The "Beer Line" vs. safety

[peek 20]

The "Beer Line" vs. safety

First of all, I'll give you my version of how the "beer line" originated, at least in my area. I'd like to hear your versions.

A bunch of Illinois jumpers go to Z-Hills in the 90's and come back as really "cool guys" because Florida is where it's happening in those days, blah, blah...

In Z-Hills at the time there was a packing area adjacent to the landing area, so for safety reasons, they put an old garden hose across the area, and if you crossed the landing area into the packing area, you crossed the "beer line". OK, so that was more or less a safety issue. You didn't want people clobbering someone packing.

So the "beer line" comes to Illinois. Since the landing and packing areas are not adjacent at this drop zone, they start making up beer lines that don't really have anything to do with safety. One is landing on pavement.

(Granted you want to discourage novice jumpers from landing on hard surfaces deliberately because they can fall down or get dragged by the wind and mess up their gear or the DZ gear.)

However, for creating an excuse for getting beer from experienced jumpers who have already done all the things on the traditional beer list and who have already bought beer they do this.


So fast-forward to present times. What I have seen the "beer line" turn into is a bunch or morons yelling "beer, beer" if someone's first point of contact happens to be on pavement. And this is where there isn't even a "beer list". That's not polictically correct or something now, or is it "beverage list", another watered down tradition?

So what does this have to do with safety?

Well, now we have novice skydivers who think that there is some "danger" to putting your foot on pavement during landing. Now I see perfectly good approachs to landings being botched at the end for fear of landing on pavement! And I have seen injuries too.

For no good reason!

(This is just like hearing about novice skydivers making that low turn to avoid an obstacle, when the turn is more dangerous sometimes than the obstacle.)


Why do we continue to do this? Well I'm not going to any more. I'm going to land on pavement in front of novice skydivers whenever I can remember to, to show them that it can be done safely if one concentrates.

Let the morons yell "Beer" if they want.

[kelel01 1]

If I'm headed for the asphalt, the only thing that's gonna distract me is, well . . . the asphalt. And I'm not gonna do a low turn to avoid owing beer - if anything it would be to avoid THE ASPHALT (which I still hope I wouldn't do).

Anyone who gets hurt trying to avoid OWING BEER is a moron. If you get hurt trying to avoid the asphalt, that's another story. Personally, I don't like landing on asphalt, but I'll take it over hooking in any day.

I don't think the beer line's the problem, especially when it's just determined by grass or asphalt.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

So what does this have to do with safety?

Being able to land accurately is an important safety skill. Having a beer line with nothing terribly dangerous on the other side allows peer pressure and ego to make jumper more accurate with their landings. This way, when it is for real, they can get down safely, avoiding injury instead of avoiding buying beer. If a jumper repeatly crosses the beer line, they have canopy control issues they need to work on.

One of the SCUBA diving associations stopped teaching buddy breathing because they were having problems. So, to avoid those training problems, they stopped teaching it/actually doing it under water. That does stop the problem, but then if the diver needs to do it for real, they aren't trained. A better solution would be to improve how buddy breathing was taught, not stop teaching it.

Derek

[Ron 7]

Quote

A bunch of Illinois jumpers go to Z-Hills in the 90's and come back as really "cool guys" because Florida is where it's happening in those days, blah, blah...

Still is

Quote

Well, now we have novice skydivers who think that there is some "danger" to putting your foot on pavement during landing. Now I see perfectly good approachs to landings being botched at the end for fear of landing on pavement! And I have seen injuries too.

I have seen it as well people turning to avoid laning on asphalt and instead smacking into the ground.

I'm with you, beer lines should be for saftey.

That being said, where our plane fuels and picks up jumpers is kinda a "beer zone"

Beer lines should be for safety, not just to get drinks.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Scrumpot 1]

I'm with you Gary!

I've been to places where even the jumper lands, runs out his landing (on the grass), pulls up JUST short of the pavement, and just the top skin of his canopy begins to touch some pavement, and a bunc of moron's begin yelling "BEER"!

They don't even have A CLUE as to what they are really intimating here, and it is LAME!

Like you, I've subsequently seen a lowbie heading for a mere sliver of pavement (an inactive taxi-way for instance), which he could have easily crossed over, or EVEN LANDED UPON clearly, with no issues ...instead toggle-whip his ass into the ground!!

Later, when asked why he did this (luckilly was only a bit banged up and dirty ...COULD HAVE BEEN WORSE!) ...Direct quote: "I knew I was heading toward the beer line".

Nice flat grass on BOTH sides of the supposed "beer line" too here mind you. So the turn most definitely was for absolutely no real SAFETY reason WHATSOEVER!

Now that said, there are places (still) where a safety issue could exist, and the "beer line" IS there for that purpose. Jumpers need to know this. The FIRST rule though, regardless ...should always be LAND SAFE FIRST, and if you don't know the difference, ...ASK! Risking life and limb for just the sake of a lousy case of beer (if even "enforced") is stupid.

-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[skyyhi 0]

Well, I know there is a beer line in the student landing area at Elsinore, but it is there to keep novice jumpers from getting too near the buildings and getting caught up in the crazy winds that come off the buildings. . .no beer line in the main landing area. . .

Heres hoping that the beer line at most dz's is for safety reasons only. . .

________________________________________
Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ
FGF #6
Darcy

[larsrulz 0]

I think Gary's just complaining because he still owes beer for landing on the pavement earlier this year! I was there....I saw it!

I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

The only dropzones I have seen beer lines at are ones that have specific safety reasons to do so. At Raeford, the beer line extends from the third bush on Doc Brown Road all the way across the main landing area to the edge of the ramp. It's out far enough from the trees, the packing pavilion, the mockup, and the spectator fence in front of the bar to keep jumpers away from trouble. It also serves to keep jumpers out of "The Raeford Dragon" when the winds are blowing over the trees, parallel to the runway. Our "regular" swoop lane is setup straight down that line on the "safe" side, thus effectively moving the safe-to-land area for non-swooping jumpers out another 30 feet.

Yes, you are going to buy beer if you bust our beer line. If you bust that line at our dropzone, you would be flying straight into spectators, metal mockups, buildings, and trees.

Chuck

[AggieDave 6]

The tarmac is a beer line at my DZ. There's a reason though, besides tarmac and beer. Its an active city airport, there are planes taxiing by, starting, planes parked along the flight line (the tarmac next to the grass area) as well as a couple of helicopters there as well.

We've had jumpers land on the tarmac, some of our home grown jumpers, they landed safely, then very quickly gathered their gear and got off the tarmac due to the understanding that planes are taxing by.

Beyond that if you land on the "outside of the triangle" (outside the large triangle field made from the flightline, taxi-way and runway) then you owe beer. That's due to the hazards in those locations. You have safe spots to land, generally speaking, outside the triangle, BUT they're hairy and have plenty of obsticles.

We do have a swoop lane next to the DZ's hanger that's D-license/S&TA approval landing area. It has basically no outs to the sides once you commit due to obsticles, so that one is obvious as well.


So I guess I'm trying to say (although rambling to it) is that stating that the tarmac is the beer line may not mean simply the tarmac, its everything else as well.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[veter_ 0]

Quote

I'm going to land on pavement in front of novice skydivers whenever I can remember to, to show them that it can be done safely if one concentrates.

Bad, bad, bad... By showing to novices that landing on concrete is easy and safe, you may incourage them to try. The result can be disastrous.

It takes 100-200 jumps for novices to finally dial in the flare, feel it and do it as second nature. Concrete does not forgive the miscalculated flare.

Besides, there are often downdrafts coming from heated asphalt down the grass, making flare less effective or not working at all.

On my 42nd jump, I miscalculated my landing and was coming towards the runway. "No problem", I thought, and flared. Flare did not slow down me at all (downdraft), and I hit the edge of runway at full speed, breaking tailbone and both wrists and losing a lot of blood.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

One of the SCUBA diving associations stopped teaching buddy breathing because they were having problems. So, to avoid those training problems, they stopped teaching it/actually doing it under water. That does stop the problem, but then if the diver needs to do it for real, they aren't trained. A better solution would be to improve how buddy breathing was taught, not stop teaching it.

Buddy breathing got phased out because it became SOP to carry two regulators. This change was in response to the reality that buddy breathing was turning a single diver out of air situation into a double fatality too often. That skill requires too much currency to rely on in an emergency situation.

As for beer lines, Hollister and Skydance have em, and both are driven by real concerns. (though I think they burned some of the boundary markers at the AB)

[SkydiveMO 0]

Quote

I think Gary's just complaining because he still owes beer for landing on the pavement earlier this year! I was there....I saw it!

I’ll second that! Our beer line is meant to keep jumpers from landing on or across the active taxiway. Gary is pouting because he came up short landing in the hotdog area in front of the hangar. Had he been a student or low experience jumper landing in this area we would have pulled him aside and explained the safety issues of the landing. Gary knew what he was doing and just came up short shooting accuracy… so we shout BEER! I look at it this way if you have no problem drinking the community beer then you should have no problem supplying it when you break the DZ rules. At our level there aren’t many rules left to break but the beer line remains, I still pay up. Heck I have a car load of beer I owe right now as I just made jump 2,000.

[HydroGuy 0]

Quote

Quote

One of the SCUBA diving associations stopped teaching buddy breathing because they were having problems. So, to avoid those training problems, they stopped teaching it/actually doing it under water. That does stop the problem, but then if the diver needs to do it for real, they aren't trained. A better solution would be to improve how buddy breathing was taught, not stop teaching it.

Buddy breathing got phased out because it became SOP to carry two regulators. This change was in response to the reality that buddy breathing was turning a single diver out of air situation into a double fatality too often. That skill requires too much currency to rely on in an emergency situation.

Lots of stuff that happens in diving is contradictary. One of the biggest tech agencies has a deep air class (200 ft plus) , but the agency won't allow training dives below 175-180 feet because too many people have reactions to the PPO levels even at that depth, let alone over 200.

The DIR/Halcyon guys still practice buddy breathing, like at the start of EVERY dive. They aren't much fun to dive with, but they are safer than anyone.

Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

The DIR/Halcyon guys still practice buddy breathing, like at the start of EVERY dive. They aren't much fun to dive with, but they are safer than anyone.

But they're *so* much fun to make fun of!

I knew Mike Kane before he bought into hog diving, when he was making fun of Terry and Troy for it. Even after, he was still doing 180' deco dives in shorts, in 39F water.

I do like how DIR has tried to relabel buddy diving as "team" diving. I'm usually alone, but when I am with others, I take it seriously, as it should be.

[skybum1 0]

Gary,
Are you going to post this on the Archway message board?

"Remember to be nice to people on your way up cause you meet them on your way down." Jimmy D.

[bob.dino 0]

There's currently two beer lines at my DZ: one at the line that deliniates the spectator & packing area from the landing area, and one temporary one where we're growing new grass.

[peek 20]

veter: By showing to novices that landing on concrete is easy and safe, you may incourage them to try.

peek: I seriously doubt it. I'm specifically talking about people who seem to me to be terrified of landing on pavement, and not even the least bit curious about whether they can do it.

veter: On my 42nd jump, I miscalculated my landing and was coming towards the runway. "No problem", I thought, and flared. Flare did not slow down me at all (downdraft), and I hit the edge of runway at full speed, breaking tailbone and both wrists and losing a lot of blood.

peek: I'm sorry that happened to you. I wish you had done a good PLF because I think that could have saved you.

[peek 20]

After some fluid-based thread hijacking and some very unglobal-like commentary.....

I'm glad to hear some beer lines exist for safety reasons.

Reminder: Pavement isn't the only "hard" surface. I am not that familiar with the desert but I have heard that it can get quite hard packed. So can grassy areas after being trampled for a week at a boogie.

Somtimes there is not that much difference in pavement, which is thought to be a bad place to land, and other places.


Next question:

Do you land in the melted snow in the winter and get your canopy so wet that you must dry it out with the fan, or do you land on the dry pavement and get perhaps only a small section wet?

Why?

[airtwardo 6]

Next question:

Do you land in the melted snow in the winter and get your canopy so wet that you must dry it out with the fan, or do you land on the dry pavement and get perhaps only a small section wet?

Why?

***
What's SNOW?!


I do however often land on pavement at demos,
in some areas because it's the only safe LZ available,
in others...like last week in California...
because landing in the grass with smoke or pyro that's still hot might ruin EVERYONE'S day
~having to put out the fire.

Granted I'm an old fart...
but why jump a parachute you CAN'T land
standing up EVERYWHERE?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[KCJumper 0]

The beer line at my place is more for safety than beer. Its a dip in the grass right before you get to the hangers. This is the area that we let spectators hang out in. So i guess you could call ours a safety issue.

Patrick

[itllclear 1]

Granted I'm an old fart...
but why jump a parachute you CAN'T land
standing up EVERYWHERE?

[riggerrob 558]

Most "beer lines" are drawn to prevent injuries.

For example, the "beer line" at Pitt Meadows is a 6 foot tall fence beside a 6 foot deep drainage ditch.
There is a large, grassy area - almost as big as a soccer field - between the "beer line" and a row of hangars.
Most days you will survive landing on the wrong side of the "beer line," but when winds blow from the South, nasty rotors come off the hangars.

[pccoder 0]

I completely agree with you. I read some posts where people mentioned that it teaches students to more or less sharpen their skills so that when they do need to land in a tight spot they'll be able to do that. I can't say I agree with that completely. When you are new, there is enough to worry about other than imaginary lines, superstition and the like.

I too have seen very experienced skydivers with 1000's of jumps pretty much eat shit at the end of long swoops over grass to avoid the pavement that's coming up in front of them.

The concept of a beer line representing the "desired" landing area has its purpose. The concept of it being a problem if you happen to land outside of it needs to be looked at a little better on a case by case basis.

PcCoder.net