JohnRich 4 #26 June 13, 2010 QuoteIf a pilot showed up in a P-51, would the other pilots snicker and question why he continues to fly that old piece of shit? And thousands of AN-2's are still in flying service all over the world... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rockola 0 #27 June 14, 2010 Quote Comparing a Wonderhog to a P51 is silly, of course. A Wonderhog is more like a Brewster Buffalo. Most confirmed kills flying a P-51: 24 (George Preddy, USAAF) Most confirmed kills flying a Brewster Buffalo: 39 (Hans Wind, Finnish Air Force) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #28 June 14, 2010 >Even if we WERE on the same dive, how can this rig possibly cause >harm to anyone else who happened to be nearby? A premature opening can put the entire plane at risk. Many older rigs are more vulnerable to premature openings. Treated carefully, of course, they can be jumped safely, but many jumpers treat old gear like new gear (both the users and the other people in the airplane.) If someone at Perris showed up with an ancient Wonderhog (or even an old pullout Racer without riser covers, or an old Vector with 20 year old velcro holding the bridle to the belly band) I'd ask them about it. The answer might well be that they know what they're doing, and the velcro is actually fine. But not asking about stuff like that can get you killed. >If a pilot showed up in a P-51, would the other pilots snicker and >question why he continues to fly that old piece of shit? If he planned to fly in formation with you, then yes - someone might ask him how well his aircraft was maintained, whether the radios work, whether his nav lights and beacon work (if they are planning to fly after sunset) etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #29 June 14, 2010 "OMG, my riser cover opened in freefall!" Jumpers today, oh boy . . . NickD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,635 #30 June 15, 2010 Quote Quote Comparing a Wonderhog to a P51 is silly, of course. A Wonderhog is more like a Brewster Buffalo. Most confirmed kills flying a P-51: 24 (George Preddy, USAAF) Most confirmed kills flying a Brewster Buffalo: 39 (Hans Wind, Finnish Air Force) You do, of course, have to take into account what the other guy is flying.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #31 June 15, 2010 They can have my blast handle when they pry it.... never mind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airman1270 0 #32 June 15, 2010 ...If someone at Perris showed up with an ancient Wonderhog (or even an old pullout Racer without riser covers, or an old Vector with 20 year old velcro holding the bridle to the belly band) ... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Interesting comment. I fielded one like it years ago from a rigger in Texas who sent a letter to PARACHUTIST regarding this subject. The premis is that if the rig is old, it probably is not well maintained. When I said I've jumped this rig for 20+ years without indident, it was with the understanding that it has been well cared for. Velcro has always been replaced as needed and the rig is stored in a climate-controlled room. My reaction at the time was: When did USPA begin issuing something called a Psychic Rigger rating which would enable someone 1000 miles away to evaluate gear he's never seen? Cheers, Jon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #33 June 15, 2010 >The premis is that if the rig is old, it probably is not well maintained. Well, the odds that it is not well maintained do indeed go up. The amount of care needed to maintain a 30 year old piece of equipment in airworthy condition is much, much higher than the amount of care needed to maintain a 2 year old piece of equipment. Not to say that it can't be done - I know people with 20 year old gear who care for it very well, and it's still in good shape. In addition, materials just plain wear out. You can care for a rig all you like, but with regular usage, major structural pieces start to go. Indeed, there is currently a lot of debate within PIA over how long nylon webbing lasts before degrading to the point it is no longer safe for continued use, even with meticulous maintenance. >When did USPA begin issuing something called a Psychic Rigger rating >which would enable someone 1000 miles away to evaluate gear he's >never seen? Psychic Manufacturers do this all the time; Airtec (for example) requires that you retire Cypreses after 12 years or so, and National retires their gear after 25 years even if they've never seen it. I would call that more understanding the lifetime of their gear than being psychic though. But in any case, for most skydiving gear, just being old does not mean it's unsafe. However, if I saw someone I didn't know with really old gear, or gear that looked like it was maintained poorly, I'd probably ask them about it. I'd rather risk annoying someone than see someone get hurt because of a visible problem no one bothered to mention to them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beatnik 2 #34 June 15, 2010 Quote The amount of care needed to maintain a 30 year old piece of equipment in airworthy condition is much, much higher than the amount of care needed to maintain a 2 year old piece of equipment. I disagree with this statement. Maintenance is maintenance. You can't say that because it is old it is going to need more than newer. I maintain my 40+ vintage rigs and the parts and pieces are much easier to maintain than newer gear because the designs are so simple. It more depends on how it was cared for originally. There is some gear that is only a few years old that I wouldn't jump because of the poor overall condition. Associating age to maintenance is not a direct correlation. QuoteIn addition, materials just plain wear out. You can care for a rig all you like, but with regular usage, major structural pieces start to go. This is like any rig and if you look at the number of jumps people used to put on rigs compared to what they do now, you will see that most gear now will have a higher number of jumps and people are doing it without major problems that I have seen. I haven't seen much vintage gear with 1000's of jumps on it to have components wear out. QuoteIndeed, there is currently a lot of debate within PIA over how long nylon webbing lasts before degrading to the point it is no longer safe for continued use, even with meticulous maintenance. I have had discussions with manufacturers about this topic and I realize that some of them want to put life spans on gear because of age. I have heard some of their views about it will help get rid of the ratty gear around but I think it is more of a business move. It is another bad correlation. I have a rig from the 1940's that is in great condition with no problems and I never hesitate if I want to jump it. I have canopies from the 50's and up that there is no problem with. Sure I have seen some ratty old gear but I have also seen ratty newer gearl. To me age shouldn't set off alarms. It should be the maintenance that should be looked at more. I am not saying that age doesn't have a factor in it but I think people put way too much emphasis on it when there are other factors that need more attention. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 36 #35 June 15, 2010 And age in itself means nothing. I recently have bought 2 brand new rigs off these forums that were 16-17 years old. One had 0 jumps and the other 7 and then sat in a closet for years. They're in immaculate condition. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #36 June 15, 2010 >You can't say that because it is old it is going to need more than newer. Velcro needs more maintenance than tuck tabs. Natural fiber needs more maintenance than tuck tabs. Velcro based bridles need more maintenance than bridles that do not use velcro. Bungee collapsibles require more maintenance than kill line collapsibles. Stiffeners crack, rivets need resetting, and safety stows need to be replaced with time. Elastic holders and Spandex parts need to be replaced with time, even if you're not using the rig. >This is like any rig Absolutely. In 30 years, that brand new Micron is also going to need more attention than it needs now. It will need less than a 1980-vintage rig will need today because of changes in design (removal of Velcro etc) but it will still need more maintenance than a rig made in 2040. > It should be the maintenance that should be looked at more. I am not >saying that age doesn't have a factor in it . .. Agreed. It is both age and maintenance that is the issue - and of the two, maintenance is a lot more important. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #37 June 15, 2010 QuoteI have had discussions with manufacturers about this topic and I realize that some of them want to put life spans on gear because of age. I have heard some of their views about it will help get rid of the ratty gear around but I think it is more of a business move. It is another bad correlation. I have a rig from the 1940's that is in great condition with no problems and I never hesitate if I want to jump it. I have canopies from the 50's and up that there is no problem with. Sure I have seen some ratty old gear but I have also seen ratty newer gearl. To me age shouldn't set off alarms. It should be the maintenance that should be looked at more. I am not saying that age doesn't have a factor in it but I think people put way too much emphasis on it when there are other factors that need more attention. I have some really old gear that is in very good shape. I have also seem some new gear just a couple years old that is in horrible condition because its been jumped at desert or dry dusty dirty DZ's and all that sun, dirt and sand have taken a far greater toll than gear that was jumped at DZ's where there was a huge amount of grass landing area... not so much sun for most of the year or a very short jumping season like some of the Upper Midwest DZ's. The gear around here in the Pacific Northwest area also tends to stay in very good shape... since UV degradation is exceedingly low as well as some sweet grass landing areas at most of the DZ's Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beatnik 2 #38 June 16, 2010 QuoteVelcro needs more maintenance than tuck tabs. Natural fiber needs more maintenance than tuck tabs. Velcro based bridles need more maintenance than bridles that do not use velcro. Bungee collapsibles require more maintenance than kill line collapsibles. Stiffeners crack, rivets need resetting, and safety stows need to be replaced with time. Elastic holders and Spandex parts need to be replaced with time, even if you're not using the rig. It seems like the argument has more to do with worn velcro. I have no argument that velcro needs to be replaced on a regular basis but I don't agree with they require more maintenance than tuck tabs. Maybe on a regular basis but once the tuck tabs or stiffners break, I am spending more maintenance on them than I ever do on velcro. I have a sidewinder with a a few cracked stiffners and the amount of work I have to do on that is a lot more than the time I would put in to replace velcro on an Excalibur when is pretty much the same rig in many aspects. I still stand by what I said earlier. On a regular basis but on a overall I think they are about the same. I have done way too much maintenance on older gear to say it requires more. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beatnik 2 #39 June 16, 2010 QuoteI have some really old gear that is in very good shape. Keep the history alive. I should get more energetic and take some photos of my gear on the ground. I have several sport containers from the 70's that were brand new old stock, same with a few canopies. I even have a brand new Delta II. I mean brand new, it has zero jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NovaTTT 1 #40 June 16, 2010 Quote I even have a brand new Delta II. I mean brand new, it has zero jumps. That's just not right. Somebody should do something about that. "Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #41 June 16, 2010 and hence the shoulder "repair"... smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #42 June 16, 2010 Quote and hence the shoulder "repair"... Nope, gonna blame baseball and a fall in my own backyard for that one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jumpdude 0 #43 June 17, 2010 And to think I got slammed and laughed at in the threads here over my '92 Northern Lite II, '95 Falcon 300 and Swift Plus.I'm glad to jump my old Jalopy! Refuse to Lose!!! Failure is NOT an option! 1800skyrideripoff.com Nashvilleskydiving.org Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #44 June 17, 2010 Quote And to think I got slammed and laughed at in the threads here over my '92 Northern Lite II, '95 Falcon 300 and Swift Plus.I'm glad to jump my old Jalopy! I want to see that classic, please post a pic. I had a slightly older NLIIPeople are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
