how do you stop a low radical turn from killing you when you know it is probably going to?

[Hooknswoop 19]

Of course not turning low is the best solution, but it does happen. “Be more careful packing” is not how to answer, “What do I do if I get a bag-lock?” “Cutaway and pull your reserve” is the answer. I haven’t seen low turn recovery techniques covered in first jump courses. I have seen (and taught) no low turns.

I think the original poster was asking for himself and hoping that others may benefit from the answers as well. A fair question with some good answers.

Derek

[ianmdrennan 2]

Quote

Superior pilots use their superior judgement to avoid having to use their superior skills." Or - solve the problem at 500ft, not 25 ft.

That is a spectacular quote. Accurate and to the point.

Nice.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[freeflyguy 0]

Here is my worst turn. I turned at what seemed like a normal height. But it wasn't. It was probably a combination of a little low, and turning over a very hot road, that bordered green grass. It was a 180.

I still walk fine because...

I buried the toggles. People talk about stalling, but in real life, on toggles, I haven't found that they stall that quick.

Knees together and slightly off to the side. Legs bent a bit.

When I hit, first with my left toe/ankle, still flying the canopy, then hard on my left calve. Since my knees weren't directly in front of me, it pushed them off to the side. That may have saved a femur.

At that point the canopy decided to pick me up. So I bounced good, and kept flying it to a scary stand up.

My calve was sore for over a month. That ground in grass stain on my jumpsuit is still there, after two years.

Lessons,

I don't care what you all say, once I was in that position, If I hadn't stabbed out of it, and held the toggles down, it would have been worse. Had my knees been directly in front of me, and no bend at the knee, probably broken femur, pelvis, and If I quit flying the canopy, head injury. We have all read that accident report. I was loaded at about 1.5 then, by the way.

So, in spite of turning low, I walk just fine.

Hope that helps.

----------------------------
bzzzz

[EricaH 0]

Quote

Flat turn and flare simultaneously.

How do you do this? Isn't a flat turn w/ rear risers & flare is typically w/ toggels.
Do you mean to flat turn (ie. w/ rear risers) & flare w/ rear risers by pulling down on both of them, but to cause a turn pull on one more than the other & finish by pulling the higher one down to match the lower?

Also, people keep saying to practice things up high - great advice which I follow. But unless it's a radical movement, I can notice nothing.
When I practice flat turns up high, I can't tell if I've sunk 2 or 15 feet.
Also "You may find that your canopy stalls at some point i.e. you pull even harder but you don't get as much lift." I never FEEL lift. When I'm landing - I can see that my desent rate decreases & that must be lift, but I've never felt lift (and I've practiced flaring & stalling up high) - I have to figure out what's going on by looking @ my canopy & judging it against what I figure flat to be.

And, I've gone though canopy school.

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[marks 0]

Quote

I don't care what you all say, once I was in that position, If I hadn't stabbed out of it, and held the toggles down, it would have been worse. Had my knees been directly in front of me, and no bend at the knee, probably broken femur, pelvis, and If I quit flying the canopy, head injury. We have all read that accident report. I was loaded at about 1.5 then, by the way

like i said... dig like your life depends on it...

hahaha

but you can stall it .. but on the toggles it is much less likely than if you were on your rears...

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

How do you do this? Isn't a flat turn w/ rear risers & flare is typically w/ toggels.
Do you mean to flat turn (ie. w/ rear risers) & flare w/ rear risers by pulling down on both of them, but to cause a turn pull on one more than the other & finish by pulling the higher one down to match the lower?

All inputs with toggles. Rear risers will cause a stall faster than toggles. Similar to why an airplane will stall at a higher speed with no flaps, a canopy will stall at a higher speed on rear risers than on toggles.

You may not realize that a canopy has stalled because stalling a canopy by burying the toggles after a low turn and slowly burying the toggles from full flight until it stalls feels completely different and the canopy reacts differently. Either way, the canopy is stalled and the recovery arc is longer than if it wasn't stalled, which means it will take more altitude to get back under the canopy.

Derek

[EricaH 0]

Ok... I can def visualize the difference. Thanks for describing it to me. I'll try a turn into a stall up high.

But I still don't know how to do both at once, flat turn & flare.
I thought there was a difference between a flat turn & a flare turn. Flat being w/ rear risers & flare being to bring both toggels partially down, then letting slightly up on one to turn & then bring it back down to match it, then flaring both evenly.

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[Zoter 0]

Hey webracer...give the guy a break !
I have read all the posts here and Newbie is only asking more experienced canopy pilots about their experiences and methods....he's not saying he's going to do the same as a pilot who has over 1000 jumps !!.......

Granted the DZ.com forum can be a source of 'pure' misinformation....but give a guy some respect !! myself and just about anybody I know in the sport would ALWAYS consult with a local instructor before attemping or putting into practice any advice suggested on the 'com.......if people didnt then jeez...how did they get past the basic licence...??

I understand YOU or others ( or me in the future) wouldnt want to be responsible for passing on YOUR views that led to some sort of accident/incident....but give the guy his due....he just wants your views....what he does with them after that is up to him...and there are PLENTY of experienced people out there watching /contributing to these forums EVERYDAY ....and IMHO....these 'moderators' ....and we all know who they are....'big up ' the good advice and 'poo poo' the bad stuff.
And if that aint enough ...just change your signature line to ' BUT ALWAYS check this with your instructor first'.....anything happens after that....IMHO its natural selection.
Newbies like us...just like to get a rounded view of things...not because we ARE going to do stuff that you say WORKS for you...but because we want to get a broader view on our education....thats all...
BTW...dont flame me...! I respect your experience!

[FrogNog 1]

> First off, prevent the problem beforehand by practicing intentional low turns.
> Learn to flat turn and flare turn up high, then gradually try it lower and lower.
> Once you've done enough of them, you will instinctively do them when someone
> cuts you off or you realize you have to turn into the wind.

This is what I learned from reading the forums a lot: low turns happen, so practice flat turns a lot for when, not if, you have to make one to avoid something ugly down low. So now I practice flat turns. I started up high and have brought them down to my pattern.

On turning into the wind: if things get down low and my only problem is I'm heading downwind, I will personally take my chances on a sliding high-groundspeed landing rather than a last-second turn. I haven't gotten into this situation yet but I assume if I do it's because the wind changed unexpectedly, I'm keeping with an established landing pattern to maintain predictable traffic flow (and either the wind changed or the first jumper who landed needs a beating), or I've already just done something funky like a low (flat, I hope) turn to avoid the alligators infesting the swoop pond. In all these situations, a downwind landing is the correct answer to me.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[billvon 2,427]

>but the question you posed, sortof like a troll . . .

A question of this sort is not a troll; it is why the forum is here in the first place.

> is covered (or should be) in every first jump course.

I have never seen a FJC cover how to recover from a failed swoop.

>What you propose is that we train to get out of a situation rather
> than to not get into it in the first place.

Any skydiver interested in safety does both. Good packing skills does not mean it's OK to not know emergency procedures - you need both to be a safe skydiver.

[billvon 2,427]

>How do you do this? Isn't a flat turn w/ rear risers & flare is typically
>w/ toggels.

No, and I recommend NOT using rear risers to do flat turns. If you ever do find yourself in an emergency situation you will not have time to grab risers. Flat turns can be done quite well with toggles.

To do this, flare, but flare unevenly. If you're turning left, flare harder with the right toggle. Once the parachute is above you again, then make sure your hands come back to the same level so you don't continue a turn in the other direction.

>When I practice flat turns up high, I can't tell if I've sunk 2 or 15 feet.

That's a very important observation; it's why practicing a flare even 100 times up high isn't the same as practicing 1 on a real landing. Despite what people say, pulling high and flaring a lot does not do much to improve your landing skills (although it gets you used to the feel of the canopy.)

