EVERYONE should barrel roll.

[JohnDeere 0]

What i wrote is very clear! And you are wrong....quit reading into what i wrote

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[billvon 2,406]

>You may want to re-read what i typed.

I did. He said:
"Turning 180 degrees at the end of a tracking dive should NEVER be done."

You said:
"So on a 12-20 way track group you want all them to track forward?"

To put my previous answer another way, he did not suggest that everyone track forward. No one did. You made an unwarranted assumption there. What he _did_ say was that you should not turn 180 degrees during a tracking dive to break off. That is correct; you should not.

[danielcroft 2]

So, I have a question then: if I have a larger tracking group, say 15 people and there's some disparity in the tracking skills resulting in some people being high and behind the rabbit and main group of trackers, what is the best method for those people to maintain separation on break off? What I'm picturing is 3 or 4 people behind and above the rabbit, how do they work out which angle to track off on?

Second question would be, what is the safest course of action on break off for someone who's below the main group?

[catfishhunter 1]

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You'll never see this on large organized jumps. The people who are invited on such jumps know better. I have, however, seen people attempt to do this on moderate sized jumps thinking that they are clearing their air. What I observed of those people however was:

They had by far the shortest and steepest track of anyone in the group.

They had poor heading control in their track as a result of the roll

The roll happened in perhaps half a second. That's the entire roll. They'd be lucky if they had half that time to scan the sky above. If you can spot a solitary person in the sky in less than a quarter second while the entire world is whizzing through your field of view, you're clearly not human.

They had to spend tome getting stable again after the roll, while I was still far above them, still tracking and finding lots of empty space to deploy.

Pretty much everything that's already been said will happen when you try this. I have seen this happen every time I see someone try this. It's just a bad idea. I know you think you have a new and wonderful idea for break-off safety, but it's not new, nor is it better. It's been tried. It really doesn't work. It creates new problems and it doesn't really improve anything.

Where do you jump? I want to know so I don't ever go there. I have only been jumping for going on 8 years and have always been on my belly and I can't remember ever seeing this and it sounds like it is a common occurrence where you jump.

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[billvon 2,406]

>Where do you jump? I want to know so I don't ever go there.

It happened with some regularity on the bigger jumps at the WFFC, and used to happen (rarely) at Perris. Nowadays not so much.

[theonlyski 3]

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>So on a 12-20 way track group you want all them to track forward?

?? No; they just shouldn't track _backwards_. There are a great many directions you can choose other than backwards.

You may want to re-read what i typed. I never said "backwards" or 180 deg......i said track back an in the general direction you just came from, of you would fan out (like the front guys do) but more to the outside. Yes i could have spelled it out better for those that like to ASSume but i didnt think it was needed.....

Hmm, so you assumed that you didnt need to spell it out for people that assumed you meant something else?

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[JohnMitchell 14]

In skydiving, low man has right-of-way, and the onus on the person above to de-conflict and watch for the wave off. How can you do that when you're barrel rolling? What if you're busy dodging a lower, deploying jumper? I can understand your desire to look up, but just turning the head both ways while tracking and waving off seems to do pretty well. My main focus is below me, because if anything is going to kill me, that's the most likely place it will come from.

[ridestrong 1]

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In skydiving, low man has right-of-way, and the onus on the person above to de-conflict and watch for the wave off. How can you do that when you're barrel rolling? What if you're busy dodging a lower, deploying jumper? I can understand your desire to look up, but just turning the head both ways while tracking and waving off seems to do pretty well. My main focus is below me, because if anything is going to kill me, that's the most likely place it will come from.

I plan on phasing out the barrel roll and looking over my shoulders on more break-offs.

I knew there were quite a few people here that are anti-barrel roll and obviously some that feel that the barrel roll should NEVER be performed before pulling. I just wanted to find out why they feel that way and their reasons for not doing it. Some of the reasoning and feedback given I haven't heard before and plan to utilize.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[JohnMitchell 14]

Wow, thanks for listening.

Over the years my viewpoint on safety issues have changed. I tell myself it takes a smart person to change, an idiot to be stubborn.

[strop45 0]

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What i wrote is very clear! And you are wrong....quit reading into what i wrote

I didn't read anything into what you wrote, I simply quoted you.

In any event, understanding the written word requires reading, so not sure what you are trying to say?

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[brettski74 0]

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Where do you jump?

Did you look at my profile? It's no secret who I am or where my home dropzone is. Judge much?

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Where do you jump? I want to know so I don't ever go there. I have only been jumping for going on 8 years and have always been on my belly and I can't remember ever seeing this and it sounds like it is a common occurrence where you jump.

No, it is not common, nor was I talking about any one dropzone. I've seen it once or twice at home, and a few more times at other dropzones I've been visiting at the time. As I said, several times. This is over the course of hundreds of jumps that were 10-way or larger. It's generally always someone with perhaps 200-300 jumps who had never been told this was a bad idea. On more recent examples, I had a word to the person involved and they adjusted their break-off behaviour accordingly.

I guess Ogden must be one of those magical places where everyone is just born with the skills and knowledge of the typical experienced skydiver and nobody needs to be taught these things. I'm sure we're all jealous of your good fortune to live and jump in such a place.

[catfishhunter 1]

Yeah ok my poking fun didn't come across perfect and I deserved your reply

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[pms07 3]

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In skydiving, low man has right-of-way, and the onus on the person above to de-conflict and watch for the wave off. How can you do that when you're barrel rolling? What if you're busy dodging a lower, deploying jumper? I can understand your desire to look up, but just turning the head both ways while tracking and waving off seems to do pretty well. My main focus is below me, because if anything is going to kill me, that's the most likely place it will come from.

I plan on phasing out the barrel roll and looking over my shoulders on more break-offs.

I knew there were quite a few people here that are anti-barrel roll and obviously some that feel that the barrel roll should NEVER be performed before pulling. I just wanted to find out why they feel that way and their reasons for not doing it. Some of the reasoning and feedback given I haven't heard before and plan to utilize.

I'm not real clear on what ""phasing out" the barrel roll means. It almost sounds like you are reluctant to give it up even though you may have learned something here. Still, learning may have taken place...

Okay, lets put this one to bed I guess. I'm sure the issue will be revisited though as it seems to be a recurring question in spite of the fact that barrel rolling to clear the airspace above you is, for the most part, a foolish, ineffective and potentially dangerous plan.

[lippy 773]

Stumbled across this on the Interwebs and immediately thought of this thread: http://img.moonbuggy.org/barrel-roll/

I got nuthin

[airtwardo 6]

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In skydiving, low man has right-of-way, and the onus on the person above to de-conflict and watch for the wave off. How can you do that when you're barrel rolling? What if you're busy dodging a lower, deploying jumper? I can understand your desire to look up, but just turning the head both ways while tracking and waving off seems to do pretty well. My main focus is below me, because if anything is going to kill me, that's the most likely place it will come from.

I plan on phasing out the barrel roll and looking over my shoulders on more break-offs.

I knew there were quite a few people here that are anti-barrel roll and obviously some that feel that the barrel roll should NEVER be performed before pulling. I just wanted to find out why they feel that way and their reasons for not doing it. Some of the reasoning and feedback given I haven't heard before and plan to utilize.

I'm not real clear on what ""phasing out" the barrel roll means. It almost sounds like you are reluctant to give it up even though you may have learned something here. Still, learning may have taken place...

Okay, lets put this one to bed I guess. I'm sure the issue will be revisited though as it seems to be a recurring question in spite of the fact that barrel rolling to clear the airspace above you is, for the most part, a foolish, ineffective and potentially dangerous plan.

Reminds me of the guy wanting to put review mirrors on his helmet and hands...

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[kimemerson 7]

I'm not going to read 90 posts, so this may have been mentioned. If so, sorry.

It occurs to me that proper tracking by everyone sort of precludes the need for a barrel roll as you describe the need. And flying on level, not going low. I know these things take some learning, but that's where it eventually has to lead.
Also, your wave off, while not completely addressing your concern, is meant to signal especially those above you that you are about to pull. The question then becomes, what are you doing below anyone? If you are so low on a formation that getting back in isn't going to happen, you need to go away. Track perpendicular to the line of flight and pull when it's time.
Flat tracking helps too. Some people lose altitude when transitioning to the track, others use the loss of altitude to gain speed before flattening out, while others just go for the flat track immediately, and track far.

Essentially what I see your question being about is how to remedy an incorrect or improper situation in which good flying skills have not yet been obtained. So that when you do fly well, this becomes moot.

[ridestrong 1]

On my last jump of the day this past Sunday I was tracking away and noticed someone flying their canopy up jump run directly below me and turning in the same direction as my track (which was perpendicular to jump run). I pulled immediately at about 3,500 and was under at 2,700. Other jumper said they may have flown up jump run at about 2,500 putting them right below me. Definitely hit home with this discussion.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[fasted3 0]

Excuse me; it sounds like you opened over the top of somebody, and if so, I would have tracked and took it down another 1000 feet, probably getting great horizontal seperation. Counting on vertical seperation is wrong. Please revisit vertical vs horizontal seperation.

But what do I know?

[brettski74 0]

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On my last jump of the day this past Sunday I was tracking away and noticed someone flying their canopy up jump run directly below me and turning in the same direction as my track (which was perpendicular to jump run). I pulled immediately at about 3,500 and was under at 2,700. Other jumper said they may have flown up jump run at about 2,500 putting them right below me. Definitely hit home with this discussion.

Under most conditions, your exit separation should be sufficient that people should not be able to fly their canopy underneath you before you deploy. My guess is that this was probably caused by one of the following:

insufficient exit separation. How long did you leave between groups at exit?

one or the other group flying up or down jump run in freefall. Most likely causes are newbie sitfliers backsliding all over the sky or people tracking more than necessary from their group. Keep in mind that all you need is adequate separation. You don't need to track a mile to get separation from a 4-way.

Ridiculously high upper winds. For example, if you had 65 knot winds at 12000' but only 10 knots at 3000', your exit delay would be long enough that a canopy would have sufficient time to fly underneath you before you open. That said, this is a fairly unlikely scenario that I don't think you would see very often in most places.

If something like this happens again, it would be worthwhile talking with the other jumper to figure out why this happened so you can avoid it better in the future. It sounds like you did, but I think this was most likely caused by something in either your or his/her freefall or exit, not from his/her canopy flight.

[ridestrong 1]

Other jumper was one of the first out of the Otter and we were close to last out. They are a new jumper <50 jumps and were flying up jump run. They had probably already been under canopy for 30-40 seconds maybe longer.

ETA: I did discuss it with the other jumper.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[mdrejhon 8]

For a bigway outer... The moment someone becomes a good tracker, you're LOOKING DOWNWARDS to scan your air and then you see the ENTIRE base at the bottom of your vision still in the process of breaking off -- below your altitude, because a big way outer who's become a fairly reasonably good tracker, manages to fall significantly slower than the base before it started breaking off.

This has happened to me on a few 100-way jumps, beginning last September. Noticed this by accident. It's kinda a weird sensation to accidentally happen to see 70-80 people below your altitude just by looking down and briefly glancing your eyeballs towards your wrist altitimeter for a quick glance -- and then simultaneously happening to see so many people below your altitude.

Oh, just like everyone else, I've of course botched my track a few breakoffs (such as a random second delay by missed kick signal), and been in the bottom 50th percentile, or I mis-arched for a brief moment. But that seems to happen less and less...

Oh, and I accidentally noticed that bending your head downwards seemed to even help my track (better track arch). Just don't forget to scan and look upwards from time to time too.

Tracking teams REALLY do help.

[timmyfitz 0]

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On my last jump of the day this past Sunday I was tracking away and noticed someone flying their canopy up jump run directly below me and turning in the same direction as my track (which was perpendicular to jump run). I pulled immediately at about 3,500 and was under at 2,700. Other jumper said they may have flown up jump run at about 2,500 putting them right below me. Definitely hit home with this discussion.

Under most conditions, your exit separation should be sufficient that people should not be able to fly their canopy underneath you before you deploy. My guess is that this was probably caused by one of the following:

insufficient exit separation. How long did you leave between groups at exit?

one or the other group flying up or down jump run in freefall. Most likely causes are newbie sitfliers backsliding all over the sky or people tracking more than necessary from their group. Keep in mind that all you need is adequate separation. You don't need to track a mile to get separation from a 4-way.

Ridiculously high upper winds. For example, if you had 65 knot winds at 12000' but only 10 knots at 3000', your exit delay would be long enough that a canopy would have sufficient time to fly underneath you before you open. That said, this is a fairly unlikely scenario that I don't think you would see very often in most places.

If something like this happens again, it would be worthwhile talking with the other jumper to figure out why this happened so you can avoid it better in the future. It sounds like you did, but I think this was most likely caused by something in either your or his/her freefall or exit, not from his/her canopy flight.

Or it could have been due to what he said in his post:

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Other jumper said they may have flown up jump run at about 2,500 putting them right below me.

[skydiverkeith 1]

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On my last jump of the day this past Sunday I was tracking away and noticed someone flying their canopy up jump run directly below me and turning in the same direction as my track (which was perpendicular to jump run). I pulled immediately at about 3,500 and was under at 2,700. Other jumper said they may have flown up jump run at about 2,500 putting them right below me. Definitely hit home with this discussion.

A word of advice from experience...
If this ever happens again, DON'T PULL.

Once you pitch that pilot chute you loose control over your filght path during opening and if you ARE directly above the other jumper, can snivel right into his canopy, as happened to me.

Fly your body and make sure you're clear, THEN PULL.

Blue skies,
Keith Medlock

[rehmwa 2]

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The moment someone becomes a good tracker, you're LOOKING DOWNWARDS to scan your air and then you see the ENTIRE base at the bottom of your vision still in the process of breaking off -- below your altitude,

any good tracker - not just a "bigway outer"
I really like this view though, if I'm tracking good and someone else started after me, I'll be above them.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Butters 0]

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On my last jump of the day this past Sunday I was tracking away and noticed someone flying their canopy up jump run directly below me and turning in the same direction as my track (which was perpendicular to jump run). I pulled immediately at about 3,500 and was under at 2,700. Other jumper said they may have flown up jump run at about 2,500 putting them right below me. Definitely hit home with this discussion.

Still planning on doing barrel rolls? I'll say it again ... you're supposed to be looking for (and avoiding) what is below you, not what is above you ... let the person above you look for (and avoid) you.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch