how do you stop a low radical turn from killing you when you know it is probably going to?

[jeremyneas 0]

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A cross braced 9-cell canopy does not have any advantage over cross braced canopies with respect to pulling out of a dive

I'd like to address this, maybe to learn something.

First out of personal experience, i have found that the 9 (stilettos) and 7 (spectres) cell canopies i have flown have alot more forgiving characteristics when it comes to pulling your ass out of the corner when low. I have flown similer sized FX and VX canopies that have considerably less umph to get out of similier situations. Luckally I noticed it up high and began to pull out of it, but just thinking that a little lower and it would have been iffy at best.

Second, from the manufacturers standpoint. Mind you, i'm not cutting these parachutes. Icarus boasts a selling point of tail deflection. According to them, traditional canopies have a 20%, FX sits at 11% and the VX at 8.7%. If you found yourself diving toward the earth and yanking on the toggles in panic to get out, with 20% tail deflection, your going to produce more drag, and more drag is going to slow you down faster to plane out faster...maybe more abruptly, but faster safer.

Derek, I liked (and understood) what you said but you didn't address the drag situation.

[billvon 2,426]

>So, i'm coming in straight & need to turn to my left; you're saying I
>should flare harder w/ the right toggle?

Basically yes. You're trying to do two different things - get the canopy over your head again and flare hard. If you flare without getting the canopy over your head, the canopy will create lift out to the side - and that's not where you need lift when you're that low. So you start a flare, and pull one toggle down more than the other until the canopy is (approximately) over your head again. Then you even the toggles to stop the turn.

One important note on this - if you do this and you manage to both stop the turn and arrest your descent at, say, 40 feet, do not let up both toggles! If you do, your canopy will dive to recover its normal airspeed. If that happens, the best approach is usually to hold the toggles there, perhaps letting them back up _a_little_ so the canopy doesn't dive. Flare hard before you land and get ready to do a PLF. You won't get a great flare because you've already lost a lot of speed by using your brakes, but you'll probably land OK.

>Do you mean that if the canopy is going slowly & once the toggles
>are droped it picks up speed & dives.

Yes.

Do this experiment - flare your canopy hard, all the way, above 1000 feet, then let up on the toggles rapidly. The canopy will dive towards the ground to pick up speed, then level out when it is back at its "trim" speed. (The trim speed is the speed the parachute wants to fly at when you're not touching the toggles.)

Then do a second experiment. Turn your canopy hard with one toggle, then let it up. You'll notice your canopy is going _faster_ than trim speed, and it gradually levels itself out to return to trim speed. You want a speed between those two speeds (too slow and too fast) when you come out of the turn.

A flat turn is all about turning without losing too much altitude, then coming out of the turn at trim speed. That way if you have to flare immediately, you can - you're at normal flying speed.

[billvon 2,426]

>If you found yourself diving toward the earth and yanking on the
> toggles in panic to get out, with 20% tail deflection, your going to
> produce more drag, and more drag is going to slow you down faster
> to plane out faster...maybe more abruptly, but faster safer.

Drag will not save you. Round canopies work on the principle of drag; a 135 sq ft round canopy (i.e. a 13 ft diameter round) will break your femurs if you try to land it. The only way a ram-air canopy can land you safely is by translating your energy into lift; that's what a flare is all about.

A modern ram-air canopy gives you a tremendous amount of control over how you generate lift and drag, and it's possible to correct even serious mistakes in your approach if you recognize them quickly and react correctly. If you know what you're doing, a canopy that gives you more lift on command will save your life more often than a canopy that gives you less lift and more drag (all other factors being equal.)

[Hooknswoop 19]

[Quote]A cross braced 9-cell canopy does not have any advantage over cross braced canopies with respect to pulling out of a dive

I meant a non cross braced canopy 9-cell canopy does not have any advantage over cross braced canopies with respect to pulling out of a dive. Typo.

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I'd like to address this, maybe to learn something.

First out of personal experience, i have found that the 9 (stilettos) and 7 (spectres) cell canopies i have flown have alot more forgiving characteristics when it comes to pulling your ass out of the corner when low. I have flown similer sized FX and VX canopies that have considerably less umph to get out of similier situations. Luckally I noticed it up high and began to pull out of it, but just thinking that a little lower and it would have been iffy at best.

Cross braced canopies tend to have a longer recovery arc, but pull out of the dive better because they produce more lift and distort less than non-cross-braced canopies. I would rather be pulling out of a dive under a cross braced canopy than a non cross braced canopy, all others things being equal.

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Second, from the manufacturers standpoint. Mind you, i'm not cutting these parachutes. Icarus boasts a selling point of tail deflection. According to them, traditional canopies have a 20%, FX sits at 11% and the VX at 8.7%.

From Icarus’s web page:

“Bulge distortion is minimized to the point that the canopy is held so well into shape that any cross section of the canopy will show a maximum airfoil distortion of only 8.75% from the desired shape. (compared to 11.5% on 21 cell X-Braced designs and over 20% on conventional 9-cells).”

Bulge distortion, or the amount the non load bearing ribs ‘rise’ relative to the loaded ribs and the amount the skin is allowed to bulge outward between ribs. With the extra rib per cell and the cross bracing, bulge distortion is reduced on tri-cell cross braced canopies. Nothing about “tail deflection”. The tail is deflected by the steering lines.

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If you found yourself diving toward the earth and yanking on the toggles in panic to get out, with 20% tail deflection, your going to produce more drag, and more drag is going to slow you down faster to plane out faster...maybe more abruptly, but faster safer.

You can pull the toggles farther down on a crss braced canopy without it stalling. Yanking the toggles too far will put the canopy into a stall by exceeding the critical angle of attack. The “G” forces produced by the maneuver. Stall speed increases to the square root of the load factor. For example with 4 “G’s”, you double the stall speed.

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Derek, I liked (and understood) what you said but you didn't address the drag situation.

Pulling down the toggles increases the lift and adds drag, both of which will return the canopy back over your head. Pulling them too far leads to an accelerated stall which will cause more altitude to be lost before the canopy is back overhead than having the toggles a bit higher and not stalling the canopy. The canopy doesn’t have to collapse for it to be stalled.

Derek

[jeremyneas 0]

i'm still not convinced...yet. mostly becuase my personal experience has shown me otherwise. mind you i'm not pulling out every jump, it's probably only happened to me 5 times (i can recall) when the pucker factor told me to GET OUT. but, 1 was a spectre, 1 on a stiletto, 1 on a batwing, and 2 on a VX. the VX just didn't give me the immediate response the others did. and the greatest responce came from the batwing, in which a 180 was done in the stupidest of fashion.

[billvon 2,426]

>what i find boggling . . .

You'll find this througout skydiving. There will always be someone saying "Hey, if you have to ask, you don't deserve an answer." Don't let that stop you - use your judgement to decide what questions to ask and who to listen to when they answer you. Not knowing something can kill you in this sport; the more you know the more chance you'll have to avoid those "learning experiences" that put some people out of the sport permanently.

That being said, also realize that book knowledge (or web knowledge) can never replace experience or hands-on training. I think the wisest path is to use places like this (i.e. the web, advice by the bonfire, stuff you read in parachutist) as background information, then decide on your own which advice is valid and which isn't.

[billvon 2,426]

>i'm still not convinced...yet.

What convinced me was comparing my old PD190 to a friend's Stiletto 190. The Stiletto was dangerously unstable at the loading I was using it at (under 1 to 1) but reacted _much_ more strongly to a panic flare. The PD190, at 1500+ jumps, generated plenty of drag but very little lift. If you put me under both canopies at 100 feet, pointed straight at the ground, the Stiletto would do a much better job of leveling me out before impact. Its construction and fabric allowed it to create much more lift than the old, draggy PD190 - and lift is what will save you if you find yourself pointed at the ground at 100 feet.

[Chrisky 0]

Yeah but my point is what makes you think you'll be able to react instinctively right, when you just acted instinctively WRONG?

I took your "low turn" as "the too low turn" people get injured or killed with. There is no way out of that one, or else it is a low, but recoverable one. And how to recover from a turn? Well, level out, either by letting up the toggle (wont help in that scenario tho) or pull the other one down to level (might help).

And to emergency recover (going to as much level brakes w/o stalling) you cannot really use muscle memory IMO, as it will depend on the direction of the turn you took, so there's no instinctly right thing there. Wrong muscle memory might only make thinkgs worse, if you pull the wrong toggle...
Except maybe just hitting the brakes to level.

BUT either you are high enough to instantly flare an touch down (flare being the recover/level out), OR you are too low anyway.

When you are under a certain altitude, everything is better than a low turn. Above, you might recover going to brakes as far as possible without stalling. Below, you are f*ed Simple as that.
Just open your eyes and AVOID IT.

This may require thinking for others...

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[jeremyneas 0]

Alright, i'm feeling it. I can see you points. I didn't jump today and learned something.

Although, we could just get a bunch of mattresses and have a demo.

Good thing i don't swoop anymore, i was way out of my league

[webracer 0]

Chrisky illustrates my point perhaps more effectively. Unfortunately, when we banter via written word, things get misunderstood. I read your inital post as a question you did not need an answer to, but that you thought others would like to know.
That is apparently not the case. I apologize for any wrong I may have done you with regards to this.
A point I feel strongly about is teaching avoidance first, recovery last. I would rather someone prevent a malfunction rather than spend hours practicing to deal with it. Low turns are always avoidable, although the consequences may be argued.
I mention how to flare effectively and how to act if you flare too high, too low, or in a turn. I do this in the fjc, and it was done in mine. At my dz, students jump Sabre2 canopies loaded at 1:1.
It is quite different than most student gear.
Ultimately, my response is still: DO NOT TURN LOW!
If you find yourself in that situation, you should instinctively FLARE! If it isn't instinct yet, keep practicing in your mind. Visualize the situation, and react.
Also, If you find yourself in a low-turn situation, reacting as soon as possible will be the biggest factor in how well you walk away (if you do).

Troy

I am now free to exercise my downward mobility.

[Auryn 0]

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4. If you do hit very hard and end up airborne again - keep flying the canopy. I know a few people who got most of their injuries when they hit the second time.

I have very personal experience with this when I was starting to swoop.. I hit, got airborne, corrected my toggles and straightened the canopy out enough to actually stand up the landing.. end result.. a busted up wrist only, it could have been worse. No matter what, don't ever stop flying your canopy.

Blue Ones !!

Bryan

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[webracer 0]

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You'll find this througout skydiving. There will always be someone saying "Hey, if you have to ask, you don't deserve an answer." Don't let that stop you - use your judgement to decide what questions to ask and who to listen to when they answer you. Not knowing something can kill you in this sport; the more you know the more chance you'll have to avoid those "learning experiences" that put some people out of the sport permanently.

That being said, also realize that book knowledge (or web knowledge) can never replace experience or hands-on training. I think the wisest path is to use places like this (i.e. the web, advice by the bonfire, stuff you read in parachutist) as background information, then decide on your own which advice is valid and which isn't.

Another very solid post from billvon. You hit the nail on the head again. This post should be included in a sticky.

Troy

I am now free to exercise my downward mobility.

[andy2 0]

[QUOTE]A stall can happen at any airspeed.[/QUOTE]

derek, do you think a stall is more likely to happen at a higher airspeed? Or is it just that at higher speeds youre more likely to panic and overbrake pulling oneself out of the "corner"?

I've experimented up high a little and while going fast my canopy tended to stall more often with hard inputs than while going slow. What do you think?

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[Hooknswoop 19]

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derek, do you think a stall is more likely to happen at a higher airspeed? Or is it just that at higher speeds youre more likely to panic and overbrake pulling oneself out of the "corner"?

It is harder to stall with the higher airspeed, but will still stall. The problem with being lowin a dive is your reactions are to bury the toggles in order to pendulum back under the canopy before impacting the ground. Too much toggles also creates more "G" forces which raises the airspeed the canopy will stall at. There is a maximum recovery position of the toggles, not enough and it isn't recovering as fast as it could and too much and it isn't recovering as fast as it could. I think it is the round rushing up that can over ride what the pilot knows they should do and they pull too much toggle, stalling the canopy and 'mushing' into the ground. Ever see the video of the F-18 hitting the runway at the airshow? It is about 10-15 degrees nose up, descending into the runway as it hits. It stalled into the ground.

Derek

[Newbie 0]

no need to apologise man, i totally see your points, and yeah things do get misunderstood on here, but thanks for clarifying, i do appreciate that - and avoidance of these sorts of situations is something i spend more time thinking about and planning for. I still have a lot to learn and while learning about trying to prepare for a bad situation is important, i totally appreciate that avoidance of that situation is more important. I just want to try and cover both

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[freakflyer69 0]

I do teach low turn recovery in my FJC, not failed swoop recovery.

[steve1 5]

I'm still wondering if I had given my canopy more toggle last Spring, if it would have saved me a trip to the emergency room. I'm still dealing with a serious limp. I really appreciate the info. here on how to recover from a low turn. I still have plenty to learn on flying a canopy. About half my jumps are on para-commanders.

I posted the details earlier, but maybe I'll post them again, in case anyone out there doesn't know what a dumb ass I am.

I had run with the wind too long and waited till the last minute to initiate a turn. Not jumping all winter didn't help any. At any rate I had a nice flat turn going. But I didn't realize how slow it would be to get turned back around. I was over a fence and highway. So, I gave it way too much toggle and let it back up.

Next thing you know the ground was racing up to get me.....I went to half brakes in hopes that might help. Then I slammed into the ground like a ton of bricks. God, that hurt!

I lived on pain pills for a couple weeks after. Nothing was broke on the x-rays, but I may have a permanent limp out of the deal. At any rate, I'm still wondering if more toggle would have brought me out of this arc into the ground. Possibly, it would have made it worse. I plan to do a lot of experimenting with this up high. I don't want there to be a next time....Steve1

[tbrown 26]

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DO NOT TURN LOW !
think ahead.
problem solved.

with all due respect, that doesn't solve anything for the hapless jumpers who do turn because they panic.

You mentioned making sudden panic turns, as in a situation where somebody cuts you off on final. Bill Von has given some excellent advice on making emergency flat turns. I started practicing them up high and I'm happy to say the technique saved my ass when somebody deliberately cut me off on final.

This guy was crowding me so much to one side I yelled at him. Then, turning and looking straight at me, the fucker turned 90 degrees in front of me, maybe 50 ft off the deck. I remember "time slowing down" as I told myself not to panic and not to punch a toggle down deep. I tugged just the slightest bit of right toggle and then immediately matched it with my left toggle. That''s all it took for me to neatly slide behind the guy by maybe 10 - 15 ft, as well as float up a little higher than him. My toggles were still about head high and I had enough spped & energy in the canopy for a decent flared standup landing.

It doesn't take much to miss somebody, just a few feet. As long as you don't hit them, you're basically good to go.

I realize this doesn't deal with recovering from a low radical turn. But it's really important to teach yourself how not to react with a hard turn when things get sticky down low to the ground.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[bob.dino 0]

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This guy was crowding me so much to one side I yelled at him. Then, turning and looking straight at me, the fucker turned 90 degrees in front of me, maybe 50 ft off the deck. I remember "time slowing down" as I told myself not to panic and not to punch a toggle down deep. I tugged just the slightest bit of right toggle and then immediately matched it with my left toggle. That''s all it took for me to neatly slide behind the guy by maybe 10 - 15 ft, as well as float up a little higher than him. My toggles were still about head high and I had enough spped & energy in the canopy for a decent flared standup landing.

I sincerely hope he was grounded. Or that you broke his nose.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I tugged just the slightest bit of right toggle and then immediately matched it with my left toggle. That''s all it took for me to neatly slide behind the guy by maybe 10 - 15 ft, as well as float up a little higher than him.

Are there any funny effects on the canopy flying right behind another guy?

(more familar with the effect on sailing, where there is only wind and no gravity)

[dragon2 0]

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I tugged just the slightest bit of right toggle and then immediately matched it with my left toggle. That''s all it took for me to neatly slide behind the guy by maybe 10 - 15 ft, as well as float up a little higher than him.

Are there any funny effects on the canopy flying right behind another guy?

(more familar with the effect on sailing, where there is only wind and no gravity)

Yeah there's turbulence behind a canopy, up a bit (because the canopy is moving down), and slightly to the sides.
Something to be wary about, I'd suggest trying some CRW if you haven't experienced this yet

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[riggerrob 558]

... PLR (Parachute Landing Roll).

Derek

[billvon 2,426]

>Are there any funny effects on the canopy flying right behind another guy?

Yes, you will experience his wake turbulence, which is a complex cyclonic turbulence coming off his wing. If it behaves anything at all like aircraft wake turbulence, it will be worst behind the heaviest jumpers just as they are flaring.

[wmw999 2,146]

Note, however, that the funny effects, while possibly significant, are less likely to hurt you than continuing a hard turn to the ground.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[bob.dino 0]

PLR is the term now used by the APF when teaching students. Works well in getting across the correct idea.