SunCoastSkydive 0 #1 November 30, 2011 Dear skydivers, aircraft operators and DZ owners, We are an Australian company working on a new aircraft with the primary mission for skydiving. Our project is now well advanced and we would like more input from you, the skydiving community, please. The aircraft we are designing and certifying will be a ten-seat, production aircraft, made in Australia. The first model of the aircraft will be configured for skydiving and will be fitted with 2 crew seats. Later models with 2 crew seats and 8 PAX seats will follow quickly. Our aircraft will have an 800SHP turbine engine and carry up to 20 jumpers. Calculated operating cost show break-even point to be 7 jumpers per load. As a skydiver and aircraft operator myself, I believe our aircraft has already got many design features delivering significant benefits to skydivers - not least of which is improved skydiver safety. However, before the design draft is finalised, we would very much like your input. Could you please let us know what you think a great skydiving aircraft should have? (Sorry, it will not have a tail ramp) Engine (Type, model, power/size) Aircraft size (seats/jumpers) Performance Pay load Door size Door position Horizontal stabilisor position Undercarriage (height off ground) Wing Position Maintenance (any issues which you are currently having to address eg corrosion, constant engine overhaul and would like a solution to) Affordability (we estimate the aircraft sales price, including a turbine engine costing around $500+k - sorry, there are no cheap turbine engines - will be approx $1.3 million). Please don’t limit your feedback or ideas to the questions above - ANY idea or information is very valuable to us. Thank you for your input. If you would like any more information about our aircraft or its development progress please do not hesitate to contact us. Blue skies, Tibor Glesk / Air Ute Pty Ltd/ Sunshine Coast Skydivers.com.au m: 0408 915 415 e: [email protected] The following is further information on the AUXX10 design at present: The AUXX10 designed to meet the Needs of The Skydiving Industry § Single turboprop engine means reliability and operational economy § Standard inclusion of the largest skydiving door in the world (2mx1.8m) to provide safer exits for all skydivers (student, tandem, sport) § Standard inclusion of probably the most important safety feature in a skydiving aircraft - an internal horizontal stabiliser positioned high above the top of the door for the skydiver to brace themself on before exiting so neither the skydiver or their gear comes into contact with this stabiliser § The most spacious cabin in civilian skydiving aircraft for skydiver safety gives plenty of room for easy gearing-up prior to jump and to check and cross-check equipment. § Low undercarriage, 85cm off the ground means fast, easy boarding for skydivers without the need for detachable stairs/steps. § Powerful (800HP) modern turboprop engine delivers the fastest climb rate of 2364fpm, which in-turn means the quickest load time^ with 20 skydivers on board thus increasing operator profitability § Air Ute Pty Ltd have approached two of the world's leading turbine engine manufacturers with regard to being the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) for the AUXX10. Both companies have responded keenly. We are currently in final negotiations and will make a decision with regards to the OEM. § Simple systems, composite construction, modern turboprop engine means fast, money-saving maintenance with less downtime delivering increased profits. All aircraft have a service schedule and all components must be regularly inspected, checked and replaced - the AUXX10’s uncomplicated design makes maintenance far easier, because the fuselage is more durable and therefore maintenance costs less. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anvilbrother 0 #2 November 30, 2011 I'm confused I see you said the first production will be a skydiving oriented design, then you say 10 seat, 8 seat, and 20 passenger capacity all in 2 lines... Large door on the left side, 1000-1500 fpm climb rate in 90 degree weather, high horizontal stab, door that seals well in cold weather. Pt6 engine 4 blade prop Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SansSuit 1 #3 November 30, 2011 Take care of the pilot. Give him heat for the cold days and good airflow to keep him cool in the summer. And cup holders. Don't forget the cup holders.Peace, -Dawson. http://www.SansSuit.com The Society for the Advancement of Naked Skydiving Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GLIDEANGLE 1 #4 November 30, 2011 How about a skydiver restraint system designed and installled with the sincere intent to provide meaningful protection in a crash? See Appendix 3 in US FAA document AC 105-2D. http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC%20105-2D.pdfThe choices we make have consequences, for us & for others! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #5 November 30, 2011 Quote§ Standard inclusion of probably the most important safety feature in a skydiving aircraft - an internal horizontal stabiliser positioned high above the top of the door for the skydiver to brace themself on before exiting so neither the skydiver or their gear comes into contact with this stabiliser How can you brace yourself on it but not come into contact with it? I'm not sure what you're talking about, please explain in more detail. I'm not a pilot or DZO or anything like that, but I do have a mechanical design engineering background with Boeing and Honda, so I can't resist giving you some ideas. I would think that an existing engine type would be preferred, with as little customization to any of the hardware as possible being preferred to keep costs down, isn't that correct, or is it not possible to find an existing engine with the specs you desire? Are you planning on applying a FADEC? Most aircraft have notoriously poor fuel quantity indication systems (even the Boeing airliners prior to the 777 had quite inaccurate systems). I think making it less likely to be wrong about how much fuel is onboard (easy quick method of course) would be worthwhile. Perhaps there are some inexpensive ways of improving this, even if it is something that can only be done while on the ground, as I think skydiving operations are a bit more unique than most in the motivation to run with minimum fuel on board. Features to help keep the pilot more comfortable were mentioned, and are worthy of consideration. How about making the wearing of a pilot bailout rig more realistic, as it seems that it is not so easy to do in some aircraft. Perhaps I'm wrong about this being not so easy now or that it is even desirable. How about the comfort of skydivers? Please make it possible to have meaningful airflow to the cabin with the door closed. An outflow valve at the rear might be needed to give some ram-air coming in from the front. Of course you don't want to add the expense of a complicated mechanically driven outflow valve like on a pressurized airplane, but cars have very inexpensive passive one-way outflow valves in the trunk/boot area so that air flows from the dashboard vents through the cabin (to the back seats) into the trunk/boot and out. What kind of seating arrangement are you planning (side facing/rear facing)? For both side and rear facing benches/straddle benches think it would be nice if the material had a higher friction surface than normal (slick vinyl) so that it is easier to stay in place during a climb. How about really generous/rugged handles and steps for front and rear floaters. That doesn't mean encouraging extreme numbers outside, but make it easy for the proper number of floaters to hang on. Assuming you will apply a roll up door, how about making it difficult to impossible to damage the door by accidentally closing it too hard? Something should be possible that is inherent in the design without adding much cost at all. How about communication between those at the door and the pilots? Not that it is such a long distance, but it might be nice to have the ability to communicate in both directions, or even in one direction. It is very cool that you are doing this development. The PAC and Kodiak have already shown that there is a market for new aircraft, and it would seem that it might be attractive compared to the expense of rebuilding twin engine aircraft that have not much value in the airframe.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #6 November 30, 2011 >How can you brace yourself on it but not come into contact with it? I am picturing a continuous horizontal stabilizer with the door _below_ it. (You can't hit it because you start out directly below it.) Naturally this poses some CG issues. Unless you do a canard design and put the exit door beneath the main wing. >I would think that an existing engine type would be preferred Agreed. The PT6 series has decades of run time and repair experience. >An outflow valve at the rear might be needed to give some ram-air coming in from the front. Complicated! I am thinking a window that opens. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cocheese 0 #7 November 30, 2011 Tinted sun roof and see-thru floor/walls near the door. 20+ fresh air vents. Dash mounted rear view exit cam for the pilot.Tunes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #8 November 30, 2011 Quote >How can you brace yourself on it but not come into contact with it? I am picturing a continuous horizontal stabilizer with the door _below_ it. (You can't hit it because you start out directly below it.) Naturally this poses some CG issues. Perhaps that is what was meant, Perhaps the "bracing against it" was meant while in the plane (continuous horiz stab mentioned). It would seem that would imply an unusual location relative to the door (not far aft of it, and not far above it) that would still be vulnerable to head strikes and reserve PCs going above, and would there be room for rear floaters/camera aft of the door? Perhaps the stab is really high. On the subject of horiz stabs...since it is a new design...if the stab is at all vulnerable to a canopy going over it, then maybe a small sharp edge would be effective at cutting it cleanly? Or, maybe a slight sweep to the stab, and no snag points would allow a canopy to easily slide off before taking breaking the structure. Even a simple window, whether it opens or not, would be more expensive than the type of passive one-way outflow valve as used in cars.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
totter 2 #9 November 30, 2011 K.I.S.S. - Keep it simple stupid. Not calling you stupid, but from a relabilty/maintenance stand point there is another company ,(from that hemisphere), that incorporated a lot a bell and wistle type systems that can be rather problematic. It has been a 4 years since I've worked on a PAC, so they may have modified things, but a motorized inertial seperator may sound cool, but there are to many pieces to fail (i.e. motor, microswitches). Asymetrical flap cut-off that was problematic. Used springs, magnets and microswitches. In response to sundevil777's comment about a bailout rig, maybe it could be a seat type container, like you see the in old WWII fighter pilot pictures, but designed as an actual part of the seat (i.e. cushion). I'm sure that Bill Booth, if he doesn't already have some type of design, could come up with something. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SunCoastSkydive 0 #10 December 1, 2011 Thanks for your input - and for questioning the seemingly contradictory capacity! OK, the AUXX10 will have room for 20 jumpers WITHOUT seats - our first configuration is the no-seats version as skydivers don't need seats :). When the AUXX10 is configured with passenger seating it will have 10 passenger seats. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mchamp 1 #11 December 1, 2011 Quote In response to sundevil777's comment about a bailout rig, maybe it could be a seat type container, like you see the in old WWII fighter pilot pictures, but designed as an actual part of the seat (i.e. cushion). I'm sure that Bill Booth, if he doesn't already have some type of design, could come up with something. I'm sure he already has something in mind For info regarding lift ticket prices all around the world check out http://www.jumpticketprices.com/dropzones.asp Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #12 December 1, 2011 If it's due to launch in 2012 I would think you could post a picture of it. I would say that the most important things to skydivers would be the airframe design and those questions should have been asked a long time ago. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #13 December 1, 2011 QuoteIn response to sundevil777's comment about a bailout rig, maybe it could be a seat type container, like you see the in old WWII fighter pilot pictures, but designed as an actual part of the seat (i.e. cushion). I'm sure that Bill Booth, if he doesn't already have some type of design, could come up with something.what is wrong with back type parachutes ? Seats are pretty uneasy to escape from a plane. There are a couple of pretty sleek back PEP's out there.scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trae 1 #14 December 1, 2011 in repl to"Door size Door position " ........................... If its not a tailgater you're wasting your time. PLEASE give us a decent tailgate aircraft to jump out of . Side doors suck in comparison. can't wait to see it , all the best with your project. edited to add look at the Skyvan or Casa , imo that is getting very close to an ideal skydiving aircraft, very versatile. Where the Skyvan falls down a bit is being able tpo see out easily. Being able to stand up in the jump plane is a major advantage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bluetwo 0 #15 December 1, 2011 Is it too late to put the rear wings and elevators at the top of the verticle stabilizer? Or is that only good for smaller, sport planes? I really don't know if or how that stuff works._______________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Austintxflight 0 #16 December 1, 2011 somewhere to keep the champagne on ice, my hands always get cold holding the bottle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SunCoastSkydive 0 #17 December 2, 2011 Thank you for your comments - sorry, this got typed up wrong - we meant the horizontal stablizer on our aircraft is far back and high above the door so there is no chance of a skydiver ever coming into contact with it however they choose to exit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #18 December 2, 2011 QuoteThank you for your comments - sorry, this got typed up wrong - we meant the horizontal stablizer on our aircraft is far back and high above the door so there is no chance of a skydiver ever coming into contact with it however they choose to exit. Have you considered having a larger than normal elevator to help prevent stalling? I guess it is the same as asking if the plane allows an extreme rear center of gravity compared to normal design norms, except that a plane would be expected to be able to take off at the aft CG limit, instead of just being able to withstand it while in level flight at 90 kts.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deltron80 0 #19 December 2, 2011 Quote Tinted sun roof and see-thru floor/walls near the door. 20+ fresh air vents. Dash mounted rear view exit cam for the pilot.Tunes. I must agree here. We demand a top-of-the-line sound system as well as a built-in oxygen system! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #20 December 3, 2011 QuoteHave you considered having a larger than normal elevator to help prevent stalling? I guess it is the same as asking if the plane allows an extreme rear center of gravity compared to normal design norms, Too much elevator would screw up the control balance while everyone was in their seats (or the plane was empty). Moving the elelvator up will take care of some of that problem. In addition to making a tailstrike less likely, it keeps the elevator up in the clean air, out of the burble of the jumpers in the door, maintaining good airflow over the elevator with jumpers floating. That aside, I'm confused about this thread in general. The questions being asked are basic, basic, configuration questions, and there's no way on earth to take a plane that hasn't made it that far in the design process, and have it certified by the FAA by 2012. A clean sheet design will take years to achieve certification, and the majority of the questions asked would have to be answered within the first six months of development. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #21 December 3, 2011 QuoteThat aside, I'm confused about this thread in general. The questions being asked are basic, basic, configuration questions, and there's no way on earth to take a plane that hasn't made it that far in the design process, and have it certified by the FAA by 2012. A clean sheet design will take years to achieve certification, and the majority of the questions asked would have to be answered within the first six months of development. Quite right! If it was a year away from approval, they should be marketing it about now.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #22 December 3, 2011 Quote Quote That aside, I'm confused about this thread in general. The questions being asked are basic, basic, configuration questions, and there's no way on earth to take a plane that hasn't made it that far in the design process, and have it certified by the FAA by 2012. A clean sheet design will take years to achieve certification, and the majority of the questions asked would have to be answered within the first six months of development. Quite right! If it was a year away from approval, they should be marketing it about now. Probably a good job the plane in question is in Australia then. You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #23 December 3, 2011 Just copy Grand Caravan and modify stuff from there???Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #24 December 3, 2011 QuoteJust copy Grand Caravan and modify stuff from there??? ....................................................................... Larger wing, more powerful engine and a cabin 2 metres tall. To keep maintenance costs down, the engine should already be in wide use (e.g. one of the more powerful versions of Pratt & Whitney's PT6A). How many standard shipping containers are 2 metres tall? The original poster is never going to recoup his investment by selling to skydivers, so he would be wiser designing a cabin useful for oil exploration or the over-night parcel business. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #25 December 3, 2011 QuoteJust copy Grand Caravan and modify stuff from there??? Here's a start...http://www.blackhawk.aero/commercial-products/aircraft/cessna-caravan/---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites