Conflicts of interest in skydiving instruction

[Blis 1]

feuergnom

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Whenever I would teach packing after they were comfortable and thinking they were ready to be signed off, I'd give them a student rig how they can look after a non attentive student brings it in, step thrus, unstowed brakes and all. After a couple of minutes of them trying to figure it out, I'd show them how to untangle it and how to check to make sure it was completely untangled.

I always hated when a student/fresh A-license holder would get frustrated because they're standing there trying to untangle their canopy so they can keep jumping, the packers are busy with tandem rigs, everyone else is packing their own rigs... so they are stuck sometimes with no help for a while.

fixing and packing a tangled chute is a skill you have to know, if you want to pass the packing test. well at least in my little corner of the world.
I could never get the mindset of people relying on packers. although I know that things change when you turn heavy rotations in competitive skydiving or tandem

Here the rigger usually tries to make as huge mess as possible out of the chute that one has to pack for the test. But then again, we're engouraged to start learning to pack as soon as possible (did my first on jump 7)...

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[feuergnom 22]

the place I jump at, teachs tandem progression and students are thaught to pack from jump one - that means they pack the tandem after their first jump under supervision. so it's "you jump it - you pack it". if you can handle 360 sqft everything else gets as easy as pie
of course: YMMV

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[Ron 7]

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If spotting is taught by the jump pilot, it is not in his best interest to teach jumpers to be good spotters

I think both case are just a sign of the times. When I learned you learned to pack or you pretty much didn't get to jump. Even as a student they were involving us in the packing of our own rigs.

But we had the TIME. Everything was not immediate gratification.

Spotting. I don't think people know how to spot anymore since we don't spot anymore. When I was a JM at a Cessna DZ I had my students watch me, help me, spot for me. But I could do that because we had 4 people on a plane that was doing 75MPH and not an Otter full of folks. If the spot was a bit off, it was not by much and the "whole" 182 could easily make it back. Plus a go around in an Otter costs a bunch more than a 182.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Doug_Davis 0]

PixieUK

We had a progression weekend last week at our dz where we went over everything from the Ops Manual to all the briefings required for JM1 (including flight line checking, spotting, load organising, emergency responsibilities etc) and packing. We spent time going over kit and what different containers look like and the pros and cons of different styles. We inspected a canopy that had been hung up, then spent time flat-packing (to understand the principles of preparing a canopy to go into its D-bag) then moved on to pro-packing.

I had a refresher with the instructor yesterday and jumped my own pack job afterwards (I'm not signed off yet, it was a supervised pack).

I have been encouraged since my consols to always be aware of where the landing area is, regardless of our height, and no-one has ever refused to answer any of my questions about spotting the landing area from altitude. In the UK that is the JM responsibility, not the pilot, and the JM can tell the pilot to go around or change the run-in or come back down, if required.

I wish this happened, or happened more frequently in the US, unfortunately at many smaller DZ's they are too busy running tandems up to be able to run thorough comprehensive training programs or weekend refresher courses as you describe.

Do they run SL or AFF programs? Sure but you arent getting a lot of structured supervised instructor time.

nigel99

The problem is that the system still assumes the club mentality is prevalent, when it is not. While not popular the answer is to develop short courses to cover ALL the skills. For example a friend has started a packing course, and it is working well. I'm looking at spotting from the 182 without gps as another skill.

Agreed. But for safety it should be done that way. If the program (USPA curriculum) says you should cover the skills then they should be covered no matter how long it takes or how much attention needs to be given to the skill so that it can be adequately conveyed.
If your (general you, not you specifically Nigel) DZ is to busy to do that then you should stick to running up tandem tourists and not run a licensing program.
Some of these "Get Licensed in 7 Days!" programs are even worse. Do they have 25 jumps? Sure. Do they have any idea of how to do the math to calculate offset and spot based on winds aloft and fall rate? Nope.

[yoink 321]

Doug_Davis

Some of these "Get Licensed in 7 Days!" programs are even worse. Do they have 25 jumps? Sure. Do they have any idea of how to do the math to calculate offset and spot based on winds aloft and fall rate? Nope.

And the majority of skydivers in those programs don't care...

I'd even go so far as to say that probably less than 5% of licensed skydivers actually check the winds aloft and then check the spot.

As Ron pointed out, it's become about TIME - how FAST can I get my A-license? That's seen as a major selling point for AFF, so it could be translated as 'what's the bare minimum I need to do for my A license?'

It took me a year to get my A through static line, but man, I learned a shit tonne in that time. Packing, spotting, catching tandems, driving the pick up bus, running the bar, how manifest works, how dz control works... there's no end of stuff to learn.

[stratostar 5]

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Do they have any idea of how to do the math to calculate offset and spot based on winds aloft and fall rate? Nope.

You know what, I've been around this sport my whole life, 47 yrs. now, I have yet to see anyone sit down and do math to come up with the spot based on winds aloft. It's not rocket science to learn to spot for one thing and you can do it with an eye ball and by feeling the push on the aircraft during climb if it's really that windy aloft. You can also watch the ground track during the climb, seeing how we mostly go in circles, that means in theory at some point you will be into the wind, crosswind, downwind etc... and most the time you can feel it pushing the ac, like in a 182, or you can feel it and see it in the ground track.

Too many of you are green light dependent and can't spot to save you're asses anyway, regardless of checking the wind aloft and doing a math about it. Need to spend more time learning hands on and get your head out of the book and out the damn door and window to see WTF is going on.... IMHO

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Doug_Davis 0]

stratostar

You know what, I've been around this sport my whole life, 47 yrs. now, I have yet to see anyone sit down and do math to come up with the spot based on winds aloft.

Well you should have seen someone doing it at some point if you've ever hung around students, as its required part of the training for an A license. At least it was when I went through this past summer.

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Too many of you are green light dependent and can't spot to save you're asses anyway,

Not I. No green lights at my DZ.

[stratostar 5]

Who said anything about a FJC & training? We talking real world here not dropping meat bombs coming out FJC or going through a progression. Getting trained or shown how to do something is one thing, using it in the real world application is another story.

A great deal of us don't need to do a math problem to find the spot for the day, we do it the way we always have by dropping students.... LOL

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[mjosparky 3]

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I have yet to see anyone sit down and do math to come up with the spot based on winds aloft.

You mean something like this?

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[stratostar 5]

I didn't say it did not exist, did I... And you of all people I would expect to know where I'm coming from by those statements.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[swoopfly 5]

i dont know how your dz is ran, but most i have worked for and helped at, the skydiver is responsible for the spot. YOU tell the pilot what you want, YOU are the one jumping out. i could maybe see where your going with packers wanting to maintain most the pack jobs, but i think the pilot could really care less about whose in charge of the spot. And seeing as im the professional skydiver i think i will tell him where i want it, besides what does the pilot care?

[SoCalJumper 0]

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Even as a student they were involving us in the packing of our own rigs.

I never received instruction on how to pack a main parachute. I read the manual, packed it several times, jumped it 3 or 4 weeks later. It opened fine.

[stratostar 5]

Yea that is how we do it... however I have yet to see anyone outside of students getting trained up that go sit down and do a math problem at the start of the day to get the spot. Yes I hear people ask the pilot about the uppers and heading, yet none of them then go sit down and start filling out shit Sparky posted....

My point was, you don't need to do all that shit to spot the damn plane and to do it correctly. And in fact a great deal of places and jumpers rely on the green light and hardly even look out the door for traffic let alone the spot... I know I'm in the back hauling meat and I can see them all like sheep looking at the light and not out the door, then the light comes on they open the door and no one takes a second to look out, they just start climbing and going, see it all the time.

I have yet to see any LO's pause to go do the spot math before they go up, even first load of the day. Yea I;m sure out there is a few, but that would be very rare.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[wolfriverjoe 1,351]

swoopfly

i dont know how your dz is ran, but most i have worked for and helped at, the skydiver is responsible for the spot. YOU tell the pilot what you want, YOU are the one jumping out. i could maybe see where your going with packers wanting to maintain most the pack jobs, but i think the pilot could really care less about whose in charge of the spot. And seeing as im the professional skydiver i think i will tell him where i want it, besides what does the pilot care?

In my experience, the pilots are often better at spotting than the jumpers.

That would be the "Been at the DZ flying jumpers since they were jumping rounds" pilots, not the "Ink still wet on the Commercial ticket" pilots.

The smart jumpers would get with the pilot and discuss where they both thought the spot would be.
The smart newer jumpers would do more listening than talking in those discussions.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Rick 67]

wolfriverjoe

***i dont know how your dz is ran, but most i have worked for and helped at, the skydiver is responsible for the spot. YOU tell the pilot what you want, YOU are the one jumping out. i could maybe see where your going with packers wanting to maintain most the pack jobs, but i think the pilot could really care less about whose in charge of the spot. And seeing as im the professional skydiver i think i will tell him where i want it, besides what does the pilot care?

In my experience, the pilots are often better at spotting than the jumpers.

That would be the "Been at the DZ flying jumpers since they were jumping rounds" pilots, not the "Ink still wet on the Commercial ticket" pilots.

The smart jumpers would get with the pilot and discuss where they both thought the spot would be.
The smart newer jumpers would do more listening than talking in those discussions.


yes this ^ also when you get a new pilot at the DZ work with them to help them get it figured out. Good communication goes a long way

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[faulknerwn 37]

We have been using this http://www.skydivemidwest.com/dropzone/spot-calculator/ to do our first spot of the day for a few years now and it works great and does the math for you! Its not uncommon to make some adjustments to it as needed but its pretty accurate most of the time.

[feuergnom 22]

nice one - thanks!

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[ChrisD 0]

faulknerwn

We have been using this http://www.skydivemidwest.com/dropzone/spot-calculator/ to do our first spot of the day for a few years now and it works great and does the math for you! Its not uncommon to make some adjustments to it as needed but its pretty accurate most of the time.

Does anyone else use something like this:
SPOT ?

C

(Just posting the link.)

And this is where it came from: Matt (Just reposting here for anyone's convenience.)

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I am a huge proponent of teaching packing as part of a complete first jump course. While it may take up more of some instructors precious time, I think it's TREMENDOUSLY beneficial for a student to jump his/her own supervised packjob on their first jump. It's how we have ALWAYS done it in military freefall and it's how we ALWAYS did it at the sport parachute clubs on military bases.

Chuck

[airtwardo 6]

SkymonkeyONE

I am a huge proponent of teaching packing as part of a complete first jump course. While it may take up more of some instructors precious time, I think it's TREMENDOUSLY beneficial for a student to jump his/her own supervised packjob on their first jump. It's how we have ALWAYS done it in military freefall and it's how we ALWAYS did it at the sport parachute clubs on military bases.

Chuck

That's how I learned - civilian club back in '76.

Gives you better insight on the gear and a bit of confidence knowing exactly what's on your back.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[airdvr 198]

That'as always been the case. I saw it when DZO's were taking S/L T-10 students up in 20mph winds.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[propblast 0]

SkymonkeyONE

I am a huge proponent of teaching packing as part of a complete first jump course. While it may take up more of some instructors precious time, I think it's TREMENDOUSLY beneficial for a student to jump his/her own supervised packjob on their first jump. It's how we have ALWAYS done it in military freefall and it's how we ALWAYS did it at the sport parachute clubs on military bases.

Chuck

This is how I learned. In fact Greg at Gbsp was the one that made me pack 6 times prior to my first skydive. It is a confidence booster.

Propblast