On flat turns - the thing you can practice up high is entry and exit. When you finish the flat turn, you should be able to drop the toggles completely and have the canopy continue along as if nothing happened. If the canopy is going slowly when you drop the toggles, and dives to recover the speed - use less opposite toggle next time. If the canopy is going faster when you drop the toggles, as if you've just done a toggle turn - use more opposite toggle next time.

Once you get that down, you can practice very gentle flat turns much lower, at 50-100 feet. Try coming in 10 degrees of the windline and flat-turning back into the wind. At that altitude, even if you screw up and do a 10 degree toggle turn you'll be able to recover in time.

>Also "You may find that your canopy stalls at some point i.e. you
>pull even harder but you don't get as much lift." I never FEEL lift.

Even when you do a hard turn and then bury both toggles? Most people feel that as an increase in weight (i.e. G-forces.) It's the same sort of G-force feeling you get during a hard spiral.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

But I still don't know how to do both at once, flat turn & flare.
I thought there was a difference between a flat turn & a flare turn. Flat being w/ rear risers & flare being to bring both toggels partially down, then letting slightly up on one to turn & then bring it back down to match it, then flaring both evenly.

I use the terms 'flare turn' and 'flat turn' interchangably. Some may call a turn with rear risers flat a turn and a turn from half brakes a flare turn though. Kinda confusing.

To clarify, step one after a too low turn is to stop turning. This stops things from getting worse. Step two, is to get the toggles to the maximum recovery position as quickly as possible to get back under the canopy as soon as posible. so wherever the toggles are at, regardles if one has to go up and the other down or both down, stop turning and put the toggles in the max recovery position as quickly as possible. Prepare to PLR and don't give up.

Derek

[billvon 2,427]

>But I still don't know how to do both at once, flat turn & flare.

To me, a flat turn is a manuever you do when you still have some altitude and want to lose as little altitude as possible i.e. come out of the turn flying. A flare turn is a turn done during the flare i.e. the point is that you are flaring and want to turn to avoid something. At the end of the flare your objective is to be standing up.

[webracer 0]

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I have never seen a FJC cover how to recover from a failed swoop.

The original poster did not request information on how to recover from a failed swoop. Specifically he stated:

Quote

This is not meant to be about giving people advice on how to go and make an emergency recovery from a swoop attempt gone wrong, it should be about how to get yourself out of a dangerous and potentially fatal situation when you have had to make a low turn due to unforeseen circumstances like emergency manoevering to avoid another canopy, powerlines, moving aircraft etc (and yes, we all know they should be spotted before going up in the air, or while in the air, but we all know that doesn't always happen).

I do teach low turn recovery in my FJC, not failed swoop recovery.

Troy

I am now free to exercise my downward mobility.

[EricaH 0]

Than you so much for taking the time Billvon & Hooknswoops!!! Your input is priceless, I learn things better by reading, imagining, talking it through & then visually on the ground, then up high. Haven't really tried anything low just yet.

Quote

To do this, flare, but flare unevenly. If you're turning left, flare harder with the right toggle. Once the parachute is above you again, then make sure your hands come back to the same level so you don't continue a turn in the other direction.

So, i'm coming in straight & need to turn to my left; you're saying I should flare harder w/ the right toggle? (Typically that would make me turn right, but my body would (slightly) swing to the left.) Then, once i've turned far enough, even-out the toggles by bringing the higher one down to even level (to stop the turn) & then finish the flare evenly.

Quote

On flat turns - the thing you can practice up high is entry and exit. When you finish the flat turn, you should be able to drop the toggles completely and have the canopy continue along as if nothing happened. If the canopy is going slowly when you drop the toggles, and dives to recover the speed - use less opposite toggle next time. If the canopy is going faster when you drop the toggles, as if you've just done a toggle turn - use more opposite toggle next time.

Thank you!! I love this idea. But do have another question (sorry!!). In "If the canopy is going slowly when you drop the toggles, and dives to recover the speed - use less opposite toggle next time." Do you mean that if the canopy is going slowly & once the toggles are droped it picks up speed & dives.
Also in, "If the canopy is going faster when you drop the toggles, as if you've just done a toggle turn - use more opposite toggle next time" do you mean if the canopy is going faster & then slowes down after dropping the toggles?

