jimmytavino 16 #26 August 25, 2009 Quote >During an aircraft emergency, an instructor is responsible for being >the last one out alive. Well, that's the issue here. If the pilot says "Everyone but students OUT NOW!" what do you do? Refuse? tough call..... IF the instructors "get out" WHo then would be left ?? to deal with the students??? Do we know if the departure was a hasty One??? or if there was enough time to "brief " the students??? surely the pilot has his/her hands full... what if?? the students freak???? and then there they are .... in an empty cabin . with the door open.... were they instructed to remain seated?? to resecure their seatbelts for landing??? to stay put???? I remember that a few weeks ago, Popsjumper and others led a full load to a safe departure, in such a situation... Do we know if the plane was maintaining altitude???? was this an orderly emergency exit??? i hope so..Was this a full load??? what was the experience level(s) of any others on board...? it would be nice to hear from those who were involved,, secrecy has no place, when a safety issue is being discussed.. this is a chance for an educational session... jmy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SethInMI 160 #27 August 25, 2009 Quote>During an aircraft emergency, an instructor is responsible for being >the last one out alive. Well, that's the issue here. If the pilot says "Everyone but students OUT NOW!" what do you do? Refuse? Although the pilot is in command of the aircraft can can order a lot of things, I don't think he can ORDER anyone to exit the aircraft while in flight, even if they are wearing a parachute. He can order them to stay, but not to leave. Am I wrong?It's flare not flair, brakes not breaks, bridle not bridal, "could NOT care less" not "could care less". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 419 #28 August 25, 2009 QuoteQuoteAny truth about the instructors leaving without the students? It was my understanding that two AFFI's bailed and left the students on board alone as per the Pilot's instructions. When a pilot in command says get out, the instructors obligation is to get the students out safely. The only time it would be proper for the instructor to exit before the student would be if doing so was necessary to expidite the exits in an extreme situatution (ie. low altitude bailout, catostrophic failure that leaves the aircraft out of control, etc.) If the instructors in question bailed out thinking they were in an emergency requiring an immediate every-man-for-himslef ass-hauling, then it's hard to criticize. If they pulled the hop n pop trigger out of panic after hearing an engine swallow itself and a pilot screaming bail-out, but actully had time to put their students out on instructor assisted bail-outs, then there's a problem. I don't know which it is in this case, but I can say in general, the quality of AFF instructors and instruction these days is sh*t compared to what it should be. But that's no secret.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,772 #29 August 25, 2009 > I don't think he can ORDER anyone to exit the aircraft while in flight, even if >they are wearing a parachute. He can order them to stay, but not to leave. Am I >wrong? He can basically do whatever he likes, even violate FAR's if needed. (That's actually written down.) The passenger, of course, does not have to obey him, but the pilot has the final say. If he told you to get out, and you didn't, and the plane crashed (partly) as a result of that, and people were injured or killed - there would be a pretty good case against you, I think. It's an interesting question, but not one that will likely occur much in the real world. I liken it to the old static-line procedure where, if the student ends up in tow and unconscious, you're supposed to shimmy down the static line, grab his reserve handle, and then cut the SL. Interesting to talk about, not much chance of it happening successfully in the real world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,334 #30 August 25, 2009 I think it's great to have this discussion without a smoking wreck or injuries prompting it. It'd be nice to have more information about any such incident, and the rationale behind the decisions and requests that were made. Remember how much easier it is to judge in retrospect. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 733 #31 August 25, 2009 This is precisely why I started this thread. I'm all but certain what was told to me to be true. I'd love to hear from those that were there. tell us what happened, in what order, and why those decisions were made...please....it would suck to see this repeated with a much worse outcome. what if both engines went out? Oh wait...that happened fairly recently too....and nobody is talking about that one either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #32 August 25, 2009 QuoteIf the pilot says "Everyone but students OUT NOW!" what do you do? Refuse? Yes. At least one instructor should remain behind with the students, no matter what the pilot says. Someone should volunteer, or do a quick rock-paper-scissors. We are not obligated to blindly follow a pilot's orders, if we know them to be foolhardy. He may know more about flying the plane than we do, but the pilot usually doesn't know more about skydiving. If a pilot yells for everyone to bail out when the plane is only 100' off the runway, would you do it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ikon 0 #33 August 25, 2009 Conversely, as a student, if we're at 5k and the pilot tells everyone to get out except the students, is it my choice to listen to him or not? I have a perfectly good parachute to use rather than hope the plane lands safely. Not trying to say if anyone is wrong one way or the other, but do we, as students, just blindly listen to the pilot when everyone else is bailing out? I could understand if they were over a heavy populated area and there's concern over the students landing safely. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,772 #34 August 25, 2009 >We are not obligated to blindly follow a pilot's orders, if we know them to >be foolhardy. He may know more about flying the plane than we do, but >the pilot usually doesn't know more about skydiving. I would argue that it depends on the pilot. If Molie was flying? He manages the school, and knows more about skydiving instruction than most of the AFF-I's at Perris. If a new guy I didn't know was flying? I might assume that I am a better judge of student safety than he was. >If a pilot yells for everyone to bail out when the plane is only 100' off the >runway, would you do it? If it was Mike Kindsvatter flying? Yes - because the only time he would say that is if bailing out at 100 feet would give you a better chance at survival. (And sadly at Perris we've had an example of that.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rdufokker 6 #35 August 25, 2009 What if you had one or two observers on board, the pilot wants to lighten the load so the airplane is more manageable and not struggling to maintain altitude. He tells jumpers to get out. Does someone stay with the observers who are wearing parachutes. They are just passengers on an aircraft, like every other passenger on every other airplane flying the skies that has a shut down engine. If you are a license holding jumper and the pilot asks you to jump, you jump. Everyone else is a passenger under the control of the pilot.Irony: "the History and Trivia section hijacked by the D.B. Cooper thread" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilot-one 0 #36 August 25, 2009 QuoteOne out of two engines out on a Twin Otter is not the same as losing the only engine on a Cessna. Wendy P. That can be argued. It depends on where the airplane is when it loses its engine and highly dependent on the actions or reaction of the pilot. I've lost an engine in a 182. And I've lost an engine in a large turbine twin. Close to the ground I think I would rather be in the 182. Have you ever heard the old saying about the second engine getting the aircraft to the scene of the crash faster? Unfortunately it has been proven many many times. Don't think that just because you are in a twin engine aircraft you are safer because there is a point in each flight that you simply are not. I'm not sure about the student situation in this case but I do know that in an emergency the PIC is considered god..period. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hchunter614 0 #37 August 26, 2009 Isn't this situation why we teach students aircraft emergency procedures (bail out on your main or bail out on your reserve) in the FJC? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billeisele 130 #38 August 26, 2009 not enough details to comment on this specific incident but in general, the pilot rarely will have enough info to know if it is best for the students to exit or to stay in the plane (except in the case of plane-out-of-control or some other real bad situation), the pilot and instructors are a team they need to help each other, the pilot knows the plane, the instructors know the students if the pilot says get out there should be enough time to do an assessment of the situation while the back of the plane unloads, since some up-jumpers are rarely ready to exit the plane when they board I've seen the mad scramble to tighten leg straps, check chest straps, don helmets, etc., you should have at least 15 seconds but most likely much more, and if there are tandems that have to hook up who knows how long it can take while all that bs is happening the instructors should be able to gather more info and make a good decision obviously if the plane is not under control then hit the door with your student if it is under control then, possibly, reaffirm with the pilot the assessment of the situation, if there are folks that are not going to leave then tell the pilot, shut the door, seat belts on, review emergency landings with the passengers now for the tricky part, assuming the plane is presently under control, Cypress on or off?, my answer - assess the situation and make a good decision for an Otter, if the plane is under control, once most of the load has left, it may be OK for an instructor to stay, close the door and secure the passengers, if it is not OK for one instructor to stay then I can't imagine how it is safe for the students to stay if there are no students but observers riding, tell 'em to put on the seatbelts and you'll see 'em on the ground (my opinion but others will be more generous), if the plane is under control I'd climb out and pull down the door from outside every situation is different, assess and decideGive one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #39 August 26, 2009 Based on a couple PM's, I'm wondering if you're talking about the King Air (not Otter) at Skydive Utah. Per the DZO's email: "As most of you know by now, the left engine on 32229 went down Saturday. Doug did a fantastic job as did all jumpers on board. It has been a 1/4 century since I have been involved with a voluntary emergency exit, but this is why we train for one on an ongoing basis. As a sideline, even the whuffos on board were impressed with how the situation was handled, not even knowing what the protocols were. At this point the engine apears to be non-repairable. I am writing this e-letter to let you know we are not dead in the water." I was not there, all information third-hand, may be entirely or partially incorrect. Two tandems, two videographers, two AFFI's, two AFF students on the load. Everyone landed off except the two AFF students who landed with the aircraft. One Facebook posting says they landed 5 miles off the airport which is about what I was told in an email. Did the pilot instruct the AFF students to stay in the plane? Knowing him, I doubt it. He likely isn't trained in what to do in that situation, but he's a very experienced pilot. Did the AFFI's tell them to stay? I don't know. Wasn't there. My AFF training taught me that at least one instructor stays with student if they *cannot* get out, but same training says that if we're able and pilot prefers, we're all going out, and I'm going to deploy my student as soon as we clear the plane. The AFFI/E I had in Eloy is the same AFFI/E that trained the two AFFI's that were on board when the engine blew so I'm reasonably confident their training was the same that I received. Again, I wasn't there, most of what I know comes from third hand information and from some Facebook postings. Irrespective of this situation, were it my student and the aircraft was flying under control and stable (as I was told it was, and as the email implies), I'd have taken the student out and deployed him/her unless instructed otherwise by the PIC. This is how I was trained, and common sense says that a student shouldn't be left alone with just the pilot, as once the instructor is out of the aircraft, the student(s) could potentially freak out on the pilot, distract or challenge his ability to control the aircraft. Again...all that said...I was not there, and don't know the facts, so outside of what's on Facebook and the email from the DZO, I'm coming from thirdhand information. It's entirely possible one of the AFF instructors *did* stay in the plane and the person who emailed me about the incident was not correct. It's a helluva'n interesting discussion though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azureriders 0 #40 August 26, 2009 Quote Well, that's the issue here. If the pilot says "Everyone but students OUT NOW!" what do you do? Refuse? Short Answer, YES. Long Answer, I think we can all agree that no matter how much we discuss AC Emergencies, we can not cover every possible situation and therefore descions will have to be made on the fly at times. That said, I can not think of one possible situation where I would leave my student behind unless he was fighting to stay and the ground was getting close. Side note, Bryan Buechler and I once took a Level-1 out at 8 grand on and AC emergency. We were over the DZ and had PIC permision to pull at normal altitude and the student had a great L-1. There was a big laugh as I convinced the student that because he wanted to do L-2 that same day, we were going to get out early so we could get down quicker and get him back up sooner Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 733 #41 August 26, 2009 Thanks for the clarification Douglas. Tandems exited and yet two "AFFI's" left students on the aircraft??? Students that had obviously made it past their level 1 jumps even. Jeebus man. I'm curious of the tandem exits process order out of curiosity, although I imagine we'll never know. Given nobody on the plane has posted any information at this point. Unless of course they simply aren't dizziedotcommers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tuna-Salad 0 #42 August 27, 2009 QuoteWe were told during our fjc that it's the pilot who makes the call and when he says get out you get out now, or you will find yourself sitting in the plane with no one flying it! I would never want to be the person sitting in the plane when the pilot already bailed! haha In an otter the pilot can't bail without you knowing about it... Pilot would have to pass you on the way out or get diced into tiny pieces as restitution for abandoning you.Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMFin 0 #43 August 27, 2009 I have been in a one engine situation onboard a twin otter. We lost other engine right after take off. We had pretty much a full load and the plane was climbing ok. Pilot flew us all to about 2500k and where we all left the plane. After that the plane took off to another airport for maintance. No need to panic. The plane has two engines. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #44 August 27, 2009 Quote No need to panic. The plane has two engines. There are numerous instances of twin engine planes crashing after losing one engine. That is legitimate cause for serious anxiety. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #45 August 27, 2009 QuoteThere are numerous instances of twin engine planes crashing after losing one engine. That is legitimate cause for serious anxiety. While that is ture, an engine loss at an altitude where jumpers could safely exit is a different story. An engine loss on take off with low airspeed and high power settings is very dangerous situation, and requires very quick and correct action from the pilot to avoid disaster. A failure at an alititude where jumping would be feasible, even just barely, say 1000ft, is a different story. The pilot has the altitude to push the nose over, and create airspeed and control while securing the dead engine. In this scenario, the single engine could then be used to return the aircraft to the airport (this is assuming that the pilot is trained and current in the aircraft, and that the aircraft is properly maintained, and all systems aside from the failed engine are fully functional. If you are flying with an untrained or uncurrent pilot, or in an airplane that is being flown with know maintenence issues, then your safety has already been comprimised, and you deserve to go in after an engine failure). There are failures that could cause a complete loss of control at any altitude, and in these cases, there is a real need to panic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #46 August 27, 2009 That time it worked for you,,,at Quantum Leap it didn't,,,,The goal is to learn from these discussions.. smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,772 #47 August 28, 2009 >No need to panic. The plane has two engines. Right - but some Otters (especially older ones on hot days) need both engines to be able to climb at all. And sometimes pilots screw up; when that happens, the loss of a single engine can easily be fatal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #48 August 30, 2009 For a little more clarification, I personally spoke with the DZO about this engine failure; he confirmed the two AFFI's exited and left the students alone on the aircraft. DZ policy is effectively the same as the majority of the posts here. Either get the students out/clear n' pull or one instructor stays with student(s) on the ride down is DZ policy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ketia0 0 #49 August 30, 2009 So is the DZO going to do anything about the AFFI that left the students on the plane? Did he have a deffense for them?"In this game you can't predict the future. You just have to play the odds. "-JohnMitchell Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ikon 0 #50 August 30, 2009 Did he say why the students were left on the plane in the first place and didn't jump? Either they chose not to jump or were ordered not to. And if there were only 2 affi's and 2 students then that means they were atleast on aff4 with 1 instructor per student and they each had atleast 3 jumps under their belts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites