experience factor in the equation and only serve to promote the "I'm so special" mindset.

So, you think Jumper A is ready for it at 50 jumps and you encourage him to blow off the recommendations and go for it? Jumpers B, C and D see this and get it their minds that they too are "special" when in reality they are not. What do you think has a highly increased chance of happening to Jumpers B, C and D?

If you're going to screw up...do it on the side of safety.

OTOH, do away with all rules and recommendations. Anarchy is a good thing, right? Maybe the idiots will weed themselves out before the FFA shuts us down completely.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[rehmwa 2]

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> Just telling a big way organizer that you have 3,000 jumps will
> get you nowhere without a recommendation.

Depends on the bigway! I've gotten onto a lot of 40 ways by just mentioning I had 4000 jumps. Of course, for World Team they're going to be more selective.

I've been on 2 and 3 ship ways (40 to 60) where that was that criteria for many of the jumpers. We've never completed point #1 on these. These were the least successful jumps I've ever had the pleasure to watch. Some of the things that go on during one of these jumps can be about the funniest stuff ever. I don't participate in these any more unless there's a compelling reason - case in point at Couch Freaks - a 44 way for a friend's birthday jump. The last few years, I've declined, but this was a friend. We built the base and the first layer but didn't even get past 16 people. A single player docked and sank out and drug out a VERY experience big way flyer (who was doing everything right). Non-experience tends to result in people hanging once they dock instead of continuing to fly. And them landing on each other (followed by them blaming the other guy). But, a good funnel is a thing of beauty (from the outside).

When they've been invites and known jumpers, they've been successful after 1 or 3 tries.

No exceptions so far in either scenario.

(Edit: "Just mentioning you have 4000 jumps" riiiiiiight

organizer "who else wants to go?"
BV "I'd like to"
organizer "how many jumps ya got?"
BV "4000" (Story could end here)

the rest of the story....

organizer "sounds good, any big way experience"
BV "a couple world records, good friends with .........., done the AZ invites the last 6 years, yadda, yadda, yadda, yadda.........."

organizer "OK, you're in"

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[hackish 8]

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I questioned myself if the wingsuit had anything to do with this incident. No AAD. No audible. Hit the ground without deploying the main or the reserve.

You're not serious, right? Read that thread very carefully. Extremely experienced people offering valuable commentary.
An AAD may or may not have been valuable. An audible can't pull.

I am seldom not serious when I ask questions like this. Some people add valuable details others just sit back telling me I'm an idiot who doesn't know what he's asking questions about. By definition that's why I ask questions. Facts are helpful but your commentary about how little I know seldom is.

As for the incident thread there are now 3 more pages of comments. I'll start another thread about an idea it spawned about AAD activation. Could any of the AAD or audible helped? I wouldn't trust my life to an audible nor would I completely trust my life to an AAD pulling for me but I'll trust that they could both improve my chances.

-Michael

[d123 1]

Hi Hackish,

Cypres might not fire in a wing suit jump.

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For some activities, the Speed CYPRES may not
be suitable. For instance, already the Expert CYPRES
might not activate during a wingsuit jump in certain
situations because the vertical speed is too low, there
are far less chances that a Speed CYPRES will. There
might be more situations.

http://www.cypres2.com/userguide/CYPRES_2_users_guide_english.pdf

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[quade 3]

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I wouldn't trust my life to an audible nor would I completely trust my life to an AAD pulling for me but I'll trust that they could both improve my chances.

-Michael

In no situation should you EVER be unaware of your altitude. This is not to say that you'll always know precisely you're at 5200 rather than 5300 feet, but pull time is pull time and if you go below that you've seriously fucked up.

Let's me requote something you just said;

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. . . nor would I completely trust my life to an AAD pulling for me . . .

Really? I wouldn't trust it at all. Ever.

The only reason I have an AAD is on the off chance I ever become completely incapable of pulling for myself, it -may- save my life.

Other than that, I don't trust it to ever do anything.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[hackish 8]

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Hi Hackish,

Cypres might not fire in a wing suit jump.

Quote

For some activities, the Speed CYPRES may not
be suitable. For instance, already the Expert CYPRES
might not activate during a wingsuit jump in certain
situations because the vertical speed is too low, there
are far less chances that a Speed CYPRES will. There
might be more situations.

http://www.cypres2.com/userguide/CYPRES_2_users_guide_english.pdf

I didn't want to pollute this discussion with something off topic so I posted up my AAD idea here.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2967089;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

Just to clarify not trusting something to save my life what I mean is that I'm not going to fly at the ground and let the AAD pull for me. For the record when I get my own rig I'll be getting an AAD and a skyhook or RSL.

-Michael

[gemini 0]

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Formation loads are big-ways,....

Hooha....I did an 8-way big way out of two cessna's!

Blue skies,

Jim

[DSE 3]

Since I took this off-topic in my response to your post about a wingsuit not playing a role in the referred to incident...I'll attempt to bring the thread back to topic.

Yes, I believe minimums should apply. No, I don't think we need greater regulation. But we do need to take harder lines in enforcing the minimums we have. They are after all, minimums.
The industry has created downsizing charts as one example. They're often ignored. In many incidents, downsizing criteria have not been met by jump numbers nor with demonstration of skill. Does anyone really believe Brian Germain, PD, or anyone else does this as an exercise?

The same can be said for just about any sort of skydive, although canopy downsizing and hook turns seem to be the most common incident causes (outside of this year), and therefore are likely the most ignored minimums.
As mentioned before, the learning curve in this sport seems to have significantly flattened, based on discussions with folks that have been around for years. However, books, videos, tunneltime, access to information via various websites...none of these are substitutes for experience. In my own progression, I can think of two or three experiences that I wasn't necessarily ready to have at the time, even though I felt I was. And as much as I hated waiting to wear a camera, now that I've got nearly 500 camera jumps, I wonder if I'm qualified even now.
Although it's knee-jerk, I'm of the opinion that some disciplines in the sport should require X number of coach jumps, in a manner similar to AFF.

[skybytch 259]

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Minimums can help you understand that an activity is dangerous, but meeting them wont always keep you from dying.

True. The only thing that will keep you from dying is good judgement.

There are a couple of ways to develop good judgement. One is to survive bad judgement (in other words, your bag of luck didn't run out before your bag of skill got full). imho, this method is not preferable as it tends to encourage the development of complacency - if I've survived doing something 10 times, I'm more likely to think I'm going to survive every time in the future.

The other is to listen to those who have either survived it without becoming complacent or have watched and learned from others who didn't survive it. This is where listening to what people with craploads of experience/years in the sport have to say about what you are thinking about doing.

It can be tough to figure out who to listen to. But when more highly experienced people are saying something is not a good idea than are saying it is, good judgement is shown by choosing to follow the conservative advice.

[kallend 1,634]

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Incorrect.

You have to satisfy your instructor before moving on a level in AFF.

You have to demonstrate certain skills before getting the various licenses.
_________________________________________________

Seems to me that someone disregarding minimum experience levels is often the type of person who wouldn't be bothered with licences.

.

In that case, why would she be bothered with any other minimum requirements, such as for WS jumps? It's irrelevant what rules you make for people who don't obey rules. Yours is a self-defeating argument.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,634]

Quote

Quote

Incorrect.

You have to satisfy your instructor before moving on a level in AFF.

You have to demonstrate certain skills before getting the various licenses.

You generally have to be recommended on the basis on proven performance in smaller ways before being allowed on a big-way. Just telling a big way organizer that you have 3,000 jumps will get you nowhere without a recommendation.

No.

You have to satisfy your instructor and have completed the dive succesfully before moving on a level in AFF.

You have to demonstrate certain skills and complete the minimum number of dives before getting the various licenses.

It's skills AND jump numbers.

t

The purpose of my post was to counter Beowulf's claim that it's impossible objectively to determine skills. Your additions do nothing to make my statement incorrect. We objectively determine skills at all levels of skydiving.

Which do you consider more important, skills or jump numbers?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[hackish 8]

If you look at the licensing progression it calls for whatever license to participate in this or what. It also requires specific skydiving and canopy skills to be accomplished and signed off. For example I can't do a snow jump or a night jump on my S license. I'm also not allowed to do any relative work unless it's a C2 on the RW portion of my "A". I'm sure in the US you have similar requirements.

Why not then have specific CoPs necessary for camera work, wingsuit or whatever?

-Michael

[kallend 1,634]

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If you look at the licensing progression it calls for whatever license to participate in this or what. It also requires specific skydiving and canopy skills to be accomplished and signed off. For example I can't do a snow jump or a night jump on my S license. I'm also not allowed to do any relative work unless it's a C2 on the RW portion of my "A". I'm sure in the US you have similar requirements.

Why not then have specific CoPs necessary for camera work, wingsuit or whatever?

-Michael

Because it's a change from the status quo, and lots of people, even skydivers, dislike change especially if it involves any effort on their part.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[DSE 3]

Quote

If you look at the licensing progression it calls for whatever license to participate in this or what. It also requires specific skydiving and canopy skills to be accomplished and signed off. For example I can't do a snow jump or a night jump on my S license. I'm also not allowed to do any relative work unless it's a C2 on the RW portion of my "A". I'm sure in the US you have similar requirements.

Why not then have specific CoPs necessary for camera work, wingsuit or whatever?

-Michael

If it's camera work for tandems, I agree, as other individuals are part of the skydive. For everything else...not a bad idea (nor an original one) but it would just be another rubber stamp the DZ would need, and depending on "whose yer buddy" and "he's a jerk," would determine who gets the stamp.