Quote

Also "You may find that your canopy stalls at some point i.e. you pull even harder but you don't get as much lift." I never FEEL lift.

Even when you do a hard turn and then bury both toggles? Most people feel that as an increase in weight (i.e. G-forces.) It's the same sort of G-force feeling you get during a hard spiral.

If I do a hard turn (ie. one toggle is all the way down) & then burry the other toggle to match the other one; my body rapidly swings back to straight & my canopy starts to stop, eventually stalling if I've burried them far enough. But feel lift... no.

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[trigger 0]

Yeah!But in all fareness,any radical turn,be it a 'panic initiated avoidence turn' or a mis-judged high performance landing its still a TOO lower a turn and this thread has gone along way to describe what i call urgent recovery,which is what you do given the presence of mind if you make such a TOO low turn.

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[FrogNog 1]

Quote

Quote

To do this, flare, but flare unevenly. If you're turning left, flare harder with the right toggle. Once the parachute is above you again, then make sure your hands come back to the same level so you don't continue a turn in the other direction.

So, i'm coming in straight & need to turn to my left; you're saying I should flare harder w/ the right toggle?

From your text I don't know if you're talking about the same thing your quotee was talking about. (Of course, I'm not 100% sure what the quotee was talking about.) I think the "uneven flare" is not for when you're coming straight in on final and everything is hunky-dory. I believe it's for when you're in a turn only a couple seconds from the ground and you want to hit less hard and more upright (i.e. with the canopy more over you and level). If I am guessing all this right, then that means if you are in a left turn near the ground you would flare except flare more with the right toggle, which would try and do two things at once: reduce your downward and forward speed and bring the canopy back up over you. Once the canopy is directly overhead, even up the toggles to avoid going from a low left turn to an even lower right turn as the canopy goes swoosh! right over your head. :)

If you're coming in straight and everything is cool except you need to turn left, you just want to make a gentle left turn. There are plenty of ways to do this. A "flat turn" a.k.a. "braked turn" (as I understand the terminology) is supposed to give you a good rate of heading change without increasing your forward or downward speed dangerously like a hard "normal" toggle turn does.

The way I read to learn to do flat turns is:
* as with all new maneuvers, start way up high (so if you hose up, you have plenty of time to save your butt)
* go to half brakes (i.e. both toggles) then pull down a bit more on one toggle and let up the same amount on the other toggle.
* adjust from there until you can change your heading quickly and safely.

Things to adjust include how far into brakes you go to do this, how much further down you pull the "inside" toggle, how much further you let up on the "outside" toggle, and some details about how to stop the turn that frankly I have ignored because I just even up the toggles back to the braked position and call it good.

If you were already on top of this and I'm misunderstanding whether you are misunderstanding, then just totally ignore me.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[EricaH 0]

Quote

I believe it's for when you're in a turn only a couple seconds from the ground and you want to hit less hard and more upright.

Duh!! THANK YOU!! I had totally swiched from recovering from a low turn to how to do a flat turn. You did read my confusion correctly & cleared it up correctly.

That and the description of a flat turn. If enough people describe the same thing... eventually it'll make perfect sense to me.

Thank you all so much!!

Can't wait to either travel south or for spring so I can pull high & try this stuff out.

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[Newbie 0]

i don't understand this line of thought man. Like i said to Kallend im asking this so that i can better prepare myself for every eventuality and did you miss this:
"I'm sure i could learn a thing or two more myself on this, so would welcome any tidbits of advice that the most experienced can give. "

from my original post??

If that helps out someone else, all the better. I might be one of those people that bounces off the floor when i panic and forget to flat turn. You think i'm so high and mighty to ask this for other people's benefit? I'm not so naive as to think i cant make a mistake that could seriously mess me up and i hope i never get that way while jumping.

Did they teach you about urgent recovery, or flat turns on your fjc because they didn't on mine. The first i heard of emergency recovery was from Chris Lynch on his canopy seminar - my fjc taught me how to flare and when, and how to plf, end of. Why this stuff isn't seen as something to throw into a fjc is unbeknown to me, and maybe you do in yours, and thats great, i never was so lucky to get all that covered so early. Anyway thats something else.

I don't actually have any instructors now to ask, although i'm sure i could get 3 different answers from the one's i do know at the dz. I'm also reluctant to ask people there because some of the experienced guys/instrcutors still tell me to wait until the previous group is at 45 degrees for exit separation, when i ask them what the uppers are like. The reason i post here is because i can get the insight from a greater number of extremely insightful and knowledgeable people who i have known of for longer than i have any instructors at my dz and whose opinion i know i can trust. As for Parachutist, i rarely see that as i'm in the UK. Regardless, it's the opinion of people on here i wanted, which is why i asked maybe mod's or very experienced could help out. The best answer is avoid the situation as you said, but how many people (me included) might forget to do that and then want a plan B?

Edited to add - i'm not having a go, i just want you to understand that us newbies want to learn as much as we can, even if the question might seem stupid or hypothetical to you more experienced guys. Thanks

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

Quote

thanks Derek, i didn't know to pull down on the other toggle rather than let up the one thats caused you to dive - i'm going to practice that up high next time.

while you're up there, practice your flat turns. I have practiced flat turns so much that it is my first reaction when I think i'm low and need to turn. Even if I may be fine without a flat turn, I still use them if there is even the smallest doubt in my mind that i'll not be level without one. Flat turns flat turns flat turns, use them often and they will (hopefully) become instinct. Also, land crosswind on a not so windy day. Just so that you realize that it isn't so bad and it can be done safely. Of course be ready to plf if you need to.

Angela.

[Chrisky 0]

The trouble with your point is, that imho it is highly unlikely someone will panic in one instant (which he should be prepared for) and in the very next instant, in a even more dramatic situation, be calm enough to think of some other advice he got, just in the very rare case of that situation?

Not humanly possible!
The referred two-out is a completely different thing, as it leaves more time unless you are in a downplane rightaway and you usually are a bit higher up, leaving precious time to think an react.

So, i think what you are asking for is _purely_ hypothetical imo. Nobody will panic in a situation they should avoid, only to be calm in the blink of an eye and save themselves.
When they panic and turn low, their next thought is "Ouch" or "(unconscious)".
Better advise them to think for 0.1 seconds before doing _anything_ in terms of low turns.

And, if you are told to always be prepared, you don't panic, as you are prepared, right?

Just mho.

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[Newbie 0]

thanks Bill, some sound advice as ever.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Chrisky 0]

The reason for people to probably keep it out of a fjc might be that a low turn using a student canopy will still be a somewhat flat turn. So if you overkill people with info, they might think of a turn they took as a "low turn" and try an emergency recovery, probably stalling their main and crashing harder than "normally" recovering from their turn and flaring normally.

That is what i could think of as a possible reason not to cover that on a fjc. As to covering emergency recoveries, if you panic one moment leaving you with little or no reaction time, it's unlikely (imho impossible) not to keep up the panic and emergency recover. (See my other post)

My two cents.

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[Newbie 0]

yeah i know the 2 out thing is different and whatnot, but muscle memory from practice might help, because then it's happening before you think about it, at least i hope it would, i guess that's what all training is for, to react without having to think?

I like to think this is hypothetical and i won't be in the situtation, but if i am then i would have done some hardcore thnking before hand so that i hope i might react instinctively if it happens. Some people in the thread have made insightful comments and have given me a lot of food for thought.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Newbie 0]

what i find boggling is i put that note in about "not wanting to know this so i can recover from a swoop gone wrong" because i felt if i didn't i'd get burnt from people saying "stop posting things giving people ideas on how to recover from swoops when they shouldn't be doing them in the first place!".You really can't win sometimes

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts