PC not cocked - question

[northcave 0]

Question from a whuffo today I'd like to put to the committee.

"You forget to cock you Pc and on going it you notice it flapping above you and now inlfating enough to yank your pin out.... Or the Pc is cocked but the pin jams and the same thing happens, the Pc is floating around at the end the bridal...

So if you cut away and deploy reserve the question is therefore obvious, what are the chances of the pc and bridal causing entanglement and/or the reserve knocking the main out at the same time and again, causing entanglement.

Answers on a post card please

[Booster_MPS 0]

Quote

Question from a whuffo today I'd like to put to the committee.

"You forget to cock you Pc and on going it you notice it flapping above you and now inlfating enough to yank your pin out.... Or the Pc is cocked but the pin jams and the same thing happens, the Pc is floating around at the end the bridal...

So if you cut away and deploy reserve the question is therefore obvious, what are the chances of the pc and bridal causing entanglement and/or the reserve knocking the main out at the same time and again, causing entanglement.

Answers on a post card please

This is a total malfunction. How were you trained to handle this situation?

[derrickiv 0]

He's not asking what to do.. it seems obvious the only thing to do is pull red then silver..

The OP is asking.. so you have PC in tow, you cutaway, but there isn't enough drag for it to do anything, so it just stays there flapping..

he's asking what is the likelihood of the main PC getting tangled in the reserve deployment?

[dragon2 0]

Quote

it seems obvious the only thing to do is pull red then silver..

Is it?

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[DARK 0]

iv also been thinking something similar to this......

scenario A)pc in tow you choose to cutaway and pull reserve. not enough pull from pc to get rid of main/bag until, for whatever reason, the reserv is deployed

scenario B) pc in tow you dont cut away but pull reserve you realise that the main is deploying/has deployed so you now have a two out or are a about too and cut away the main

which scenario is more likely to mess up your reserve if either? what i mean is will the bag being pull out with no anchor point on the jumper be more likely to cause damge/entanglement or will a cutaway of a partially or fully deployed main be more likely to cause damage?

hope op dosnt mind me adding in question

[VTmotoMike08 0]

Someone with more experiance can say for certain, but isnt this part of the reason that reserves are packed in a FREEbag? So that even if the reserve bridal got engangeled, the canopy could still have a chance at coming out?

That is just my limited understanding of part of the reason reserve freebags are not attached to the canopy. I might be wrong and I would love to know.

[jacketsdb23 45]

The SIM teaches two methods for dealing with a PCIT. Neither one is wrong. They key is to learn one procedure and practice it. Both methods can and have resulted in death.

I choose to cutaway if i've thrown my pilot chute out.


What will you do? Think about it and practice. Nobody can give you the chances - or percentages of the main staying in the container or leaving or ......

I'll try to get the SIM section posted.


EDITED TO ADD SIM SECTION:

Section 5-1:

Total Malfunctions

Pilot chute in tow procedure 1:
Pull the reserve immediately. A pilot-chute-in-tow malfunctions is associated with a high descent rate and requires immediate action. The chance of a main-reserve entanglement is slim, and valuable time and altitude could be lost by initiating a cutaway prior to deploying the reserve. Be prepared to cutaway.

Pilot chute in tow procedure 2:
Cut away, then immediately deploy the reserve. Because there is a chance the main parachute could deploy during or as a result of the reserve activation, a cutaway might be the best response in some situations.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[bclark 0]

Either response can result in a main / reserve entanglement.

Answer yourself this question:

I have had a pilot chute in tow and my main and reserve have entangled. Am I going to have more options / control of this situation with my main risers attached in a two out configuration or detached and flailing?

The answer seems obvious to me.

We are taught to deal with two out.

How do you deal with a cutaway main entangled in your reserve?

[jacketsdb23 45]

Brian,

I think the best thing to do is to avoid this situation all together. I feel the PCIT is probably one of the most preventable malfunctions out there.

However, as we should be prepared for this situation I choose to cutaway anytime I'm sure Ive thrown the PC. It keeps my emergency procedures simple and consistent. My handles are numbered 1, 2, 3 in my head. If the count is started, I finish it in order. I do it this way if for no other reason than to keep it consistent. I don't think there is any way to know for sure what would happen to the main canopy if you do/ don't cutaway. In your example you assume the main will be removed from the Dbag..this may or may not happen.

My goal is to avoid that situation. My choice if ever needed may prove fatal.


(low altitude situations may arise that would require reserve deployment before cutting away- trying to avoid that situation too)

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[billvon 2,400]

>However, as we should be prepared for this situation I choose to cutaway
>anytime I'm sure Ive thrown the PC.

No problem. However, I would point out that anyone who adopts this scheme MUST keep their riser covers in good repair. If you have a rig that tends to pop its riser covers (which is common) this procedure could be dangerous.

[Loonix 0]

Quote

>However, as we should be prepared for this situation I choose to cutaway
>anytime I'm sure Ive thrown the PC.

No problem. However, I would point out that anyone who adopts this scheme MUST keep their riser covers in good repair. If you have a rig that tends to pop its riser covers (which is common) this procedure could be dangerous.

Could you elaborate on that? I don't understand how loose risercovers would be a problem in this case.

Another question for those going straight to silver. What if the PCIT clears while you're pulling silver? If you've cut away first, chances are the main are gone before the reserve gets out, and there will be no entaglement. If you don't cut away, the reserve will instead try to deploy into a deploying main, which I should think is worse... What are your thoughts on this?

[riggerpaul 1]

Secure riser covers will help keep the risers in place until such time as the main tries to get out and takes the risers with it.

If you've chopped and the riser covers are open, the wind could free either or both sides of the 3 ring release, even if the main container is staying closed. Then you have risers that are flapping in the breeze and staying attached to you because the main isn't taking them away. (The chance of this sort of thing goes up if you are unstable when you chop.)

These flapping main risers are likely to be closer to the deploying reserve system than the original PCIT was, so they present a greater danger of entanglement than the PCIT did in the first place.

All this points to the need to keep your rig in top condition. If you are having problems the security of things like riser covers and container flaps or pin covers, get them fixed. Maybe you won't care when things are going well, but when stuff starts hitting the fan, good maintenance might save your life.

[bclark 0]

I agree that PCIT is almost entirely preventable. And I agree that prevention is the best solution.
I won't try and change your mind about your EP's.
There are two accepted schools of thought. I happen to follow the opposite one. I believe a PCIT is a total malfunction and should be treated as such.
I also think I have alot more options with my risers securely attached to my rig. A main reserve entanglement may result with either course of action. But with the risers still attached it is much more likely that you will end up with a two out situation. And that gives you a whole new set of options and choices. If you cut away first you either get lucky or you don't. And if you don't you are left with little recourse.

[ficus 0]

Everyone is in agreement that either choice you make can be fatal, as both have unfortunately proven so.

The strongest argument I have heard for cutting away in the event of a PCIT is rooted in this. If it's a 50/50 shot, why complicate your emergency procedures? Go ahead and do what you have practiced, as there is little time to think during a high speed malfunction.

Another argument in favor of cutting away: the pressure exerted on your main is definitely going to drop once your reserve container empties, and that might be enough to free it.

Personally, I would make one try to grab my bridle and pull the pin myself. This would likely not result in a landable main, but it would at least mean clean air for my reserve PC.

[Booster_MPS 0]

Quote

I agree that PCIT is almost entirely preventable. And I agree that prevention is the best solution.
I won't try and change your mind about your EP's.
There are two accepted schools of thought. I happen to follow the opposite one. I believe a PCIT is a total malfunction and should be treated as such.
I also think I have alot more options with my risers securely attached to my rig. A main reserve entanglement may result with either course of action. But with the risers still attached it is much more likely that you will end up with a two out situation. And that gives you a whole new set of options and choices. If you cut away first you either get lucky or you don't. And if you don't you are left with little recourse.

I personally agree with this course of action and this is how I was trained. Rely on your own training as you were instructed.

One thing that should be mentioned in this discussion is altitude awareness. If you are deploying at your licensed altitude please keep in mind that the ground is quickly approaching and it is critical to get something over your head. If you are accurately able to see a PCIT, then in no way can you make the assumption that it "might" clear. You have no information while you are in the moment that leads you that way. Because of this I would go silver ASAP. Stay safe everybody.

[bclark 0]

Although I know people that have cleared pilot chute in tows by reaching back and popping the pin, there are a couple of reasons I can think of not to do this.

First: assume you are skydiving along and at 3000' you wave off, arch, reach, and pull. This puts you at 2500' as you let go of your pilot chute. Oh shit, I have a pilot chute in tow! Even the quickest reflexes are going to take a couple more seconds to react. Now I am somewhere around 2000'. I think maybe I can clear this pilot chute in tow by "popping the pin", so I reach back and actually manage to clear the malfunction at about 1500'. I jump a modern high performance parachute which takes 500-800 feet to open with a fully inflated pilot chute. Suddenly I am snivelling through Cypres fire and end up under 1000' with 2 out.

Second: this only works if the PCIT is caused by an uncocked pilot chute. If it is something more insidious such as a misrouted bridle (yes, I know we should have caught this on our preflight) you are simply wasting time.

Have a preplanned response. Whether you cut away first or not, don't fuck around. Recognize the problem and act.

[popsjumper 2]

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...How do you deal with a cutaway main entangled in your reserve?

If you had cutaway first...you make the rest of the descent look good for the video.

If you had not cutaway, you may be able to pull the main out of the reserve by reeling in the main risers on one side and the suspension lines that go with it. Still, make it look good for the video. Who knows? You may get lucky...little-to-no chance of that if you cutaway first and the main risers are flailing out of reach.

I subscribe to the "Total - deploy the reserve" scenario.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[jimmytavino 16]

I agree,,, NOT to screw around, trying to yank on the bridle.....
Manually grabbing the bridle, and pulling it until the pin releases, and opens the main container, does not necessarily assure that the pilot chute will have enough "snatch force' to extract the bag and help the main to open cleanly,,,
NOW what happens , is you have a main bag dancing around,,, you've just burned maybe 1000 feet.. and you're still effectively in freefall...especially if the PC isn't inflating..

P C in tow ? >>>>>... if it upsets your stability,,, i.e. puts you on your side,, or gets you into a turn or spin,,,,, I WOULD take the time to get squared away in the air,,, get falling belly to earth, and then pull the reserve handle.....Of course.... we cannot waste time gaining stability, and that technique may be simple for an experienced jumper and not so simple for a novice....still , if you pull the pin,,, that just adds Tangle-ability to the scenario....
...... I towed a PC years ago while using a bellyband deployed P C ... the pin pulled, the bag DID get out, and I was head low, and feet low, and spinning.....a twisted bellyband, effectively tied the apex lines of the canopy to my hip....
I didn't cut away,, (the rig had R-3 releases,, ) but instead, got flat and fought to get belly to earth,,,
I then FELT the main D bag hit me on the back of my thighs,,,, and so right then, punched my reserve Blast handle, and my 26 foot lopo
blasted open ,, cleanly...

quite the mess, and a mistake, which i never made again.... and this was in the time BEFORE collapsible pilot chutes....

p.s. got my reserve about 900 feet... landed it in the pea gravel... with my main suspension lines,,, all over the place, my main d bag pulled in, and stuffed between my legs ( the canopy, a French Papillon, never got outta the bag....) and my main risers still attached,,,

high speed mal = high speed response...

proper attention to gear and gear checks,,, reduce the likelihood of a high speed mal...
let's be careful out there...and deploy at the upper range of pull altitudes, and not the lower range...

jmy

[hackish 8]

I remember doing a H&P at 14,500 and saying to myself shit I didn't cock that thing properly. After towing it about 1000' to terminal I reached back and pulled the pin myself. In my case altitude was not at a premium and I had lots of time to deal with it. It deployed.

I'm not sure if the riser covers will make that much of a difference since they need to be opened by the reserve anyway and if your d-bag is still in place I can't see the main risers escaping - there is no reason for them to since the main bag in place should be keeping them under tension.

The chances of the reserve pilot and bridle becoming entangled with the main bridle and PC are probably related to the deployment position. Reserves are designed to deploy most efficiently in a head-high position but the PC should "spring" directly off your back. In a head-high position this could be directly across the path of the main bridle.

At terminal you will still be getting 150-200lb of force from your reserve PC so chances are it will still pull the freebag clear through being impeded by some interference of the main bridle.

Finally, it has been documented a number of times that the main container loosening when the reserve leaves can lead to a PCIT clearing. In this situation it may not be best to have the main risers whipping off the 3 rings as the main begins to inflate during reserve inflation. In theory the reserve should beat the main but an inflating canopy is probably more likely to be snuffed out by an entanglement.

So I don't have any "answers" just a few facts and ideas to add to the discussion.

-Michael

[SPAWNmaster 0]

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At terminal you will still be getting 150-200lb of force from your reserve PC

is this a fact? not questioning you just curious about this sort of data.

anyone know what the average ammount of force it requires for a main pin to pull? sorry its off topic!

