Reaperwear 0 #26 August 6, 2009 that made me laugh... I refuse to tiptoe through life, only to arrive safely at death. www.reaperwear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kkeenan 13 #27 August 6, 2009 Quote ...it is raining today and I get the feeling his jump will have to be postponed :( Probably should have tipped the weatherman. _____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tsalnukt 1 #28 August 6, 2009 Instructors get paid....AT LEAST $20 a jump. I don't know of many that will work for $20 a jump and I would say that industry wide it's probably higher than that. No person desreves a tip. Too many people give you absolutely shit service and then get pissed when you tip the 10 or 15 percent. I have seen many tandem masters not give two shits about their student, barely give them a briefing not say a word to them on the way to altitude, barely interact with the passenger or the video person in freefall, land, unhook them and stand there with their hand out expecting a tip and when they don't get one they go winging to manifest because manifest didin't tell the students that they are supposed to tip their instructors. I say a big F*&% YOU!!!! If you want a tip go that extra mile and EARN it! Does anyone remember what it''s like to work for something???? We have no tacky signs and the people doing the tandem classes and the girls in manifest aren't allowed to talk about it unless a customer inquires about it and then we tell them, "If you had a good time and you think that your instructor deserves a tip, they probably won't say no." It's very obvious at the end of the day who EARNS their tips. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #29 August 6, 2009 Quote The zipper guy, of course - at least I wouldn't be attached to him At least, not until after hours... Then the gumjob is on! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #30 August 6, 2009 QuoteNo person desreves a tip. ... I have seen many tandem masters not give two shits about their student, barely give them a briefing not say a word to them on the way to altitude, barely interact with the passenger or the video person in freefall, land, unhook them and stand there with their hand out expecting a tip and when they don't get one they go winging to manifest because manifest didin't tell the students that they are supposed to tip their instructors. I say a big F*&% YOU!!!! If you want a tip go that extra mile and EARN it! No person deserves a tip? Dude, chill – it is what it is… The tandem instructors you have described would not be allowed to work at the DZ I have been working at for nearly a decade – we weed out the mediocre because we provide first class service and attention and expect that from our instructors. Every tandem student receives 30 minutes of training, given an altimeter and allowed to pull the ripcord and assist in the piloting and landing of the canopy. We provide excellent service and training from the very first tandem to the graduation jump in the solo program. We cater to a large demographic and tipping is frequent, largely based on the excellent service we provide. I share your sentiment whenever I visit another DZ – there is no comparison to Skydive Spaceland and we are always looking for good instructors who want to be the best. I am not a tandem instructor, but one of the senior solo freefall instructors here and half the time I don't get any tip and that is fine, sometimes I get a $10 or $20, even better a few beers at the end of the day – Largest tip I ever received was $1,500! Did not want to accept it at first but my client assured me that is was no big deal for him – then he flew in his entire family to be trained specifically by me because after a life of specialized extreme environment training he told me I rated amongst the finest instructors he had ever worked with. It is nice to be appreciated for providing excellent service that is “above and beyond” All it takes is a little effort and giving a shit about what it is we are doing – that is why most TI’s out there would not last a week with us. So yes, tipping is appreciated for excellent service but not at all expected…Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MomDaBomb 0 #31 August 6, 2009 I agree with you. I tip because my instructors always go above and beyond what's required of them. They share their experiences with me, encourage me, challange me, help calm me down, give me tips and suggestions etc., and they just make it more fun. Same thing with the packers, they always ask how my jump went and offer tips. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SivaGanesha 2 #32 August 6, 2009 QuoteDo you really think an instructor is going to compromise safety if he doesn't get a tip? Try again. I have no doubt that the vast, vast majority of instructors--and especially of current instructors who entered the sport and became instructors without the expectation of big tips--would behave in ethical ways especially where safety is concerned. But I remain concerned about the effect of tipping on the culture of skydiving. There might be the occasional bad apple among current instructors but my bigger concern is that if you change the culture by making tipping a big part of the sport, future instructors might get into the sport for the wrong reasons--not because of a love of skydiving but because of a love of money. I think if you are going to have tipping in skydiving at all, it should be via a jar which all instructors share at the end of the day--even though I know one poster expressed dislike for this kind of tipping--NOT via tips for individual instructors. That way the taciturn instructor who acts like an a****le because he spends more time thinking about safety than about being popular can share equally with the better liked instructor who tries to be everyone's friend by passing them a bit too leniently. That's the way it should be IMHO. BTW I have no problem with tipping for packers or, in most cases, for tandem--because those folks are usually just providing a service and if you feel they are more than earning their money, it is great to give them a little extra. It's when you start getting into AFF and real decisions are being made about the student's skydiving future that I'd be more concerned."It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #33 August 6, 2009 QuoteIt's when you start getting into AFF and real decisions are being made about the student's skydiving future that I'd be more concerned. Again, you're barking up the wrong tree. I'd be more concerned about an instructor who would pass a student for a tip than the student. The student will encounter other instructors who will set them straight, and make sure they're up to snuff. The instructor who took the payoff (tip) will continue to operate with that same judgement for every student they encounter. Don't cock-block an AFF-I from getting a tip. They deserve them just as much as any other skydiver who does their job well enough to be recognized above and beyond the standard pay. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SivaGanesha 2 #34 August 6, 2009 QuoteThe student will encounter other instructors who will set them straight, and make sure they're up to snuff. And the student probably won't tip those other instructors--at least not as well--because they won't be seen as "nice guys/gals". QuoteThe instructor who took the payoff (tip) will continue to operate with that same judgement for every student they encounter. Exactly. And they'll continue to get the big tips and leave it to their poorer fellow instructors to do the real teaching. QuoteDon't cock-block an AFF-I from getting a tip. They deserve them just as much as any other skydiver who does their job well enough to be recognized above and beyond the standard pay. A student isn't in a position to evaluate how well an AFFI is doing their job, and shouldn't be asked to make that evaluation. Asking a student to make a determination as to size of tip is adding additional stress to what is already a challenging learning process. That's why I'm suggesting that, if you are going to have tipping for AFFI's at all, put it in a jar and have the instructors divvy it up amongst themselves in the way they (or the DZ) see fit."It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #35 August 6, 2009 I think the mistake you're making is twofold. First, nobody is asking the student to evaluate the instructors performance against a set standard, but only against how they felt they were treated. An AFF I could fly a sloppy skydive, and throw weak hand signals where the student can't see them, but if the student felt as if the instructor did their best, and cared for their well being, then that student should feel free to tip that instructor. Conversely, if an instructor flew a slot perfect skydive, and gave a spot on bebrief, but was short and impersonal with the student, then that student might not be inclined to tip. The tip is all about a personal feeling you get after service. If somebody takes care of you, you take care of them. The other mistake you keep making is thinking that a tip is going to buy you through training. The first part of this is that the USPA would yank your rating if they ever found out. Let's ballpark the cost of an AFF rating at $2500, so that money would be lost. Let's also say that at $35 a jump, a weekend instructor at a seasonal DZ could make $3000 to $5000, getting paid to skydive. That would be gone. Worth the tip? Hardly. Let's move on, past the money to the ethics. 90% of the AFF-Is out there are caring, motivated people who get the ratings out of a desire to help others, and pass on some knowledge in the sport. 10% are dickheads who enjoy lording over people, and like to be put in positions of power. The 90% won't take a bribe because they're not that type of people. The 10% won't take it because it's a case of the student assuming command of the situation, and telling the instructor how it's going to be. It's either that, or a case of some pud with a few bucks who thinks they're too good to pass a level the old fashion way, and the 10%-er's won't go for that either. It's not a situaiton ripe for abuse. The money invovled (even in a sizable tip) isn't enough to offset the consequences of passing a subpar student. This isn't a doorman letting a dorky guy into a club. It a highly trained professional dealing with potentially deadly consequences. Have a little faith that your lcoal AFF-I's aren't selling out for a $20 bill. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SivaGanesha 2 #36 August 6, 2009 QuoteI think the mistake you're making is twofold. First, nobody is asking the student to evaluate the instructors performance against a set standard, but only against how they felt they were treated. An AFF I could fly a sloppy skydive, and throw weak hand signals where the student can't see them, but if the student felt as if the instructor did their best, and cared for their well being, then that student should feel free to tip that instructor. Conversely, if an instructor flew a slot perfect skydive, and gave a spot on bebrief, but was short and impersonal with the student, then that student might not be inclined to tip. The tip is all about a personal feeling you get after service. If somebody takes care of you, you take care of them. So are you saying that interpersonal skills--and not skydiving/evaluation skills--should be the primary factor in determining the tip? QuoteThe other mistake you keep making is thinking that a tip is going to buy you through training. The first part of this is that the USPA would yank your rating if they ever found out. Let's ballpark the cost of an AFF rating at $2500, so that money would be lost. Let's also say that at $35 a jump, a weekend instructor at a seasonal DZ could make $3000 to $5000, getting paid to skydive. That would be gone. Worth the tip? Hardly. I think I've made clear but I guess I need to repeat--I think it would happen only very very rarely, if at all, that an instructor would accept an open bribe. But I AM saying that how money is handled affects the culture of the sport and should be considered carefully. My first jump in 1983 was at Skydive SWOOP at Grand Bend Airport in Canada. SWOOP was (and I think still is) organized as a non-profit. OTOH GB Sport Parachuting Center, at the same airport, was organized as a for profit business. I'm not saying which is better--but what I AM saying is that I learned early on that how money is handled affects the culture of skydiving. SWOOP and GBSPC definitely had very different cultures and it had a lot to do with the different philosophies they had about money. All I'm saying is that if you're going to accept tips think carefully about how it affects the culture of the sport. There's more involved here than just the remote risk of an instructor accepting a blatant bribe. QuoteHave a little faith that your lcoal AFF-I's aren't selling out for a $20 bill. What I'm saying is that tipping seems to be a relatively new phenomenom in the sport and I'm not sure if people are thinking through the long term consequences of this kind of a change in the culture."It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Just4me 0 #37 August 6, 2009 Yes, I should have tipped the weatherman. His jump got postponed due to the weather I was happy we at least drove up there and checked out the place. Luckily I did not see any tipping is appreciated signs Again thanks for the replies, has been interesting and informative reading them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bullin82 0 #38 August 7, 2009 Wow all these years and this is the first time i have ever heard about tipping lol. I just always brought beer for the end of the day i thought i was just being friendly so maybe they thought was my wy of tipping lol. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cutaway68 4 #39 August 7, 2009 Oh No... Tipping with beer!!! Skydiving is going to get a bad name if that happens. Next thing you know, students will be buying their A licenses with a case of imported barley pops. Don't Pull Low... Unless You ARE!!! The pessimist says, "It can't get any worse than this." The optimist says, "Sure, it can." Be fun, have safe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bullin82 0 #40 August 7, 2009 lol...the beer thing is strictly for POST jumping pleasure or bad weather days you all know that. i mean what else is there to do on a windy day?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 144 #41 August 7, 2009 Quote It's not necessarily expected most places, but it sure does brighten up the day of someone who probably eats more ramen for dinner than you do. Wendy P. I don't agree with tipping in a sport or hobby situation and I think this whole topic is a reflection of what NickDG talks about with the commercialization of skydiving. It used to be that instructors were weekend warriors etc who taught for fun or "to give back to the sport". I am not naive enough to think that skydiving can return to that lifestyle. Tipping increases the cost and therefore the ability of many people to participate in something that is already very expensive. I accept that tandems are a one off lifetime experience and therefore the whole beer tradition does not really apply. I know that in the US you have a culture of tipping - personally I have grown to hate it. It becomes a cultural "norm" you feel pressured into tipping 10-20% to someone in a restaurant that has spent less than 5 minutes of their time attending to you. I might earn alot more than the 20 year old waiter but with a family and being the only earner - I can tell you my 9 year old has more disposable income than I doExperienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baksteen 84 #42 August 7, 2009 QuoteIt used to be that instructors were weekend warriors etc who taught for fun or "to give back to the sport". I am not naive enough to think that skydiving can return to that lifestyle. At club style DZ's it probably still IS that way. That is certainly the case at my DZ anyway. Everyone is a volunteer. Only TM's and their videots used to get a small commission, but we can't do tandems anymore. I'd never heard of skydivers getting tips until I came on here. Myself, I tipped exactly once; for an especially nice opening the one time I paid a packer. But where I jump, a soda or beer is much more appreciated than cash."That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #43 August 7, 2009 QuoteIt used to be that instructors were weekend warriors etc who taught for fun or "to give back to the sport". OK, so what about the 'full time' warriors? These are the guys who spend all week at the DZ, who show up to make one or two tandems on a Tuesday morning. The same guys who have no income if it rains or the wind picks up. No DZ could exist with just weekend warriors, and the full timers rely on skydiving to pay their bills and keep them fed. Don't they deserve to make a few extra bucks if the student feels so inclined? Let's remember that giving a tip is optional. I'm a weekend warrior who used to be a full timer. Back in the day if I could make another $30 or $40 in tips, that's like making one more working jump per day. Once I got a 'day job' I stopped taking a paycheck from the DZ. All of the money I make goes on my DZ account and gets spent on fun jumps or skydiving equiipment. I give 100% back to the sport, why is that if a student feels like I took care of them, they shouldn't be able to show with a few extra bucks? The days I work at the DZ (and don't take a penny) I spend money on gas to drive there and back, and I usually end up going out for dinner because it's late and I'm too tired to cook. In those cases, an extra $20 in my pocket pays for those out of pockets costs. Let's remember that giving a tip is optional. QuoteTipping increases the cost and therefore the ability of many people to participate in something that is already very expensive. Let's remember that giving a tip is optional. QuoteI accept that tandems are a one off lifetime experience and therefore the whole beer tradition does not really apply. I don't drink beer, so it's never been a tradition for me. I also have worked (in skydiving) with several people who were recovering alchoholics, and I shudder at the tought of a student handing over a case of beer to any of them. Cash is king. You like beer? Spend it on beer. Need gas in your car? Fill er up. Let's remember that giving a tip is optional. Alot of what I see in the way of the anti-tipping crowd are those who have never worked in skydiving. Being a full time jumper, financially, is a tough way to go, but we need people like that in skydiving. These are the people who make being at the DZ priority one, and keep the props turning while the weekend warriors and fun jumpers are busy with other things. Not to exclude the weekend warriors though, anyone who works on a DZ knows what it's like on jump 10 or 12 of a hot summer day. Manifest already has every load filled up through sunset, and it will take every instructor and every rig just to get all the students up before dark. You might be tired of hungry, but you need to be professional, and ensure that your last student gets the same care and attention to safety as your first. It's a job, and sometimes it's a bitch of a job. If a student can afford a few extra bucks, and feels like it's the right thing to do, then they should. If it's a college kid who spent his last dime to pay for the jump, nobody would ever expect a tip, or hold it against the kid for not tipping. Let's remember that giving a tip is optional. Quoteyou feel pressured into tipping 10-20% to someone in a restaurant that has spent less than 5 minutes of their time attending to you. In the US, servers only get paid $2 or $3 dollars an hour, which is actually only about 30% of the legal minnimum wage, and the reason they get so little is because of the tips. Even if they only spend five min. with you, in the US the tips are their primary source of income, so when you go to a restaurant, be sure to factor in about 15% more than the menu prices to cover the tip. It might feel kind of like scam, bit without the tips, servers would be making $12 to $15 a night for a dinner service, and we can all agree that's not enough to live on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
siddacious 0 #44 August 7, 2009 In the US we tip. In the EU you have VAT. Take your pick.A dolor netus non dui aliquet, sagittis felis sodales, dolor sociis mauris, vel eu libero cras. Interdum at. Eget habitasse elementum est. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #45 August 7, 2009 QuoteIn the US we tip. In the EU you have VAT. Take your pick.there is no relation. Go back to your studies.scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lewmonst 0 #46 August 7, 2009 Quote The instructor is an employee of the DZ. Incorrect, actually. Instructors are independent contractors who only get paid when they take a customer. Instructors get no benefits, no health insurance, no workers comp, no pay on rainy days. Out of their per jump pay, they must pay their own taxes and health insurance (if they choose to get it, which, sadly, many don't). It's a living, but generally paycheck-to-paycheck. Every little bit helps. So tips are not expected, but definitely appreciated. It is work. It is fun work. But it's still work and the instructor is still risking their life on every jump. The heavier a tandem passenger is, the more work it is, especially over 200lbs. A good instructor makes it look easy, but the reality is it's not always easy. Most passengers are completely unaware of how much work the instructor is doing to ensure their safety, comfort and enjoyment of the jump. Don't tip if you don't want. Don't worry about it. A genuine "Thank you" goes a long way too.http://www.exitshot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #47 August 7, 2009 Quote In the US we tip. In the EU you have VAT. Take your pick. What are you talking about??? They are not even remotely the same thing (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LyraM45 0 #48 August 7, 2009 Quote Quote ...it is raining today and I get the feeling his jump will have to be postponed :( Probably should have tipped the weatherman. Damn straight! Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thrillstalker 0 #49 August 7, 2009 QuoteI would hope that it is not his/her job to save my son's life. Isn't it his/her job to do a good job and be well trained to do a tandem jump with someone else? I don't see the instructor as someone who will save my son's life. falling at 120mph for two miles then under a piece of nylon for another mile. i would say thats saving a life. you risk death every time you jump. goes to say your dead till you decide to pull."Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #50 August 8, 2009 Quote Let's remember that giving a tip is optional. Umm... I sure hope I can articulate this well. The OP makes it sound like he's challenging "tipping" on some business ethics basis. Whatever. "Let's remember that giving a tip is optional." Dave has it nailed right there. I've found that when I'm offered a tip it's from 1 of 2 types of people: The first is someone who just did a "bucket list" AFF jump and had enough fun and felt happy enough about the experience to want to go the extra mile and express some "extra" thanks. I accept those tips and think (okay beat me up about it) that that personality walks away from the DZ feeling pretty cool about the whole thing. The second type is the person who seem like they want very much to continue to learn and may be giving a tip because they want to make a good impression or gain favor. I refuse those tips and ask 'em to put the bucks away against another jump. Anyone thinking about tips before a jump even happens seems sorta kinda a little maybe wound too tight. Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
