Deaths since I quit.

[oldwomanc6 38]

And why do you post here?

Sometimes the testosterone gets a little thick.

I would think that by the time you have as many jumps as you do, you would understand that someone with 4x as many jumps might know a thing or two. Not like someone with a hundred or two. That you would be realizing that when they see a problem in the sport, they would speak up.


Heck, anyone with eyes, no matter how many jumps they have, or how long since their last jump can see we are killing ourselves under perfectly good canopies.

lisa

lisa
WSCR 594
FB 1023
CBDB 9

[mjosparky 3]

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I don't wingsuit because I'm not old and I don't suck at skydiving.

It is my guess that you suck at just about anything you have ever tried. But then someone has to fill the left side of the curve. If you insist on posting try and have something to contribute.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[billvon 2,400]

Both of you (Mike and Packer) cut it out. Your one warning.

[grimmie 173]

Sparky has forgotten more about skydiving than you will ever know, he could kick your ass up and down the runway, with energy left to buy a round of beer at the bar and ride off into the sunset with a hottie on the back of his Harley. You are wrong about the t shirts. He wears his old FD shirts. Chics dig firemen more than skydivers.

[rmarshall234 13]

And he continues to post here because he is compassionate about safety and because he CARES about others. (He has proven that through a lifetime of service to the skydiving community and to the community at large.) Also, and I don't know this but I suspect it is true; he quit skydiving -in part- because of the arrogance and irreverance of the common upcoming jumper that did not exist in years past.

[mjosparky 3]

Thanks guys.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Olmed 0]

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Thanks guys.

Sparky

I really never thought your intention was to prevent people from skydiving...

[virgin-burner 1]

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Thanks guys.

Sparky

I really never thought your intention was to prevent people from skydiving...

yea, dont die under a good canopy; it obviously upsets people!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[mjosparky 3]

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Thanks guys.

Sparky

I really never thought your intention was to prevent people from skydiving...

The use of common sense would be a great start. Realizing that it takes time and practice to become proficient at one level before moving on to the next. Take every opportunity to learn from things you see, things you hear and never be shy about asking questions. Never forget that none of us are nearly as good as we think we are.
I survived for 30 years without any major injuries and some of that time was during the “formative” years of jumping. I have friends that have been at for almost 5 decades. And on the other hand I’ve had friends that didn’t last 5 years. It’s your choice.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[jshiloh 0]

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But the full story is that skydiving has been getting safer since the 1960s.

Hate to say it, but this is an ill-informed statement. Maybe skydiving has gotten safer, maybe it hasn't. Truth is, no one really knows because no one has ever taken a look at the "full story" (nor is it possible to do so).

The USPA Keeps a record of the number of fatalities they are informed about. However, there is no actual, enforceable requirement that fatalities be reported to them. Group members may be under some kind of obligation to do so, but it's not like they'll suffer any consequences if they don't (intentionally or not). And non-group members have absolutely no obligation. Since the USPA takes no active measures to seek out the information, simply passively relying on others to tell them about fatalities, the total numbers will always be questionable.

And that's just the fatalities. There is even less obligation to report serious injuries. And even those that are reported, the USPA doesn't compile overall statistics on. The FAA takes an even more lax attitude on such statistics, choosing instead to rely on the numbers provided by the industry's "self-regulating organization" (USPA).

Which brings us to yet another problem. Keep in mind that the USPA is largely a marketting & lobbying organization. It is in their best interests to conclude that skydiving is getting safer. Numbers that reveal increasing safety problems hurt both the marketting of the sport as well as lobbying efforts for less government involvement. The USPA is essentially the sole source of long-term statistics. And statistics can easily be skewed to prove a desired conclusion.

Just by way of example...we've all heard the statement that skydiving is "statistically" safer than driving a car. This is based on comparing the number of skydiving fatalities (~20) to the number of car driver deaths(~15,000) in a year. But if you break it down to the number of deaths per mile driven/jumped, you're "statistically" about 1,000 times more likely to die skydiving than driving.

My point is, just about everyone who says it's proven that skydiving safety has improved over the last 30 years is basing that conclusion on questionably complete numbers compiled by a biased source. I don't claim it's gotten more dangerous. Just pointing out that in reality, no one truly knows whether or not the sport has gotten more dangerous, safer, or is about the same.

[dks13827 2]

We need to be teaching the hazards of target fixation......... and not keeping head on a swivel at all times. I mean teach these as a priority !

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

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Thanks guys.

Sparky

I really never thought your intention was to prevent people from skydiving...

The use of common sense would be a great start. Realizing that it takes time and practice to become proficient at one level before moving on to the next. Take every opportunity to learn from things you see, things you hear and never be shy about asking questions. Never forget that none of us are nearly as good as we think we are.
I survived for 30 years without any major injuries and some of that time was during the “formative” years of jumping. I have friends that have been at for almost 5 decades. And on the other hand I’ve had friends that didn’t last 5 years. It’s your choice.

Sparky

Bolding mine.

Unfortunately, common sense, just like common courtesy isn't as common as it should be.

Patience and maturity are also not as prevalant as they should be.

"Don't worry, I know what I'm doing and I'll be careful"...Thud.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[billvon 2,400]

>Maybe skydiving has gotten safer, maybe it hasn't. Truth is, no one really knows
>because no one has ever taken a look at the "full story" (nor is it possible to do so).

Well, if you go by the odds of getting killed in this sport, it's definitely getting safer.

If you go by reliability of gear, it's getting safer overall. A lot of people nowadays don't even remember issues like the acid mesh problem, the Nova collapses, the Racers without riser covers, the too-soft harness rings, the AAD's that had at best a +/-500 ft error band, the lack of pin protection, the spate of mini riser failures, the prematures due to bad velcro on ROL pilot chutes etc.

However, often this increased reliability has the side effect of making skydiving seem safer than it really is. If the worst that can happen to you on a skydive is an AAD deployment, then you are more likely to take a chance on a dive where you won't be able to pull, or might forget to pull. If you can cut away at 150 feet and survive, you're not going to be as careful about checking altitudes before cutting away. If you can get a camera that weighs ounces, you're not going to think anything of slapping one on your helmet and doing video at 50 jumps.

The problem is that SOME of that reliance is justified. Reserves really are safer and more reliable nowadays, and thus deciding to cut away from a perhaps-landable mal is a more justifiable decision than in the days of a round reserve that was, at best, going to land you in a random location very hard.

So you can't say "all these changes in attitude are bad." But of course some of them are, and nowadays skydivers are substituting lack of good judgment for lack of good gear.

>The USPA Keeps a record of the number of fatalities they are informed about.
>However, there is no actual, enforceable requirement that fatalities be reported to
>them.

No. However, USPA does read the papers (and even DZ.com) - and it is very, very rare that a fatality will occur that they do not notice. In the last 10 years I have not seen them miss any, and in the 10 before that I can't think of any that they missed.

>Just by way of example...we've all heard the statement that skydiving is
>"statistically" safer than driving a car.

Yes, we have. But USPA doesn't say that - in general it's DZ's who want to entice tandem students who say that.

>who says it's proven that skydiving safety has improved over the last 30 years is
>basing that conclusion on questionably complete numbers compiled by a biased
>source.

Perhaps. But:

1) they have always had any such bias, imagined or real. It's not like USPA only realized in the past ten years "hey, we want skydiving to be seen as safer!" So nothing has changed.

2) they're not missing fatalities.

[SStewart 13]

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I quit jumping in February 2006. Since then, in the US 130 skydivers have died. Of those who died 77 or 59% were under a good canopy. Worldwide the numbers are 331 dead with 148 or 44% under good canopies.
Disclaimer – My figures may be off by 1 or 2.

Sparky

Maybe you should start jumping again, the sport needs your expertise and mentorship. It is too easy to stand on the sidelines and yell at the players.
I know where you are coming from but I don't know where you are going to. The Genie is out of the bottle and we have to deal with it. What is your answer? I would really like to know.
When I give the safety day presentation I always say that people used to die because the parachute did not open. But, nowadays they die because it did.

Onward and Upward!

[piisfish 135]

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yea, dont die under a good canopy; it obviously upsets people!

and if you realize you are going to die under a good canopy, quickly cut a couple of lines. That's what hook-knives are for

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Ron 7]

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As an AAF student in about 9 days I wonder if I signed my death sentence when I booked the course?

Well, that depends on you and your attitude.

But.... Don't kid yourself for a second, you can easily die on any jump. Anyone that tries to tell you this is 'safe' is lying to either you or themselves to make themselves feel better.

People die every year, not to many of them thought they would die.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jshiloh 0]

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>The USPA Keeps a record of the number of fatalities they are informed about.
>However, there is no actual, enforceable requirement that fatalities be reported to
>them.

No. However, USPA does read the papers (and even DZ.com) - and it is very, very rare that a fatality will occur that they do not notice. In the last 10 years I have not seen them miss any, and in the 10 before that I can't think of any that they missed.

Look at the numbers by individual year the USPA publishes. Then look at the numbers by individual year (for the US only, of course) that DZ.com has in its records. You'll see several discrepancies--variances of as much as 15%. I want to make it clear that I'm not saying there's any kind of coverup on the number of deaths. My point is merely that the primary source of the "total number of skydiving fatalities" (the USPA) has questionably accurate numbers. If the raw data is questionable, then all conclusions drawn from that raw date is inherently questionable.

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>who says it's proven that skydiving safety has improved over the last 30 years is
>basing that conclusion on questionably complete numbers compiled by a biased
>source.

Perhaps. But:

1) they have always had any such bias, imagined or real. It's not like USPA only realized in the past ten years "hey, we want skydiving to be seen as safer!" So nothing has changed.

2) they're not missing fatalities.

1) True, the bias they have has been there all along. But that doesn't change the fact that it is in their best interests to conclude & demonstrate that skydiving is getting "safer." Bias can exist for decades or even centuries, and be used to show a slow improvement. A slow improvement is actually desireable, for many reasons.

2) See above about comparing USPA numbers to DZ.com numbers.

Again, I'm not saying there's any kind of shenanigans going on. What I'm saying is that whether or not the sport TRULY is getting safer is a question no one can truly answer, because such conclusion is based either on annecdotal conjecture or data which is questionable both in completeness & compilation.

[Olmed 0]

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As an AAF student in about 9 days I wonder if I signed my death sentence when I booked the course?

Well, that depends on you and your attitude.

But.... Don't kid yourself for a second, you can easily die on any jump. Anyone that tries to tell you this is 'safe' is lying to either you or themselves to make themselves feel better.

People die every year, not to many of them thought they would die.

Agree

And personally I do not buy the "its safer than driving a car" kind of comment.

But I also think you have to believe in your equipment and training to keep the chances for accidents on a minimum.

The one time you do NOT follow your good routine and take to lightly on safety/procedure is probable when everything can happen.

I think the clever ones wont push beyond their abilities and expect the impossible to become possible just because you are high on yourself. F.ex. you wont drive a car 100 km/h in a turn meant for 30 km/h.

With that said. I have understood that nobody can ensure you that jumping out of a plane is free of risk even with all precautions in hand. And if everything goes wrong your chances of a good end are pretty poor.

I have made my decision to jump, how many it will be only time will show, but i am at least going to experience free fall. So its time to focus on how to perform well and how to act in case of something unexpected happening. In less than a week I am hopefully falling (controlled and safely) from a blue sky (so enough posting from me until then

[airtwardo 6]

I think the clever ones wont push beyond their abilities...

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That will get you most of the way through however long you want to stay with it, but also keep in mind someone ELSE pushing beyond THEIR abilities can also get you bent.

And then there is always the Murphy lurks factor...

I believe it's all about mitigating risk, in order to do that you need to understand ALL of them and act appropriately.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Orange1 0]

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That will get you most of the way through however long you want to stay with it, but also keep in mind someone ELSE pushing beyond THEIR abilities can also get you bent.

.

As seen in a number of the canopy collision incidents... They say you can do everything right and still die. Part of this is you can do everything right and somebody else coming up behind you can still kill you.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Olmed 0]

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I think the clever ones wont push beyond their abilities...

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That will get you most of the way through however long you want to stay with it, but also keep in mind someone ELSE pushing beyond THEIR abilities can also get you bent.

And then there is always the Murphy lurks factor...

I believe it's all about mitigating risk, in order to do that you need to understand ALL of them and act appropriately.

Thanks! Grateful for every encouragement.

[Olmed 0]

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That will get you most of the way through however long you want to stay with it, but also keep in mind someone ELSE pushing beyond THEIR abilities can also get you bent.

.

As seen in a number of the canopy collision incidents... They say you can do everything right and still die. Part of this is you can do everything right and somebody else coming up behind you can still kill you.

Its good though to be aware of possible risk posted by the more experienced jumpers here. Not to scare away from the sport but to be motivate when it comes to honoring the safety issues.

In the end I guess everybody want to be safe.

[AndyMan 7]

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1) True, the bias they have has been there all along. But that doesn't change the fact that it is in their best interests to conclude & demonstrate that skydiving is getting "safer." Bias can exist for decades or even centuries, and be used to show a slow improvement. A slow improvement is actually desireable, for many reasons.

2) See above about comparing USPA numbers to DZ.com numbers.

Again, I'm not saying there's any kind of shenanigans going on. What I'm saying is that whether or not the sport TRULY is getting safer is a question no one can truly answer, because such conclusion is based either on annecdotal conjecture or data which is questionable both in completeness & compilation.

Some of the differences in statistics are easily explained. For example, USPA does not consider fatal plane crashes to be skydiving related, while they are included in the dropzone.com numbers. Additionally, USPA does not consider fatalities attributed to military jumps under orders, while dropzone.com does.

Differences in reported numbers does not mean the data is questionable, simply that different groups use different standards.

Regardless, in both cases - the trend is remarkably clear. Skydiving fatalities continue a long term trend downwards, even as the sport continues to grow. Amazing, really.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[airtwardo 6]

Skydiving fatalities continue a long term trend downwards, even as the sport continues to grow.

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Keeping in mind of course that fatalities are the only statistics being recorded, serious injuries aren't.

As someone stated above, we really have no true idea if the sport has gotten 'safer' or just less deadly.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

• Quote

[billvon 2,400]

>Then look at the numbers by individual year (for the US only, of course) that DZ.com
>has in its records. You'll see several discrepancies--variances of as much as 15%.

Yes. USPA does not report deaths due to aircraft crashes, so the numbers will not be the same.

>My point is merely that the primary source of the "total number of skydiving fatalities"
>(the USPA) has questionably accurate numbers.

Again, I have not seen a single skydiving fatality in the past ten years that USPA has missed. Have you?

>What I'm saying is that whether or not the sport TRULY is getting safer is a question no
> one can truly answer . . .

We have an answer that goes far beyond margins of error. Per jump, the sport is getting much safer.