USPA Group Membership

[tdog 0]

Hooknswoop posted a thread a few days ago that suggested the USPA group membership program be eliminated and replaced with a DZ Inspection program. Hoping not to put words in his mouth, the USPA would basically endorse DZs that were inspected and found to meet safety requirements. Maybe they have to provide aircraft maintenance records, pilot training records, injury analysis, gear rental availability, instructors per student ratios - and scored "pass" or "fail" or on an point scale. DZs would compete for the coveted 5 star "good housekeeping seal of approval." Part of the scoring could even be "acceptable marketing practices".

There is a Skyride settlement thread where people are posting similar comments - and frustrated that the USPA would endorse a DZ they don't appreciate.

Almost everyone I talk to seems to believe the Group Membership program simply puts the USPA in conflict of interest with it's membership body.

Some would argue that the USPA should represent skydivers, and we need representation not only with the FAA, but with the DZOs who maintain the aircraft, etc.

Some would argue the USPA, thru the group membership program, grows our sport and provides assets to the DZs where we jump.

Well, we are the members. So voice your word. Perhaps the elected officials will read.

[Amazon 7]

AT this point I think USPA needs to go away... there should NEVER be another DZO on the BOD at the very least... and I dont care HOW much they have done for the sport.. what they did in this instance makes the whole group making the decisions a bunch of hypocrites when they blabber on about ethics in their post on their website.

[tdog 0]

Lets keep the voting to more global issues and not let the Skyride passion and energy influence this decision (more than it should)...

This is more than Skyride.

[jumper03 0]

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Lets keep the voting to more global issues and not let the Skyride passion and energy influence this decision (more than it should)...

This is more than Skyride.

yep. my big beef with USPA was the change in the AFF program. They lowered the standards because not enough instructors were making it through.

At least to me that seems like another USPA/DZO conflict of interest.

I'm going to renew my USPA membership so I can vote and you better believe my regional director is going to get an earful from me.

Scars remind us that the past is real

[billvon 2,434]

>DZs would compete for the coveted 5 star "good housekeeping seal of approval."

The one problem I see with this is student training. Why would _any_ DZ bother to comply with student training guidelines? After all, a student who goes to a Skyride site isn't going to care a bit about whether it gets five stars or not. Skyride could say "well, we give this non-USPA DZ the Skyride SIX STAR seal of approval!" And students would go there, because they're 'better.'

The one lever they have now is instructor certification, enforced (barely) through the group membership program. Take away that, and why would you ever use certified instructors, or anything like a syllabus based AFF program? Noncertified AFF-I's and tandem masters will be cheaper to use and easier to find. The "USPA inspector" could wag his finger menacingly, and give them the dreaded 1 star "dismal student program" rating - but again, why would any experienced jumper care about the student program, and how would students find out?

The annoying part about USPA (that you have to belong to jump at USPA DZ's) is also one of the few strengths it has when it comes to enforcing what rules they have, as ineffective as they sometimes are. Make it optional, and I fear that all the things that Derek quit the sport over will get worse, not better.

[Hooknswoop 19]

The GM program isn’t going away.

The GM program is a direct conflict of interest with the membership. You can see the GM application here: http://www.uspa.org/publications/form.pdf/GM_Initial%20App_01_07.pdf

Applicants agree to meet certain standards. If they fail to meet these standards, their GM membership ‘may’ be revoked. As the recent skyride fiasco demonstrates, this is a toothless claim. In reality, DZ’s fail to meet these standards all the time without USPA taking any action. When the DZO is the RD or S & TA, or even when they are not, they hold all the power at their DZ. If you stand up for change or even question when the GM standards are not being met, you may be invited to leave the DZ, forever. Think your peers will support you? Think again. Your peers will no more support your voice than a meth addict will call the police on their dealer if their dealer is beating up an old lady and taking her purse. Your peers will, in fact, treat you like a leper.

USPA doesn’t make the rules or enforce them, DZO’s do that.

The number of skydivers that realize how the system operates are outnumber, by far, by the number that don’t realize it, realize it and don’t care, or are living in denial. This will continue since jumpers for change will leave the sport or quit the cause after a short time as they realize their efforts are doomed to failure. The status quo will continue.

First jump students view the GM membership as a seal of approval. They have no way to know any better. DZ web pages tout their membership as a seal of approval. I can send in $100 and be a GM. DZ’s have used the GM membership as a way of selling their DZ over their competition, “We are a USPA GM DZ. This means we have to follow minimum safety standards. DZ XYZ is not a GM and therefore do not have to meet these safety requirements.” To a student, that carries weight and sounds like a good reason to pick the GM DZ over the non GM DZ. The reality of the situation is that GM;s DZ’s are not any safer and in some cases, less safe than non-GM DZ’s. USPA is fully aware of this and counts on it to sell GM to DZ’s. What does USPA get out of the deal? DZ’s require their jumpers to be USPA members. DZ’s pay less than $40/month and members pick up the rest of the tab.

The skyride debacle demonstrates that the GM is a liability in addition to the program being a sham on the first place. Ironic. One scam claiming to be ethical suing another scam that claims to only allow ethical DZ’s to be members.

USPA does not serve the members that pay the dues. USPA serves DZO’s. “What is good for DZ’s is good for jumpers.” USPA exists because of the membership dues they collect, which are required to be paid by the DZO’s which control USPA. I suppose a quick fix would be to drop individual memberships and replace it with an increase in jump ticket prices with that increase going to the USPA. Then USPA would be an obvious trade organization, not a trade organization in a member organization’s clothing.

Even if members were to realize all this and decide that change is needed, there are several major obstacles. Jumpers are pathetic about this sort of thing. They will pay their $50/year without worrying about it too much and go jump. As long as they can jump, they don’t really care if all the above is true. They don’t care if USPA doesn’t serve their needs, but the needs of the DZO’s. They will tolerate almost anything, anything except being told they can’t jump.

I recently had a discussion with a well-known jumper about getting rid of the GM and replacing it with a DZ inspection program, something useful to first time through highly experienced jumpers. His thoughts are that the DZ he does most of his jumps at is OK, so why change anything? Why make a change that won’t affect him, even if it forces less than ethical DZO’s to improve their lot and rewards those that already take care of safety issues?

Another example of USPA serving DZ’s and not its members was the lowering of the AFFI standards during the Instructor shortage in 2001. The pass rate went from 50% to 85% overnight. Of all the possible solutions for solving the Instructor shortage problem, lowering the course standards was probably the worst solution. The reasons for the shortage was not the course, it was Instructor recruiting and retention. The same problem the military faces and when they tried to lower the minimum new recruit standards, they took a lot of heat for it. Bonus’s and benefits for new recruits and better pay and treatment for current military members was a much better and better-receipted methods. The problem is two-fold. USPA is controlled by DZO’s. DZO’s make their money per AFF jump, not for the quality of the instruction received on that jump. They make more money with poor AFFI’s since the student is more likely to have to repeat levels with poor instruction. USPA could have recommended better pay and benefits for Instructors. But why would DZO’s cut their profits margins? They want to keep Instructors as cheap labor, easy to replace, without DZ liability if they are hurt and cannot work, and prevent them from organizing to get the pay and benefits they deserve. USPA is ideally positioned to serve the Instructors it certifies needs, but again, since USPA isn’t “you”, it is DZO’s, that will not happen.

There are simply too many things that would have to change before USPA stopped serving DZO’s and started serving its members and apathetic jumpers will never force those changes by voting with their money. Jumpers will continue to jump and USPA will continue to be a DZO organization. Either accept it for how it is and jump out of airplanes, or quit. If you do quit, as I did, realize that it won’t make a difference either. Things are not going to change for the better.

Personally, I have given up hope of ever skydiving again. Working at a wind tunnel, BASE, and an odd bandit jump every now and then will have to suffice. I refuse to work for or give my money to DZ’s and help perpetuate the status quo. When people ask why I don’t jump anymore, I just tell them I don’t like DZ’s. I won’t go any further than that since skydivers tend to get mad at me if I do get into specifics.

Derek

[stratostar 5]

Very well put.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[tdog 0]

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The GM program isn’t going away.

Don't be so sure. It is amazing who e-mailed me and PMed me already. People who, just might have a vote or two. Or people who are willing to stop by and personally visit.

BTW. I was just asking questions - at this point - I am not the catalyst for change.
The opinion(s) of the people who have sent me private messages:

1) USPA does not respect the internet as a viable source of public opinion.

2) USPA will not react to what is posted here.

3) Many, many, many e-mails will have to be sent to the elected representatives to get enough critical mass.

So - the next step. Before we all go writing letters... What do we write? (I am not going to put words into your mouth, but, some kind of vision is necessary)

You can reply to this thread with ideas.

Here are the questions:

1) If the USPA changed to a "DZ Inspection Program", what criteria would be required to be inspected?

2) Who would do the inspections?

3) What relationship should the USPA/DZs have?

4) Should someone with financial interest in a DZ be a BOD?

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Things are not going to change for the better

Well, we can hope, can't we?

[tdog 0]

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Make it optional, and I fear that all the things that Derek quit the sport over will get worse, not better.

I look at the www.USGBC.org model for certifying buildings as being "LEED Green".

The ratings are now coveted by building owners trying to sell their projects to potential tenants.


The model works like this.

There are 5 or so "areas" - from energy use to availability of mass transit.

Each area has "prerequisites" that are absolutely required.

Each area has "points" for other items that the landlord may or may not implement.

There is a point scale that allows the buildings to earn "silver", "gold" and "platinum".

This model could work perfect for the "revamped" group membership/DZ inspection program.

Maybe the USPA Group Member Inspection Program goes like this:

PREREQUISITES
* Instructors with ratings
* Jumpers are USPA members
* BSR followed

POINTS TO EARN
* DZ provides complete maintenance log of aircraft. Log must be audited by a 3rd party as complete, accurate, and appropriate. Maybe canceled checks and invoices for parts must be attached?
* DZ provides complete training log of pilots, including syllabus, continuing education, and ground and air hours of education completed.
* DZ, if equipped with rigging loft, provides continuing education requirements for riggers.
* DZ provides complete emergency aircraft action plan.
* DZ provides complete skydive injury emergency action plan.
* DZ provides procedures for counting canopies/making sure every soul is counted upon landing.
* DZ participation in safety day
* DZ participation in 'innovative safety programs'
* DZ's submittal of accident reports, even for minor injuries
* DZ's published landing pattern, landing rules, landing area photos.
* DZ's published jump run procedures, exit order, exit separation techniques.
* DZ provides maintenance log of tandem and student rigs, with points deducted for age and number of jumps on assembly regardless of maintenance, points added for detailed preventive maintenance programs.
* DZ provides continuing education (drill jumps/'safety meetings' in tunnel speak) for instructors
* DZ's marketing materials meet truth in advertising criteria
* Number of new USPA members that claim the DZ to be their home - by a ratio of 'seat miles' (or in dz terms, 'seat loads') flown.


The DZ, if meeting the pre-requsites, can be a "basic member". Once earning points, can be "certified as a Platinum DZ".

The USPA site would have an up to date matrix of each DZ and which points earned.

The DZs would have to pay for the USPA to do a serious audit of the paperwork. $1000 per DZ, 50 DZs = $50,000. That would pay a part time person at the USPA to spend 20 hours per DZ to review and audit the paperwork, with enough money to pay airfare to do 10 spot, surprise, audits of DZs thru the year to keep DZOs knowing pencil whipping the application packet is not acceptable. Yes, this person would be the "bad cop"... "Hey DZO. I will be at your DZ on Monday. I will need these peices of information, and I will want to discuss with your instructors the continuing education you gave them."

Maybe the USPA raises dues $2 per person. That would also pay for this. I would pay $2. Or, just don't send me Parachutist one month instead.

[kallend 1,648]

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Quote

Lets keep the voting to more global issues and not let the Skyride passion and energy influence this decision (more than it should)...

This is more than Skyride.

yep. my big beef with USPA was the change in the AFF program. They lowered the standards because not enough instructors were making it through.

At least to me that seems like another USPA/DZO conflict of interest.

I'm going to renew my USPA membership so I can vote and you better believe my regional director is going to get an earful from me.

Have there been many (or any) incidents that could be attributed to the change in AFF certification?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jumper03 0]

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Have there been many (or any) incidents that could be attributed to the change in AFF certification?

Now that is a very good question to which I do not have an answer. I'm not even sure how you would collect the data or what we would be looking for.

In general however, I am firmly against lowering standards so that more students get through. (in this case students = aff instructor candidates)

I think another good question would be - why were the standards lowered in the first place? I know we have our pet reasons, but was there an 'official' reason?

On a more positive note - my regional director (not a DZO) has already contacted me regarding my posts here and I fully intend to take him up on his offer. I think the picture Derek paints could be the reality, but I also think we have a chance to pick up the brush and paint what we want if we just get involved (the age old mantra I guess).

Jump

Scars remind us that the past is real

[billvon 2,434]

>1) USPA does not respect the internet as a viable source of public opinion.
>2) USPA will not react to what is posted here.

Heck, generally I don't respect the internet as a viable source of public opinion. People who post the most heavily here, and thus represent most of the public opinion, generally can't be bothered to go to meetings, set up camps, write new procedures etc.

>3) Many, many, many e-mails will have to be sent to the
>elected representatives to get enough critical mass.

Or eight people have to show up for a USPA board meeting.

[DougH 270]

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In general however, I am firmly against lowering standards so that more students get through.

Arguably the USPA has made it both harder and costlier to get an A license then it used to be.

I don't think the gripe is that it is easier on students, but instead that the standards to becoming an instructor have become lax.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[Glitch 0]

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Or eight people have to show up for a USPA board meeting.

what makes this a magic number? Is this enough to sway the boards opinion or gain a majority vote?

Randomly f'n thingies up since before I was born...

[BIGUN 1,071]

Quote

Maybe the USPA Group Member Inspection Program goes like this:

PREREQUISITES
* Instructors with ratings
* Jumpers are USPA members
* BSR followed

POINTS TO EARN
* DZ provides complete maintenance log of aircraft. Log must be audited by a 3rd party as complete, accurate, and appropriate. Maybe canceled checks and invoices for parts must be attached?
* DZ provides complete training log of pilots, including syllabus, continuing education, and ground and air hours of education completed.
* DZ, if equipped with rigging loft, provides continuing education requirements for riggers.
* DZ provides complete emergency aircraft action plan.
* DZ provides complete skydive injury emergency action plan.
* DZ provides procedures for counting canopies/making sure every soul is counted upon landing.
* DZ participation in safety day
* DZ participation in 'innovative safety programs'
* DZ's submittal of accident reports, even for minor injuries
* DZ's published landing pattern, landing rules, landing area photos.
* DZ's published jump run procedures, exit order, exit separation techniques.
* DZ provides maintenance log of tandem and student rigs, with points deducted for age and number of jumps on assembly regardless of maintenance, points added for detailed preventive maintenance programs.
* DZ provides continuing education (drill jumps/'safety meetings' in tunnel speak) for instructors
* DZ's marketing materials meet truth in advertising criteria

Well thought out. Agreed.
The "Inspectors" could be Regional S&TA's, rather than being just being a rating that issues licenses, signs off on badges and does incident reports.
If there's an evaluation form for Instructor certification; why can't there be an evalution form for Group Member DZ certification, rather than just a pledge and money thrown at the membership?

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[tdog 0]

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The "Inspectors" could be Regional S&TA's

The regional S&TA's are jumpers who go to the DZs for fun and work.

Having them be the bad-cop puts their employment and relationship with the DZ on the line. Plus - it puts less credibility in the system, "oh, he works there, he just gave them all the points because he is the part owner too."

This has been a real problem for some of my friends, who in the past, had to take action when the crap hit the fan.

[jumper03 0]

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In general however, I am firmly against lowering standards so that more students get through.

Arguably the USPA has made it both harder and costlier to get an A license then it used to be.

I don't think the gripe is that it is easier on students, but instead that the standards to becoming an instructor have become lax.

That is what I meant - aff instructors to be as the students i am referring too. initial posted edited to reflect that.

Scars remind us that the past is real

[BIGUN 1,071]

Look... if you're going to argue logically, we can just drop it.

I guess my brain locked on to several S&TA's I know that are "At-Large" meaning they have no home DZ or ownership, but have been in the port 20+ years and who's opinion is respected. a new S&TA job description could be done... not unlike the Course Directors who evlauate, but have no true allegiance to any one DZ.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[billvon 2,434]

>Is this enough to sway the boards opinion or gain a majority vote?

It was for us, so it's in the right ballpark.

[chutejump 0]

It appears that most people agree that the GM program is not wanted, that by it's existance it can place USPA in a very undersireable position if they make decisions that could violate government free trade laws.
If USPA were able to control the program and get all of the GM DZs to comply with the pledge, the program would become more useful and sound, but we all know that this will never happen, it is always controlled with profit and politics.
We also know that even when we as the membership state our dissatisfaction, the board will do what is the best for themselves, this means that we would probabbly be unable to complain enough to get the GM program resended.
Maybe the DZs themselves can get this job done? We all know USPA reads these threads, them someone should start a list of all the DZs whom do not plan to renew their GM for the 2008 season, and allow the DZs to place their vote also.

[pilotdave 0]

I bet not even 4 dropzones will drop their group membership. The DZs like group membership. They pay for the right to post that USPA seal of approval on their websites. The decision to keep or drop the GM program is up to USPA members, not dropzones. Unfortunately, that means it will never happen.

Dave

[Krip 2]

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I bet not even 4 dropzones will drop their group membership. The DZs like group membership. They pay for the right to post that USPA seal of approval on their websites. The decision to keep or drop the GM program is up to USPA members, not dropzones. Unfortunately, that means it will never happen.

Dave

Why can't the jumpers vote out the GMDZ program during the next USPA election.

[kallend 1,648]

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I bet not even 4 dropzones will drop their group membership. The DZs like group membership. They pay for the right to post that USPA seal of approval on their websites.
Dave

I've just looked at a few websites of large GM DZs and if there was a "USPA seal of approval" on any of them, it was so well hidden I couldn't find it. Not saying it doesn't happen.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[faulknerwn 37]

Actually most dzo's I've talked to would love to quite the GM program but if they do, then the other dz down the road tells customers "Oh they're not a member of USPA so they don't follow rules and are dangerous."

That's the reason more of em don't quit.

[bozo 0]

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Actually most dzo's I've talked to would love to quite the GM program but if they do, then the other dz down the road tells customers "Oh they're not a member of USPA so they don't follow rules and are dangerous."

That's the reason more of em don't quit.

And lets not forget Micheal Hawkes when he owned Skydive Las Vegas. It was Group Member DZ but he did not allow funjumpers...period.
Makes a lot of sense dont it ?

bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.