Velocity vs Ferrari

[discovery4 0]

A common metaphor I see used is, "Would you have wanted to be driving a Ferrari when you were 16? Knowing, now, everything you didn't know then."

While I can see some logic behind this point it raises a question.

I have been driving for 10 years. My first car was a VW Golf and my current car is a 2011 VW Jetta Wagon TDI. Both of these cars would fall in the light wingloading and very forgiving canopy category. However, with very little experience with high performance cars I would feel very comfortable walking out my door, getting into a Ferrari, and taking off down the road.

For an example,I have a friend who races a highly modified Corvette. He has let me take it out on a track and I did so with no training other than in my VW's. While there is a respect for what the car is capable of it isn't going to do anything that I'm not aware of. It accelerates faster, turns sharper, rides rougher, and overall everything it does, it does to a more extreme degree than my VW but, it isn't going to do anything extraordinary.

It's very possible that this is just a bad metaphor that doesn't apply. There are certainly many of those floating around but, I wanted to see what the consensus was.

Disclaimer: I'm not trying to troll and I don't want this to end up as another typical canopy downsizing thread. I would like to keep it on the subject of the specific metaphor and how it does or does not apply.

[theonlyski 3]

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A common metaphor I see used is, "Would you have wanted to be driving a Ferrari when you were 16? Knowing, now, everything you didn't know then."

While I can see some logic behind this point it raises a question.

I have been driving for 10 years. My first car was a VW Golf and my current car is a 2011 VW Jetta Wagon TDI. Both of these cars would fall in the light wingloading and very forgiving canopy category. However, with very little experience with high performance cars I would feel very comfortable walking out my door, getting into a Ferrari, and taking off down the road.

For an example,I have a friend who races a highly modified Corvette. He has let me take it out on a track and I did so with no training other than in my VW's. While there is a respect for what the car is capable of it isn't going to do anything that I'm not aware of. It accelerates faster, turns sharper, rides rougher, and overall everything it does, it does to a more extreme degree than my VW but, it isn't going to do anything extraordinary.

It's very possible that this is just a bad metaphor that doesn't apply. There are certainly many of those floating around but, I wanted to see what the consensus was.

Disclaimer: I'm not trying to troll and I don't want this to end up as another typical canopy downsizing thread. I would like to keep it on the subject of the specific metaphor and how it does or does not apply.

But the fact of the matter still remains, you can still drive a car slower... that velo doesnt have an accelerator that you can get comfortable with... deep brakes probably wont work quite as well either.

Bad analogy, IMO.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[jumpwally 0]

you can take that car into the wall at high speed and survive to a degree.....you can take a canopy at a tenth of that speed,,hook it in and have teeth in your lungs in an instant,,gasping your last breath.....its way different..

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[JohnnyMarko 1]

Go for it brah....cars are the exact same thing as canopies...wait, what was the point of this thread?

[Hvance 0]

theonlyski pointed out the relevant difference in the analogue. That Ferrari has the capacity to be quick/corner/etc, but you can still creep around the track if you aren't comfortable.

With a canopy, there's no comparable way to make inputs.

I wish Google Maps had an "Avoid Ghetto" routing option.

[davelepka 4]

You missed a key point. You have been driving for ten years. You may not have a lot of high performance driving experience, but you have a lot of driving experience. The high performance part you can 'figure out' if you already have the driving experience.

Likewise, the 'experience' part you can figure out if you're not talking high performance. This is why a teenager can drive a VW Gulf with little to no experience, it's not high performance.

The lesson is that you can't figure out both at the same time.

If you gave me two jumpers, one with ten years experience and 1000 jumps, and one with one year of experience and 100 jumps who both flew the same canopy at the same WL, and asked me which one would do beter under a Velocity, I would pick the guy with 10 years in the sport. He's got the experience, just not the high performance part.

For the record, I don't reccomend anyone jump down to a high performance canopy, regardless of their jump numbers or time in sport. You downsize in a steady and methodical way, whoever you are. My example was just for the purposes of comparison.

[turtlespeed 212]

Does that mean you have mad skilz?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[jurgencamps 0]

One big difference. With the ferrari you can drive slowly. The canopy only "drives" at full speed.
Flying the whole time in full brakes is not the same thing as driving slowly, but please, go and try it and report back the difference.

Jurgen

[mutumbo 0]

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A common metaphor I see used is, "Would you have wanted to be driving a Ferrari when you were 16? Knowing, now, everything you didn't know then."

in a word. . . yes,

in 2 words, HELL yes.

Thanatos340(on landing rounds)--
Landing procedure: Hand all the way up, Feet and Knees Together and PLF soon as you get bitch slapped by a planet.

[Ron 7]

Your car analogy does not work. You have 10 years of driving exp. You don't have to think when a kid jumps in front of you while driving down the street... You already know what to do and *how* to do it. In those 10 years you have accumulated thousands of hours of driving time. (Lets say you do 15000 miles a year and EVERY mile was at 60.... That would be 2,500 hours of exp).

If I found a guy that had been jumping sabers for 10 years I'd bet he could handle a single jump on a Velo as well. That would be comparable to your one day in the track Vette.

Hell, I have almost 5k jumps over 18 years and that is about 330 hours of canopy flight.... That is not even close to your exp driving your VW's.

It would be safe to say you are more experienced at driving than I am flying a canopy.

The metaphor is not perfect... It is not strict enough. The Vette has brakes that let you stop it at any time. The velo does not. For them to be the same the Vette would have to only have a speed range close to it's maximum with no ability to stop till you got to the finish line.

So while the metaphor is not 100% accurate, it actually is not a dangerous enough example.... Take the Ferrari and take the brakes off of it unless it is at a finish line and make it go about 40-80% of full throttle in top gear and it starts to get a little closer to a velo.

But the "Iwanna be a jet fighter" feeling of the metaphor applies quite well. 16 year olds want the Ferrari but they don't care they can't really handle it and new jumpers want the velo and don't realize they can't handle it.

So your analogy is clearly flawed.... We took an exp driver and put him in a higher exp car. That would be like the guy with 1000 jumps on the Sabre getting a Velo.

If you have a better metaphor.... Suggest it. Right now the Ferrari one is darn close and it uses an object and a situation that most people understand.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jdathome 0]

It would be more accurate to compare canopies to airplanes. When you are a student, you learn to fly a high wing, docile, forgiving aircraft, like a Cessna 152…ect. Say you get your hours and your instructor clears you to solo. Well now you have a little experience and confidence in your skillz and talking to an experienced pilot, he tells you how much fun it is flying an aerobatic airplane. You would be a fool to think you could apply your Cessna experience to what it would take to fly a high performance airplane! The stall speed would be much too fast, the controls would be much too sensitive and you will surely kill yourself trying.

When dealing with things that fly, you need to think of “dynamic stability” and “aerodynamics”. When you change wings, you change everything. The car analogy doesn’t work at all.

As always, if you do try something stupid…GET VIDEO!

Blues…

Marriage is like a deck of cards. You start with two harts and a diamond only to discover you wish you had a club and a spade!

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi jd,

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You would be a fool to think you could apply your Cessna experience to what it would take to fly a high performance airplane!

From what I have read, this is what killed JFK Jr.

JerryBaumchen

[Ron 7]

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You would be a fool to think you could apply your Cessna experience to what it would take to fly a high performance airplane!

From what I have read, this is what killed JFK Jr.

JerryBaumchen

JB.... There is a reason why Moonies and (particularly V tailed) Bonanza's are know as "Dr. Killers"

The guys get rated and have the money to buy them, but not yet the experience to fly them.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Airplanes and car and anything motorized also have this really neat ability to apply more power or stop and reset, then try again if it's not working out quite right. Canopies...not so much.


Based on the High performance car methodology, the key is that you would never drive the car near it's limits around the track. Sure you "steered" it, but you didn't "drive" it. With a canopy, there is no "slow mode", it's really fast and faster.

I think canopy progression can be closely related to riding a bicycle

-You started on training wheels (Student canopy)

-You then got to go to a single speed or something similar, and occasionally have a nasty wipeout (Solo status with a forgiving canopy, 190 Sabre etc...)

-Then you get a bike with more gears, shocks etc and start doing tricks and/or mountain biking. (First real performing canopy, Sabre2, Pilot in a smaller size)

-Then you buy your first dirt bike (This would be the katana's/ Crossifres etc)

-You trade the dirt bike for a Hayabusa (Velo, JVX etc)

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[DanG 1]

The canopy/car anology is apt if you assume that as soon as you turn the car on, your buddy jams the gas pedal to the floor with a brick, breaks off the key, and jumps out.

I doubt you'd do so well at the track under those circumstances.

(Preemptive anti-smart-ass disclaimer: And no, the clutch won't disengage either)

- Dan G

[champu 1]

So it's like driving a Toyota?

[DanG 1]

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So it's like driving a Toyota?

Ba-dump.

- Dan G

[robinheid 0]

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Hi jd,

Quote

You would be a fool to think you could apply your Cessna experience to what it would take to fly a high performance airplane!

From what I have read, this is what killed JFK Jr.

JerryBaumchen

that and the facts that:

a) his wife was late to the airport, so it was near dusk when they took off instead of broad daylight as JFK Jr. had planned;

b) his wife and sister DEMANDED that he fly out to Martha's Vineyard anyway that night so the sister could go to a party;

b) despite the fact that even high-time VFR pilots shied away from flying away from the coast in the hazy-at-dusk, sky-horizon-and-ocean-blend-together conditions that evening; and

c) he had just gotten a cast off his left foot (broken ankle) so his kinesthetic awareness on that foot was reduced.

As usual, it wasn't just one thing but a series of events, starting with getting a late start, and all of which were magnified by a high-performance airplane... which is what a couple of other posters have said about low-timers flying high-performance canopies: you can get away with it when everything goes right, but the problem is, everything doesn't always go right.




P.S. JFK Jr. and his wife also had a big fight right before they took off. She wanted him to shower before they left; he said, "I'll just wash up on shore."

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[AggieDave 6]

If we're still trying to use car/road examples, I would akin flying a loaded up Velo like riding on a sport bike, with a throttle stuck wide open and no brakes...in traffic on the highway.

Otherwise I would say the Velo flies like a VX, but so much better in every measurable way.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[stayhigh 2]

No one with right mind will suggest 1000+ cc ducati for my first bike.
Same thing with canopy, no one will suggest going sub 100 velo for first canopy.
Everyone crashes once
And no velo comes with bumper that will protect your leg

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[sundevil777 93]

This thread is a battle of the crappy analogies!

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[discovery4 0]

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Does that mean you have mad skilz?

No, it does not mean that I have mad skillz. I never said anything about wanting to fly a Velocity or even a Sabre2. I'm very happy on my Spectre. It is just an analogy I have seen used several times and while I know I'm capable of driving a high performance car, I never said I was capable of flying a high performance canopy.

That is why I asked specifically about the analogy and not, "I can drive a high performance car so, I can fly a high performance canopy, right?"

I was fairly certain the analogy didn't apply but, because I have no experience with high performance canopy's I didn't know why it wasn't an accurate analogy. Hence, why I asked.

[Beatnik 2]

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I was fairly certain the analogy didn't apply but, because I have no experience with high performance canopy's I didn't know why it wasn't an accurate analogy. Hence, why I asked.

In psychology research, we call this questionable analogies. Comparing situations that are quite different in an attempt to understand. It pretty much never gives you the answer you want.

[Pulse 0]

You're right. It's a piss poor metaphor and beware...the sport is full of them. And beware of the person who uses such metaphors without further explanation. I understand this as someone who was fed the metaphor at some point and never pursued any further understanding but that doesn't stop them from spewing it out to others.

People like short answers that don't require much from them. I applaud you from thinking twice about this one, that alone says you're on a good track.

"Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled."

[pirana 0]

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If we're still trying to use car/road examples, I would akin flying a loaded up Velo like riding on a sport bike, with a throttle stuck wide open and no brakes...in traffic on the highway.

What he said.

Also, although the analogy is vague, as is your story on the Corvette you drove - a Corvette is not a Ferrari. Only a very very small and highly trained proportion of the population would be able to push a modern Ferrari to anywhere near it's limits without losing control in the 1st corner, and peeing themselves.

Whereas the average Cub Scout with his Soap Box Derby badge could be trained to drive a Corvette.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley