nacmacfeegle 0 #26 January 9, 2003 "And what would those advantages be?" I guess it would be the whacked unconscious (which is why we all have a cypres as opposed to admitting that we might be out to lunch at pull trime) and having a cypres fire scenario....The round will put you down relatively gently without any pilot input, but I guess a big fluffy F111 at 1:1 loading on stowed brakes would be similar? Probably going downwind too I'd imagine...-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #27 January 9, 2003 Yeah... but my 120 F111 loaded to 1.6 on half breaks won't put me down gently while sleeping... I'm figuring in that senario, its the least of my hassles. t It's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #28 January 9, 2003 "but my 120 F111 loaded to 1.6 on half breaks won't put me down gently" Ah Tonto, you are missing my sense of irony....Ask peeps here why they have a cypres, and I'll betcha 90% will say its in case they are whacked unconscious, I just find it ironic that their cypres will save them, then their reserve will smack them up on landing..... This is the only scenario I can imagine (for 90% of my jumping anyways) where a round reserve has any advantage over a square. Of course, the disadvantages far outweigh the advantages. I am far more likely to need my reserve due to a mal, in which case give me my similarly loaded (1.6ish, and yes, I know its a big loading for F111, but I can prove I can land it when, and where required) square reserve anyday. And at least I am man enough to admit that statistically I am far more likley to have a cypres fire whilst being altitude 'unaware' rather than being unconscious and I am prepared to make the risk trade off, and know the ramifications of my gear choice. -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #29 January 9, 2003 You're an honest person with a healthy ego. In the old days, I regularly punched through a grand. Why? Because I was young and dumb and beleived I had instant reflexes. Funny how getting better at stuff makes you want to do less. Putting a cypress in my rig has made me WAY more alti aware than before - as sucking it down now means garenteed proof of fuck-up. I do a lot of AFF. I'm quite current and quite alti aware. I do worry about the unconsious senario, as I have been smacked in the chops really hard after wrestling a students hand to the ripcord, but agree that loss of alti awareness is more likely to cause the cypress to fire. I have no problem with the wing loading on my reserve. There is some concern among other members when I hook it 180 after a mal, but I seem to know what I'm doing. Our DZ is 5500ft AGL and over 100F in the summertime - Johannesberg, South Africa. 16 reserve rides... and I know 17 is out there waiting. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 187 #30 January 9, 2003 Quote "but my 120 F111 loaded to 1.6 on half breaks won't put me down gently" Ah Tonto, you are missing my sense of irony....Ask peeps here why they have a cypres, and I'll betcha 90% will say its in case they are whacked unconscious, I just find it ironic that their cypres will save them, then their reserve will smack them up on landing..... That's one reason I go with lots of nylon for plan B. If I pitch of my own accord, I have a 99 overhead. If the magic box opens a canopy, it's going to be a 218 in brakes. Either way, I try to skydive as though the gizmo was inop, since it's like a sidearm - better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it, since when you need it you need it BADLY. Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #31 January 9, 2003 QuoteAnd what would those advantages be? If they're so great, why are we not jumping round mains? Advantages I've heard: 1) (already mentioned here numerous times) better if you are unable to steer the canopy 2) (going against what I read here, and being ignorant to this, I am not sure why this would be true) less likely to have a malfunction on a round 3) (once again, being ignorant, I have no idea of why this would be true) I heard rounds are better if you have a lower cutaway All of that being said, I do have square reserve which (if my main was cutaway) would be probably loaded just under 1 (that would honestly depend on how much beer, salt, etc I had the day before...water retentions really plays around with how much I weigh.) I have no intention of getting a round reserve, but I guess I was just curious! I guess why people don't jump rounds (as said here before) is that people don't spot for them, and it's nice to make it back to the dz. But, if I have a cutaway, having a short walk back to the packing area is the least of my concerns.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #32 January 9, 2003 I'm guessing you and I can steer - so we'll count that out. Rounds have more malfunction modes than squares. Lineovers and inversions are but 2 of them. Squares open WAY faster than rounds. That's why they have sliders, so I don't know where the low cutaway thing came in. I guess if you've never jumped and you have only 1 chute - round it would be, otherwise square. As for walking back - you may be over trees, over water etc. There's more to a square than saving you a walk back to the DZ. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #33 January 9, 2003 Quote Rounds have more malfunction modes than squares. Lineovers and inversions are but 2 of them. I don't understand how a round has a greater chance of a lineover. (I'm obviously not a rigger, so I'm just asking for more information.) Quote Squares open WAY faster than rounds. That's why they have sliders, so I don't know where the low cutaway thing came in. Once again, I plead ignorance. But, I wouldn't have posted that rumor/myth/whatever if I did not hear it from an extremely reliable source. QuoteAs for walking back - you may be over trees, over water etc. There's more to a square than saving you a walk back to the DZ. I guess since I jump in an area with few hazards and mostly corn, I figure a round is at least steerable enough to get me away from power lines, fences, roads, or the few trees in the area. Once again, I'm not considering a round, however, I was just curious as to the advantages.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #34 January 9, 2003 Quotebut we moved to square reserves on club gear about 10 years back to simplify the 1st jump course. Training on 2 different types of canopy, 2 different landings etc was just too much for most students to absorb. When all the rigs at the dz I used to instruct at had been switched to square reserves I asked the dzo if we could dispense with teaching how to fly and land a round. He insisted that we continue to teach it, because the student might do jumps at another dz that still used rounds. He felt it was important for them to have at least been told about it once. Are there any dz's in the US that still use rounds for student reserves? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smiles 0 #35 January 9, 2003 my 26ft. army green baby cobra with 4 line release (Eddie Grimm -Niagra Parachutes- Canada) saved my ass sweet twice. Just got my square last year!(been jumping 15 yrs. logged 46 round jumps) Both will save your ass, you can fly a square...a round flys you!!! Smiles Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,433 #36 January 9, 2003 >I don't understand how a round has a greater chance of a lineover. Well, not a lineover per se, but they can malfunction in more ways. Inversion is the big addition. (Note that square parachute can't really invert; it's easy for a round that doesn't have anti-inversion netting.) >>Squares open WAY faster than rounds. That's why they have >>sliders, so I don't know where the low cutaway thing came in. Now, to be fair, squares made to open fast open faster than rounds. Squares made to open normally (or slowly) open more slowly than rounds; a round will slam you worse than a ragged-out Raven II. In addition, many modern rounds (BRS-type specifically) have sliders specifically to _slow_down_ their openings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,148 #37 January 9, 2003 The one thing about round malfunctions is that a larger percentage of them is survivable. A "spinner" under a round isn't the same as under a square, particularly not under a round reserve (i.e. probably a flat circular or conical canopy with a minimal number of holes in it). Maybe not pleasantly, but you get to keep breathing and probably thinking. But the chances of a reserve malfunction aren't such that I jump a round reserve regularly. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,433 #38 January 9, 2003 >The one thing about round malfunctions is that a larger percentage >of them is survivable. Definitely. A spinning mal isn't as big a deal - you're not actually going anywhere, so it doesn't matter too much if you're spinning. And if you're going to have a main-reserve entanglement, a round is the reserve to have (packed in a freebag or free sleeve of course.) We had several dual deployments at SLI, and the main would just drift around the round reserve and try halfheartedly to fly off in some other direction - but the jumper just kept coming straight down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
relyon 0 #39 January 10, 2003 Quote ...(Note that square parachute can't really invert; it's easy for a round that doesn't have anti-inversion netting.)... True inversion, no, but I've had the outside end cell rib as far in as the center cell between the B and C lines (ok, it was CRW). I was amazed I was able to work it out. On another occasion I had severe gusts fold the left side cleanly up under the right on final (about 50'). I could see the entire left topskin for a moment. My Lightning has saved my bacon more than once. Ok, enough "No shit, there I was ..." Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #40 January 10, 2003 A friend of mine rode in a line over type malfunction (a May-West) and was unhurt. I've heard of others doing the same thing with minor or no injuries. Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #41 January 10, 2003 I wouldn't know what the situation is in the US, but in SA all student reserves are square, and no students may change DZ's prior to A licence without undergoing full re-training for that DZ. We're small - about 20 dropzones - so can keep things pretty tight. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #42 January 10, 2003 Rounds have a greater chance of a lineover for several reasons. A few are - the lines are longer. You really have to have some talent to get one on a square. Again, no slider, so nothing is controling the lines during deployment. The "daiper" (sp) was developed to help prevent just this on some round reserves - so it's a real problem. Opening speed - much slower, plus you need to fall a long way to get linestretch on a reserve, again because of line length. Also, the canopy inflates from the top, through the apex, so presurisation takes a while. True, once open, that's it - no brakes to unstow etc Glad you have few obsticals at your DZ Glad you have a square reserve. Technology will always win. The abacus was a fantastic leap forward, and there are some people who can calculate using one faster than us on a PC, but you won't see them on every desk. t It's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #43 January 10, 2003 Only people who have done a bunch of jumps on round mains should be allowed to jump round reserves. Hint, I have done 70 jumps on round mains including 3 malfunctions), deployed three round reserves and sold my last round reserve in 1985. I have not dropped a student with a round reserve in the last four years and my boss has made it clear that I am not to pack anymore round reserves in his loft. That whole snivel, snivel, snap opening sequence on rounds scares me. Pilot Emergency Parachutes usually contain rounds because most pilots are ignorant and arrogant. They are arrogant because riggers burn out trying to explain the advantages of squares to pilots who don't care. These are the same pilots who wear low speed parachutes while flying high speed airplanes. Will someone please explain what good a low speed round canopy will do if it shreds on opening? Skybytch, I strongly disagree with your former boss. Teaching round steering procedures to first jumpers _ when your DZ does not have round reserves - is worse than a waste of time. It is worse than a waste of time because it clouds students' minds with useless information. As for students visiting other DZs with different student equipment: first of all I discourage the practice. Secondly, the second DZ is responsible for re-training visiting students on their gear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dterrick 0 #44 January 10, 2003 Quotea round will slam you worse than a ragged-out Raven II. Bill speaks the truth on this one (as always). I fly a "ragged out" Raven II at close to 1:1 and it opens um, briskly even on a nice deployment. I had one terminal round ride under a LoPo 24 while on progression. NEVER have I been slammed so hard! NEVER have I been so glad to see something overhead. The landing was not much harder than what I get under said Raven if I mis-time the flare. Still, with no steering to speak of, my decision on what reserve style would be in my Beer rig was made that instant. *** So long as we respect the weaskest part of our system (jumper + gear + environment) little surperises will seldon grow into big problems. Dave Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend (Lennon/McCartney) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PeteW 0 #45 January 12, 2003 Two years ago I was doing my 12th jump which was a five second delay. After the five seconds I tossed the PC and wrapped it around my arm and trying to point I had flipped over on my back with the briday wrapped around my chest. At that time I pulled the reserve handle. As I was pulling the handle the briday was caught in my hand as well. During the opening I was worried about the main also deploying. As I looked up I saw a round, oh crap I am 234lbs. The landing was brutal, hurt like hell and screwed my knee up. I have a love/hate relationship with rounds. I never want to fly one again but at the time I was glad to see it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #46 January 13, 2003 QuoteSkybytch, I strongly disagree with your former boss. Oh, I disagreed with him too and for the same reasons you do. But he was the dzo/chief instructor and I was just a lowly 200 jump wonder JM-soon-to-be-I, so we did it his way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverbob 0 #47 January 14, 2003 Unless you are spotting for a round reserve and not relying solely on GPS or someone else spotting it can be a problem.Who Dares Wins Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fogobo 0 #48 May 17, 2010 I have had 8 round reserve rides back in the day with no problems. Also put 100 jumps on a bag deployed lo-po reserve that I jumped as a main when I was doing style (was 1/3 the weight of a PC). I recently had a square reserve ride with no problems. In terms of reliability, are there any numbers that support whether a square or round reserve is more likely to open? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #49 May 18, 2010 Quote are there any numbers that support whether a square or round reserve is more likely to open? Yes. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimjumper 25 #50 May 18, 2010 I bought a new rig in 1986 and being old school bought a round reserve against the recommendation of Manley Butler/Butler Parachutes. I bought a 28' Phantom by National Parachutes. After 3 months it needed to have a different diaper installed. 6 months later it needed to have a kevlar band installed on the lower lateral band after at least 2 incidents of failure. 1 year later, it was listed as recalled for possible acid mesh in the drive vents! I called Manley and was able to get a stock square reserve replacement in 2 weeks. I still have the round and used it during my rigger training. The differences between round and square are beyond most jumpers and some riggers. (By the way, Ihave about a hundred round jumps so I'm not biased either way) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
