Andy9o8 0 #126 May 31, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Then why are they doing it that way? Isn't jumping hazardous enough without taking unnecessary risk to save a buck or two? It's a $5 HnP. If it's literally going to cost a buck or two, yeah, it matters. Once again, is safety worth a "buck or two"? Why not just dive out, as instructed? Well, you should. But people are fallible; they're creatures of habit, and sometimes they just plain forget. We're not talking about a major brain fart, like forgetting to cut away before pulling silver. It's anticipatable - by the DZO, who employs and sets the procedures for the pilot, as well as the pilot himself - that a small percentage of jumpers will forget to not exit poised on a low-tail aircraft. That being the case, although it's negligent for the jumper to jump up, it's ALSO negligent for the DZO and pilot to have tail-low configurations on jump run. The term "personal responsibility" is grossly over-used, even by sharp people, to connote unilateral responsibility. And that's where this thread tends to break down. But in most interactions between and among people in society, many responsibilities are shared, and not unilateral. This issue is a good example of it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krip 2 #127 May 31, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Then why are they doing it that way? Isn't jumping hazardous enough without taking unnecessary risk to save a buck or two? It's a $5 HnP. If it's literally going to cost a buck or two, yeah, it matters. Once again, is safety worth a "buck or two"? Why not just dive out, as instructed? Well, you should. But people are fallible; they're creatures of habit, and sometimes they just plain forget. We're not talking about a major brain fart, like forgetting to cut away before pulling silver. It's anticipatable - by the DZO, who employs and sets the procedures for the pilot, as well as the pilot himself - that a small percentage of jumpers will forget to not exit poised on a low-tail aircraft. That being the case, although it's negligent for the jumper to jump up, it's ALSO negligent for the DZO and pilot to have tail-low configurations on jump run. The term "personal responsibility" is grossly over-used, even by sharp people, to connote unilateral responsibility. And that's where this thread tends to break down. But in most interactions between and among people in society, many responsibilities are shared, and not unilateral. This issue is a good example of it. Interesting opinionOTOH there are other options: Low tail aircraft shouldn't be used for jump ops. No H&P's any where, any time.No jumpers hanging on the outside of the airplane on jump run. (remember the porter that lost it's Horiz stabilizer)DZO required to get a legal opinion if every specific jump op is safe before the fact.We've read some of the free legal opinions in this thread. DZO's Fun Jumper LawyersOne Jump Wonder Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #128 May 31, 2009 Quote DZO's Fun Jumper But their interests are not the same. And that's why your cute response is not much more insightful than a dog barking at a passing car. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BDashe 0 #129 May 31, 2009 Hmmmm, except that he makes an excellent argument for the slippery slope and what would become necessary for the stellar student in question or speuci to make skydiving legally acceptable. Sad truth is, people like that will ALWAYS find a way to try and get money out of a like situation, so taking a stand against their stupidity now is absolutely the best option. If it is any consolation, I'm sure Krip feels bad if his post wasn't in line with your opinion. Good try though.So there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #130 May 31, 2009 Has everyone pretty much agreed on exit seperation on free-fliers, flat fliers, students, and tandems? I think most have. Can you put the exit order in any aircraft in any fashion? YES! (fine print: if you know what you're doing.) So while we know we can do something any way we want, we as an industry have come to accept flat fliers largest group to smallest, then free fliers largest group to smallest, then high pullers and students followed by tandems then wingsuits. This has become the "norm" most everywhere. So, why don't people realise that this issue is going the same way? Just because you can do something doesn't mean it really is the best practice as a whole. Putting jumpers out while still in climb attitude in any King Air with a low tail (90, 99) NEEDLESSLY increases the risk for the jumper. And I'm sorry it doesn't cost the DZ a dollar or two to power back for level flight and put them out. IT DOES NOT and anyone who argues it costs that much has their priorities completely out of whack if that's worth a life. If he is losing money at 5 bucks a hop n pop then raise the price and level off! Why is this even an arguement? The danger is clear. This HISTORY is there and it is TOTALLY PREVENTABLE! What more can really be said? And to the lawyers who keep asking me to testify for your client stop contacting me. I don't do lawsuits. I try to educate people to stay alive longer.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #131 May 31, 2009 Another interesting case of a chain of events...My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zoom1 0 #132 June 1, 2009 i'm not a lawyer wannabe but i think when the non jumping jury hears that this could have been prevented by cutting and leveling out , that most dropzones cut to prevent this, and lodi does not do this to save money it won't sound good.i'm not saying it's right but knowing how suehappy some people are why would you run the risk? i think the jury will say this procedure was a unnessary risk that put jumper's at risk . this seems like a accident just waiting to happen ,maybe both parties are to blame. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #133 June 1, 2009 You are correct Sir !! +1smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #134 June 1, 2009 Quotei'm not a lawyer wannabe but i think when the non jumping jury hears that this could have been prevented by cutting and leveling out , that most dropzones cut to prevent this, and lodi does not do this to save money it won't sound good.i'm not saying it's right but knowing how suehappy some people are why would you run the risk? i think the jury will say this procedure was a unnessary risk that put jumper's at risk . this seems like a accident just waiting to happen ,maybe both parties are to blame. Yes, that's how a jury might think (or not think). Or they might just think, skydivers are taking a chance and bad outcomes are part of it. I'm more interested in what a jury of peers (in other words us) would say. We probably fall into 3 camps based on the 'evidence' as we know it: 1) not cutting is dangerous. Should be done, damn the expense. (or the possible loss of access to HnPs on every load) 2) not doing poised exits is fine, and clearly explained at this location. Many jump planes (esp helicopters) have specific procedure to follow. 3) no one should ever sue anyone for anything in the sport. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #135 June 1, 2009 >Why not just dive out, as instructed? You should! Configuring for jump run can also help prevent injuries when you screw that up. This approach works well in skydiving. You should pack your main carefully, maintain it well, and have a good body position/speed when you open - but you should still have a reserve if you screw that up. You should be able to judge your altitude by looking at the ground - but you should also have an altimeter to back yourself up. You should always pull at a safe altitude - but you might also want to use an AAD in case you screw up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zoom1 0 #136 June 1, 2009 i'd say not cutting when you know the jumper and he's experenced and done this before, go for it fine ,but when it's sop no matter who's on the jump don't sound like a good idea. i've got over 100 cessna jumps and went to jumptown to jump the otter(thanks for helping me out and being so friendly) and you have a lot on your mind, new jump plane, new dropzone, new people, checking spot at a new landing area, thinking landing pattern, it's a lot to think about ,nobody want's to fuck up at a new dropzone , then (hopefully)someone say's "be carefull on your exit so you don't get hit by the tail " it's a lot for a new jumper. sure he can say no thanks but chances are he won't want to look like a pussy and peer pressure will push him out the door.we all know student's and low # jumper's somtimes overload and don't always do what there told, just a low jumpers 2 cents.ok i'm clear flame away. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #137 June 1, 2009 thanks, Zoom....good reminder....sometimes we forget what it was like to be a young skydiver.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #138 June 1, 2009 zoom, look at my jump numbers, i'm coming from much the same place as you. yes it can be overwhelming, whatever; the point is: you make the mistake once, it gets pointed out, you shouldn't make it again on another jump. Making a mistake is one thing, not learning from it is something else.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #139 June 1, 2009 Quotethanks, Zoom....good reminder....sometimes we forget what it was like to be a young skydiver. When I finally got the A sheet signed, I did a tour of the Cal DZs. Lodi was one of the first. I think it's fair to say that it's not for everyone - the notion of self reliance is more present there. It's much like the better dive boats in LA. People who don't listen, and don't ask, should go somewhere else. (well, really, should TUG). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NovaTTT 1 #140 June 1, 2009 TUG??? TUB!!! "Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #141 June 1, 2009 Quote TUG??? TUB!!! I don't want to get hit by their errant throws. Since I don't golf, it's safer for me to send them there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piratemike 0 #142 June 1, 2009 QuoteI have recently found out that Bill and Kathy Dause from Lodi are being slapped with a lawsuit in the millions that could easily shut them down if the fellow skydiver who is bringing on the suit prevails. From what I understand a skydiver with about 100 jumps seriously hurt himself jumping out of the plane and hitting the tail, which is a real tragedy. I found a newspaper report in the local newspaper here: http://www.lodinews.com/articles/2008/04/26/news/7_parachute_080426.txt Although I feel for the guy and yet I am not gonna stop skydiving because of this either. You? And while I am not a regular at Lodi, I have to say, but over all the years I jumped there Bill and Kathy represent to me not only a rare dropzone that isnt about profits, but all about jumping, and maybe the last bastion of freedom where the waiver still fits on the back of the ticket for those few who somehow have not heard yet that they can get hurt or killed doing this... in other word... Lodi is one of the few places where you don't have to cover up your intelligence and responsibility for self with a dozen pages of legalese and a sticker on your forehead that tells you at all times that THE GROUND MIGHT BE CLOSER THAN IT APPEARS. My questions to the skydiving community here in this forum: Is anybody else troubled by this? And second... if Lodi has to shut down as a result of this, are we as skydivers, those who ever jumped there and those who will never be able to do so then....are we okay with this? Who would possibly benefit from this? And what can we do to support Bill and Kathy? So there is a lot of posts in reply to you already. This thread is likley getting out of hand. To answer your question, I am troubled by this. Bill and Kathy do not deserve the lawsuit that they are getting over this guy. I do not find myself at lodi often enough as it's a great place to be, and I highly respect how Bill and Kathy run that place. The indications are that the injured party referenced in this lawsuit was told several times not to do what he was doing when he got hurt. I am sorry that the guy was injured so badly, but he had enough jumps in him to know what the deal is. Also, I have a lodi ticket with me right here, it says right on it "THE PERSON USING THIS TICKET ASSUMES ALL RISK OF PERSONAL INJURY AND LOSS OR DAMAGE TO PROPERTY" Anyhow, I hope that this does not seriously effect The Parachute Center, it's management, or it's customers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crustySCSA69 0 #143 June 1, 2009 Quotei'm not a lawyer wannabe but i think when the non jumping jury hears that this could have been prevented by cutting and leveling out , that most dropzones cut to prevent this, and lodi does not do this to save money it won't sound good.i'm not saying it's right but knowing how suehappy some people are why would you run the risk? i think the jury will say this procedure was a unnessary risk that put jumper's at risk . this seems like a accident just waiting to happen ,maybe both parties are to blame. Are you a friend of this guy? Did his lawyers ask you to post that bolded part ? Because I have never jumped anything bigger than a Cessna (and we told them don't bother on those) ANYWHERE where they leveled out and cut for a climbing pass. ANYWHERE, EVER. If you want to get out before altitude, they may let you as a courtesy, but they will rarely (never in my experience) level out and give you a cut. It is completely uneccessary. And anyone (of ANY experience beyond student ... meaning even 1 jump past that status) that stands in that door, glances at the tail and doesn't think, I think I'll dive down and out... does not have enough brain matter to be doing this in the first place (ESPECIALLY after being told, DON'T JUMP UP). Take a little responsibility for what you are doing. IF you are that much of a 'nanny' stater ... go play croquet (with soft rubber balls and mallets so no one gets injured). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #144 June 2, 2009 QuoteBecause I have never jumped anything bigger than a Cessna (and we told them don't bother on those) ANYWHERE where they leveled out and cut for a climbing pass. ANYWHERE, EVER. We do cuts on both Caravans I jump now and previously on the Otters I jumped we had cuts on those also for climbing passes. This is pretty standard at most DZ's I've jumped at in the last 5 years.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krip 2 #145 June 2, 2009 Quote Quote DZO's Fun Jumper But their interests are not the same. And that's why your cute response is not much more insightful than a dog barking at a passing car. Hi A Sorry but this isn't your normal hangout "Speakers corner". You've got your opinion I've got mine. My opinion was just cuter than yours and was meant to do no harm. OTOH Your posts among others can result in some significant changes in the sport, not in safety but in a significant increase in the cost of a lift ticket as DZO's have to factor in the cost of defending themselves from frioulous law suits supported by other skydivers. Some of the posts in this thread includeing yours go directly against the principal of skydivers don't sue. From what I'm reading its obvious that you Andy among others think that skydiver that are injured due to their own stupidity should sue in spite of the waiver, and you among others are willing to help their bottom feeding lawyers, and condon other jumpers that do. Andy you are what you are and I don't think your cute. If this thread is any indication. We've turned a corner in the sport that I thought I'd never see. To badOne Jump Wonder Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #146 June 2, 2009 Quote Because I have never jumped anything bigger than a Cessna (and we told them don't bother on those) ANYWHERE where they leveled out and cut for a climbing pass. ANYWHERE, EVER. Come to Kapowsin. We'll give you a cut. We do it for safety reasons. John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #147 June 2, 2009 QuoteFrom what I'm reading its obvious that you Andy among others think that skydiver that are injured due to their own stupidity should sue in spite of the waiver, and you among others are willing to help their bottom feeding lawyers, and condon other jumpers that do. Nope. You haven't read, or understood, my posts. You certainly do NOT know my mind. In any event, I stand by my posts. Oh, and it takes absolutely zero imagination to lawyer-bash. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #148 June 2, 2009 Quote Oh, and it takes absolutely zero imagination to lawyer-bash. Fish in a barrel? Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #149 June 2, 2009 Quote...others think that skydiver that are injured due to their own stupidity should sue in spite of the waiver... Man, my reading comprehension must be waaaaay off or I missed reading a few posts. I didn't see one post that said anything like thatMy reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zoom1 0 #150 June 2, 2009 nope ,don't know this guy and it sounds like i'd rather not.i think if you look back through the post's most of the expierenced jumpers like the cut. a lawyer didn't ask me to post but you know fucken well for a few bucks they can get a pilot to come to court and say it for them.i take responsibility for everything i do.i was to be last out on a h&p hoping to get 3g but only got 2g , i made the jump (at jump #51) becouse i didn't want to be that "nanny" i should have never made the jump(even though it was fun).staying within your "comfort zone" and expierence level don't make you a "nanny". just becouse a few posters say he might have a case and win don't mean we think it's right , i would never sue for something like this (it would make me feel like a "nanny") but lot's of people will. i wonder if dropzones that don't cut will start cutting now? even if lodi wins the case how much is this going to cost them?(these are questions not statements) don 't forget to flame me for my bad grammar Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
