micro 0 #26 June 21, 2006 QuoteRegrettably true. I included canopies in there knowing full well that they're never up to date due to various issues (legal being a primary one), but at the very least, you get a lot of packing tips and get to see what people wore to pack back in 1988. Here's a question that I honestly don't know the answer to regarding the legal issue that you raise... Isn't that a double edged sword? I mean, if there is reluctance to put out an encyclopedic manual for fear of some legal binding that it may have, can't it go the other way? Couldn't a court fault a company for failing in some way for putting out a product w/o also producing an owner's manual? Why would having a manual in any way legally bind a company should an owner/operator screw the pooch when the manufacturer would STILL maintain it's status as an uninsured, waivered entity that accepts NO liability for the consequences of anyone using their product. I find it odd that a little company like Big Air Sportz would take the time to put up such a manual if the potential legal repercussions were so devestating. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mfrese 0 #27 June 21, 2006 QuoteHere's a question that I honestly don't know the answer to regarding the legal issue that you raise... Isn't that a double edged sword? I mean, if there is reluctance to put out an encyclopedic manual for fear of some legal binding that it may have, can't it go the other way? Couldn't a court fault a company for failing in some way for putting out a product w/o also producing an owner's manual? Why would having a manual in any way legally bind a company should an owner/operator screw the pooch when the manufacturer would STILL maintain it's status as an uninsured, waivered entity that accepts NO liability for the consequences of anyone using their product. I find it odd that a little company like Big Air Sportz would take the time to put up such a manual if the potential legal repercussions were so devestating. I can't think of a U.S. manufacturer who doesn't issue ANY manual with their equipment, but they are all pretty generic, and with the usual disclaimers. For PD, you get one manual (Ram-air Owners Manual), which mainly covers packing, line trim, maintenance, etc., but doesn't refer to specific canopy types. They then do a fantastic job of providing additional guidance by canopy type in additional documents with flight characteristics and comparisons. Brian takes this further than most others (the BAS manual is almost the Reader's Digest version of "The Parachute and Its Pilot"), but I think that's due more to his personality and commitment to safety than any legal issues. Basically, I guess not having ANY manual would probably be looked at as "gross negligence", which, waiver or not, is a potential legal issue in some states. So that's my best guess. Doctor I ain't gonna die, Just write me an alibi! ---- Lemmy/Slash Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #28 June 21, 2006 QuoteQuoteHere's a question that I honestly don't know the answer to regarding the legal issue that you raise... Isn't that a double edged sword? I mean, if there is reluctance to put out an encyclopedic manual for fear of some legal binding that it may have, can't it go the other way? Couldn't a court fault a company for failing in some way for putting out a product w/o also producing an owner's manual? Why would having a manual in any way legally bind a company should an owner/operator screw the pooch when the manufacturer would STILL maintain it's status as an uninsured, waivered entity that accepts NO liability for the consequences of anyone using their product. I find it odd that a little company like Big Air Sportz would take the time to put up such a manual if the potential legal repercussions were so devestating. I can't think of a U.S. manufacturer who doesn't issue ANY manual with their equipment, but they are all pretty generic, and with the usual disclaimers. For PD, you get one manual (Ram-air Owners Manual), which mainly covers packing, line trim, maintenance, etc., but doesn't refer to specific canopy types. They then do a fantastic job of providing additional guidance by canopy type in additional documents with flight characteristics and comparisons. Brian takes this further than most others (the BAS manual is almost the Reader's Digest version of "The Parachute and Its Pilot"), but I think that's due more to his personality and commitment to safety than any legal issues. Basically, I guess not having ANY manual would probably be looked at as "gross negligence", which, waiver or not, is a potential legal issue in some states. So that's my best guess. Well, according to staff at Precision, there ARE no manuals for the current line of "high performance" canopies (per my call to them yesterday). The manuals are, evidentally, "in the works." I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kleggo 138 #29 June 21, 2006 Why is it that we see so many questions about stuff that's right there in the SIM? Doesn't anyone read the freakin' manual anymore? __________________________________________________ i have been jumping since 1981 i have > 4500 jumps i have had some competion success i have had the pleasure of participating in several world records. i am still alive i have NEVER read the sim and likely never will. but i have had the advantage of spending many many hours at dz's talking to people long before this internet resource came about. conversation is nearly ALWAYS better face-to-face vs keyboarding. the sim may be a decent substitute for conversation of either type????? you tell me. you also asked. Why is it that we see so many questions about stuff that's right there in the SIM? Is it all about just getting someone to tell you the info instead of reading it yourself? uh, because many people are basically lazy and want to be spoon fed whenever possible? be safe kleggo ps it's not just u you're right to be annoyed / concerned / interested Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #30 June 21, 2006 Quotelets face it we are all lazy and dont want to work for our answers.... Guess I am excluded from the "we are all" as I have read SIM's cover to cover, even back when it was in a blue 3 ring binder, and no full color pictures like the snazzy one we have today. In the past I have been referred to as" "SIM Thumper". The way I look at it, something as serious a commitment as skydiving merits study, not just the experience gained 60 seconds at a time. For the most part though, I am lazy...Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #31 June 22, 2006 Quote.... a former school teacher told me " Its not that you know it ALL, it that you know where to go to find the answers...." That's fine in some cases...ask the teach how to stop his/her 120mph plunge while he/she looks up an answer. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crum 0 #32 June 22, 2006 *** "and no full color pictures like the snazzy one we have today." Quote There's color pictures in the '06 SIM????!!! I must get one! Thats why I've been falling asleep with the '05 no cool pics to look at to break my concentration.... and by the way, just realized my SIM is here at work.....what do you think my boss will be more pissed at? Me reading my SIM during work or posting on DZ. com when I should be working. To hell with work, I gotta read the SIM. ******Today is one day too late.******** Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #33 June 22, 2006 Quote*** "and no full color pictures like the snazzy one we have today." Quote There's color pictures in the '06 SIM????!!! I must get one! Thats why I've been falling asleep with the '05 no cool pics to look at to break my concentration.... and by the way, just realized my SIM is here at work.....what do you think my boss will be more pissed at? Me reading my SIM during work or posting on DZ. com when I should be working. To hell with work, I gotta read the SIM. Well, on the cover anyway... I have become more accustomed to using the PDF file because it is A) Free and B) the search functions makes it easier to find things... This past year I have been lazy about studying, mostly I have been in and out of the hospital so much and my health issues have affected my in air participation and thus my interest has dwindled as I have been taking a lot of time to sit on my "pity pot". But non the less, the current versions of the SIM are much more illustrated and better formatted (didnt think so at first) then the SIM years ago.Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #34 June 22, 2006 Brian takes this further than most others (the BAS manual is almost the Reader's Digest version of "The Parachute and Its Pilot"), but I think that's due more to his personality ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PERSONALITY You hit the nail on the head! Brian is one of those rare individuals who has both a degree in psychology and extensive experience designing canopies. Most other parachute manufacturers are headed by boring engineers ... brilliant fellows, but unable to communicate with junior jumpers. At most companies, the worst fellow to write the manual is the guy who designed the system. He will either include far too much detail about the design process or will gloss over important points because they are "second nature" to him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Boeris 0 #35 January 2, 2009 QuoteHow about the SIM on Audio Book fer all dem lazy bastids out dere? Call Simon and Schuster Wow, I'm digging this thread up from quite a while ago...Just curious if there is an audio book on the SIM? Thanks!www.theflystyle.com "When once you have tasted flight you will always walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward: for there you have been and there you will always be." -L.D. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites slotperfect 7 #36 January 2, 2009 Nope. It's available in digital format from http://www.uspa.org or in hard copy through the USPA store.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Boeris 0 #37 January 2, 2009 Well that was quick...Thanks for the reply John. I'm heading to a boogie in a week. Will be testing for my B license first or second day there. I've read the SIM, but wanted to do a little multi-tasking and listen to it over and over while at work! :-)www.theflystyle.com "When once you have tasted flight you will always walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward: for there you have been and there you will always be." -L.D. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites godfrog 2 #38 January 2, 2009 QuoteMy religion dont allow me to RTFM. And its easier to play dumb anyway. I didn't write this! WTF!!! is somebody posting in myname!!!!Experience is a difficult teacher, she gives you the test first and the lesson afterward Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites yeyo 1 #39 January 2, 2009 Quote Quote My religion dont allow me to RTFM. And its easier to play dumb anyway. I didn't write this! WTF!!! is somebody posting in myname!!!! That was on June 20, 2006....maybe u changed religion? HISPA #93 DS #419.5 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverbry 0 #40 January 2, 2009 RTFM.Took me about 10 second.Now I can't quite laughing Bry -------------------------------------------------- Growing old is mandatory.Growing up is optional!! D.S.#13(Dudeist Skdiver) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #41 January 2, 2009 Quote Why is it that we see so many questions about stuff that's right there in the SIM? Because it's simpler to ask "How many jumps do I need for my B-license" than finding that information in the on-line SIM. Quote Doesn't anyone read the freakin' manual anymore? Competant engineers and lawyers do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lastchance 0 #42 January 2, 2009 RTFM It took me a couple minutes, but after going back aways in the thread I figured it out. I may be getting old but I got to see all the cool bands. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites denete 2 #43 January 3, 2009 Quote RTFM It took me a couple minutes, but after going back aways in the thread I figured it out. RTFSIM SCR #14809 "our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe" (look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #44 January 3, 2009 I am pleased to see this thread brought back to life. 2.5 years later and it's still applicable. One thing about the hardcopy vs the softcopy. I favor the hardcopy for the following reasons: 1. You can take it with you wherever you go. 2. Once you start reading it, you learn where everything is and it becomes easier to find those treasured tidbits. 3. It impresses the students when you can tell them exactly which chapter, section and sub-section they can find information. I put one copy in the bathroom...er, library. As long as you're a "captive audience", you may as well learn something while you're there, right? Warning: Some of those things get tougher as one ages...brain cells tip over and information leaks out. It's a good idea to refill those empty cells periodically.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites denete 2 #45 January 3, 2009 QuoteQuoteHow about the SIM on Audio Book fer all dem lazy bastids out dere? Call Simon and Schuster Wow, I'm digging this thread up from quite a while ago...Just curious if there is an audio book on the SIM? Thanks! I could have my Mac read the PDF. Now that would be bizarre. I'm still running 10.4.11, but I understand that Leopard has better speech. - DavidSCR #14809 "our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe" (look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnDeere 0 #46 January 3, 2009 I would rather read than hear that shitNothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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AFFI 0 #33 June 22, 2006 Quote*** "and no full color pictures like the snazzy one we have today." Quote There's color pictures in the '06 SIM????!!! I must get one! Thats why I've been falling asleep with the '05 no cool pics to look at to break my concentration.... and by the way, just realized my SIM is here at work.....what do you think my boss will be more pissed at? Me reading my SIM during work or posting on DZ. com when I should be working. To hell with work, I gotta read the SIM. Well, on the cover anyway... I have become more accustomed to using the PDF file because it is A) Free and B) the search functions makes it easier to find things... This past year I have been lazy about studying, mostly I have been in and out of the hospital so much and my health issues have affected my in air participation and thus my interest has dwindled as I have been taking a lot of time to sit on my "pity pot". But non the less, the current versions of the SIM are much more illustrated and better formatted (didnt think so at first) then the SIM years ago.Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #34 June 22, 2006 Brian takes this further than most others (the BAS manual is almost the Reader's Digest version of "The Parachute and Its Pilot"), but I think that's due more to his personality ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PERSONALITY You hit the nail on the head! Brian is one of those rare individuals who has both a degree in psychology and extensive experience designing canopies. Most other parachute manufacturers are headed by boring engineers ... brilliant fellows, but unable to communicate with junior jumpers. At most companies, the worst fellow to write the manual is the guy who designed the system. He will either include far too much detail about the design process or will gloss over important points because they are "second nature" to him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Boeris 0 #35 January 2, 2009 QuoteHow about the SIM on Audio Book fer all dem lazy bastids out dere? Call Simon and Schuster Wow, I'm digging this thread up from quite a while ago...Just curious if there is an audio book on the SIM? Thanks!www.theflystyle.com "When once you have tasted flight you will always walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward: for there you have been and there you will always be." -L.D. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites slotperfect 7 #36 January 2, 2009 Nope. It's available in digital format from http://www.uspa.org or in hard copy through the USPA store.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Boeris 0 #37 January 2, 2009 Well that was quick...Thanks for the reply John. I'm heading to a boogie in a week. Will be testing for my B license first or second day there. I've read the SIM, but wanted to do a little multi-tasking and listen to it over and over while at work! :-)www.theflystyle.com "When once you have tasted flight you will always walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward: for there you have been and there you will always be." -L.D. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites godfrog 2 #38 January 2, 2009 QuoteMy religion dont allow me to RTFM. And its easier to play dumb anyway. I didn't write this! WTF!!! is somebody posting in myname!!!!Experience is a difficult teacher, she gives you the test first and the lesson afterward Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites yeyo 1 #39 January 2, 2009 Quote Quote My religion dont allow me to RTFM. And its easier to play dumb anyway. I didn't write this! WTF!!! is somebody posting in myname!!!! That was on June 20, 2006....maybe u changed religion? HISPA #93 DS #419.5 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverbry 0 #40 January 2, 2009 RTFM.Took me about 10 second.Now I can't quite laughing Bry -------------------------------------------------- Growing old is mandatory.Growing up is optional!! D.S.#13(Dudeist Skdiver) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #41 January 2, 2009 Quote Why is it that we see so many questions about stuff that's right there in the SIM? Because it's simpler to ask "How many jumps do I need for my B-license" than finding that information in the on-line SIM. Quote Doesn't anyone read the freakin' manual anymore? Competant engineers and lawyers do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lastchance 0 #42 January 2, 2009 RTFM It took me a couple minutes, but after going back aways in the thread I figured it out. I may be getting old but I got to see all the cool bands. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites denete 2 #43 January 3, 2009 Quote RTFM It took me a couple minutes, but after going back aways in the thread I figured it out. RTFSIM SCR #14809 "our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe" (look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #44 January 3, 2009 I am pleased to see this thread brought back to life. 2.5 years later and it's still applicable. One thing about the hardcopy vs the softcopy. I favor the hardcopy for the following reasons: 1. You can take it with you wherever you go. 2. Once you start reading it, you learn where everything is and it becomes easier to find those treasured tidbits. 3. It impresses the students when you can tell them exactly which chapter, section and sub-section they can find information. I put one copy in the bathroom...er, library. As long as you're a "captive audience", you may as well learn something while you're there, right? Warning: Some of those things get tougher as one ages...brain cells tip over and information leaks out. It's a good idea to refill those empty cells periodically.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites denete 2 #45 January 3, 2009 QuoteQuoteHow about the SIM on Audio Book fer all dem lazy bastids out dere? Call Simon and Schuster Wow, I'm digging this thread up from quite a while ago...Just curious if there is an audio book on the SIM? Thanks! I could have my Mac read the PDF. Now that would be bizarre. I'm still running 10.4.11, but I understand that Leopard has better speech. - DavidSCR #14809 "our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe" (look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnDeere 0 #46 January 3, 2009 I would rather read than hear that shitNothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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riggerrob 558 #34 June 22, 2006 Brian takes this further than most others (the BAS manual is almost the Reader's Digest version of "The Parachute and Its Pilot"), but I think that's due more to his personality ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PERSONALITY You hit the nail on the head! Brian is one of those rare individuals who has both a degree in psychology and extensive experience designing canopies. Most other parachute manufacturers are headed by boring engineers ... brilliant fellows, but unable to communicate with junior jumpers. At most companies, the worst fellow to write the manual is the guy who designed the system. He will either include far too much detail about the design process or will gloss over important points because they are "second nature" to him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Boeris 0 #35 January 2, 2009 QuoteHow about the SIM on Audio Book fer all dem lazy bastids out dere? Call Simon and Schuster Wow, I'm digging this thread up from quite a while ago...Just curious if there is an audio book on the SIM? Thanks!www.theflystyle.com "When once you have tasted flight you will always walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward: for there you have been and there you will always be." -L.D. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #36 January 2, 2009 Nope. It's available in digital format from http://www.uspa.org or in hard copy through the USPA store.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Boeris 0 #37 January 2, 2009 Well that was quick...Thanks for the reply John. I'm heading to a boogie in a week. Will be testing for my B license first or second day there. I've read the SIM, but wanted to do a little multi-tasking and listen to it over and over while at work! :-)www.theflystyle.com "When once you have tasted flight you will always walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward: for there you have been and there you will always be." -L.D. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
godfrog 2 #38 January 2, 2009 QuoteMy religion dont allow me to RTFM. And its easier to play dumb anyway. I didn't write this! WTF!!! is somebody posting in myname!!!!Experience is a difficult teacher, she gives you the test first and the lesson afterward Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yeyo 1 #39 January 2, 2009 Quote Quote My religion dont allow me to RTFM. And its easier to play dumb anyway. I didn't write this! WTF!!! is somebody posting in myname!!!! That was on June 20, 2006....maybe u changed religion? HISPA #93 DS #419.5 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverbry 0 #40 January 2, 2009 RTFM.Took me about 10 second.Now I can't quite laughing Bry -------------------------------------------------- Growing old is mandatory.Growing up is optional!! D.S.#13(Dudeist Skdiver) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #41 January 2, 2009 Quote Why is it that we see so many questions about stuff that's right there in the SIM? Because it's simpler to ask "How many jumps do I need for my B-license" than finding that information in the on-line SIM. Quote Doesn't anyone read the freakin' manual anymore? Competant engineers and lawyers do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lastchance 0 #42 January 2, 2009 RTFM It took me a couple minutes, but after going back aways in the thread I figured it out. I may be getting old but I got to see all the cool bands. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
denete 2 #43 January 3, 2009 Quote RTFM It took me a couple minutes, but after going back aways in the thread I figured it out. RTFSIM SCR #14809 "our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe" (look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #44 January 3, 2009 I am pleased to see this thread brought back to life. 2.5 years later and it's still applicable. One thing about the hardcopy vs the softcopy. I favor the hardcopy for the following reasons: 1. You can take it with you wherever you go. 2. Once you start reading it, you learn where everything is and it becomes easier to find those treasured tidbits. 3. It impresses the students when you can tell them exactly which chapter, section and sub-section they can find information. I put one copy in the bathroom...er, library. As long as you're a "captive audience", you may as well learn something while you're there, right? Warning: Some of those things get tougher as one ages...brain cells tip over and information leaks out. It's a good idea to refill those empty cells periodically.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
denete 2 #45 January 3, 2009 QuoteQuoteHow about the SIM on Audio Book fer all dem lazy bastids out dere? Call Simon and Schuster Wow, I'm digging this thread up from quite a while ago...Just curious if there is an audio book on the SIM? Thanks! I could have my Mac read the PDF. Now that would be bizarre. I'm still running 10.4.11, but I understand that Leopard has better speech. - DavidSCR #14809 "our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe" (look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #46 January 3, 2009 I would rather read than hear that shitNothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