[tfelber 0]

I've the same situation with opposite results. PCIT, think nothing out go silver, needed a repack anyway. Canopy opens, look up it's the main. Lots of loose lines wrapped around everything, canopy flying straight so I start sorting through the mess. As I get the toggles free I fel something hit me in the side. I look down to see the reserve still in the freebag. I don't want that coming out so I stuff it down the front of my shirt. Land uneventfully in the peas to the yelling of people on the ground, "What happened?", "Are you all right?" When I look back a little puzzled they tell me I have a reserve PCIT. Oh that! Well...

If the reserve would have cleared the bag and inflated I would not be here to type this now. When I asked one of my friends who I trusted as an instructor, he said he would have cut it away first. That is what I have also decided. CUT IT AWAY THEN GO TO RESERVE.

My thoughts are give your reserve the chance to perform. The main is closed with multiple rubberbands and should remain closed if it leaves the container as a result of the deploying reserve. If the main is just popping the last closing band as you cutaway, it should leave before your reserve has a chance to entangle. If your main is inflating as you cutaway it will definitely be gone by the time your reserve comes out. The only downside I see is if your main is deploying slightly behind your reserve causing them to inflate at or near the same time. I don't know what the odds are of this occurrence but I'm sure it is miniscule in comparison to the other possibilities.

[bclark 0]

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If the reserve would have cleared the bag and inflated I would not be here to type this now.

Why not? Are you saying that if the reserve would have escaped you would be guaranteed a main / reserve entanglement? Extensive testing has shown that you are far more likely to end up with a biplane, a side by side, or a downplane.

[tfelber 0]

The lines I was clearing were the reserve lines and they had about 4-5 wraps around my main risers and lines. So if it would have inflated it would have probably shut my main down and not been able to fully inflate either. I got extremely lucky in that the main beat the reserve out. When I pulled silver I was still in a high speed mal. It's hard to even conjure up how it worked out, but it did... The main should not be able to beat the reserve out and the reserve is designed and packed to inflate quickly with little air speed. If I had popped my brakes prior to noticing my reserve out I probably would have had enough air speed to clear the reserve from the free bag.

[kkeenan 13]

It looks like a lot of folks are coming to the startling realization that a pilot chute in tow can kill you no matter what your EP of choice. When folks are trained, they are told one method or the other, and that is what they adopt as "their" EP. The truth is that once a jumper has 100, 200, or more jumps, they should be able to think their way through the operation of their gear, and if they don't like what they were taught, change it. I have seen people on this thread say something like, "Yeah, that might kill me, but that's how I was trained and I can't change it" (I paraphrase). That's crazy. You're not a trained monkey. If your procedures need updated, then do it. I'm not saying to think about it while in the middle of an emergency. That will definitely kill you. Think and talk about it and develop your procedure, practice it and commit it to your muscle memory, then use it if necessary.

Personally, I would not cut away from a PCIT. It wastes time, and, as has been said, a two-out situation is better to deal with than a reserve with a cutaway main in the middle of it.

Several years ago, a well-known videographer experienced a PCIT following a tandem video jump. He pulled the cutaway handle, then dumped the reserve. His reserve opened perfectly. Then, moments later, his main came out. As the main pulled away, one of the risers snagged the reserve slider and pulled it slowly up the lines to the reserve canopy, collapsing his reserve to about 4 ft. wide. This increased his descent rate back up to about 90 mph, and all he could do was look up at the snivelling reserve. As luck would have it, he crashed through some big trees, one of which caught the reserve canopy, stopping him in midair. Unfortunately, the branch then broke, dropping him to the ground and sending him to the hospital. But, considering the alternative, he lucked out.

There may be just as many stories featuring badness occurring from not cutting away from a PCIT. So, do your research, be a grown-up jumper, and make your choice. (Or talk to your instructor if you're not qualified to choose.) Just make sure you decide before your next jump. Passing 2000' at terminal is not the time to debate the philosophical merits of each procedure.

Kevin Keenan

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[hangdiver 1]

Years ago I witnessed an airspeed member have a bag lock from an uncocked PC. He pulled the cut away handle but the risers were locked in place by the riser covers that had been improperly stowed. He pulled the reserve but the reserve PC got hung up with the unreleased bag lock and I watched as he reached back and hand deployed his reserve. I saw him reaching over his head grabbing at it and saw a big blue bubble appearing over his back as his reserve was deploying. As the reserve opened at about 300' the riser covers released the main bag lock with the reserve PC and free bag. He was releasing the brakes and flaring as the other mess hit the tarmac in front of him. He had pulled all the handles in the right order and still didn't have a canopy until he hand deployed his reserve.Lesson learned, never ever give up! Quite an impressive feat!

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan