borg2050 0 #26 November 15, 2005 Quote I also think that those who are new to the sport and haven't yet become informed are most often better off with an RSL then without. Makes sense to me, especially if you don't know how you will perform during a mal. Quote but the design of the skyhook is such that I believe it can handle a truly violent malfunction better than any human or traditional RSL ever could, and that tips my personal benefit/risk scale in favor of it. I think I saw a short article on that in Parachutist but had not bothered to check it out before. As I am reading the testimonials, it is looking better and better. I don't know if anyone is using one (or planning to use one) at my home DZ, but I'll be sure to ask around. QuoteUnfortunately, none of the ones on final were anywhere near as high as 1,000 ft. All that I saw were below 500. Some people chose to cut away, others did not... all resulted in either a fatality or serious injury. Of those who cut away, none would have been helped by an RSL, although some may have been by the faster-acting skyhook. I think I've just made up my mind from that last statement. Thanks for the advice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #27 November 15, 2005 I meant to include this with my last post: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=18Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Icon134 0 #28 November 15, 2005 QuoteI believe each person should make an informed decsion. I also think that those who are new to the sport and haven't yet become informed are most often better off with an RSL then without.v This is my logic as well...Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 104 #29 November 15, 2005 QuoteI think I've just made up my mind from that last statement. Don't keep us in suspence. What did you decide? Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
borg2050 0 #30 November 15, 2005 The RSL just isn't for me. I worry too much about entanglements up high and the low collisions. Because the RSL wouldn't help me (the way I want it to) in those situations, then I'm better off without it. Perhaps I could use the skyhook, but I need to read more about it. Does anyone have a pro/con list about the skyhook? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #31 November 15, 2005 Quote The RSL just isn't for me. I worry too much about entanglements up high and the low collisions. While it certainly is your choice, I think you're displaying incredibly poor judgement. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #32 November 15, 2005 QuoteThe RSL just isn't for me. I worry too much about entanglements up high Why do you worry? If you do a little research on these forums you'll find a lot of discussion about the pros and cons of RSLs. You'll also find that no matter which side of the argument most people are on they almost universally agree that less experienced jumpers should wear them until they've had at least one cutaway. A lot of highly experienced jumpers and instructors seem to agree that the RSL has saved many more lives than it's been the cause of a problem. Please consider following their advice.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #33 November 15, 2005 QuoteThe RSL just isn't for me. I worry too much about entanglements up high and the low collisions. Because the RSL wouldn't help me (the way I want it to) in those situations, then I'm better off without it. Quote Now that I have over 30 jumps I have been thinking that parachutes just aren’t for me, they malfunction and cost way too much money - I have pretty strong legs so landings shouldent be a problem, skydiving will be much more affordable and I wont have to pack anymore... I am better off without them... Sounds like an unfair comparison but is it?Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mattjw916 2 #34 November 15, 2005 While I'm not a big fan of std RSLs, I think your reasons for not using one are flawed and should be re-examined, especially at your experience level. "Back in the day" when I had 30-ish jumps I was still renting gear that sometimes did and sometimes didn't have an RSL. I chose to disconnect it always since in the thick of things I may have forgot whether the rig I was wearing did or did not have one. Also, a friend of mine (also an AFF-I) suggested it. A few hundred or so jumps later, I still don't use one for several reasons (very good ones that don't apply to you, are beyond the scope of this thread, and have been discussed to death elsewhere) and don't want to sometimes use one and sometimes not. For students and new jumpers that don't do CRW, fly camera, etc it is probably safer to have one than not. Besides, the best way to survive a low collision is not to have one in the first place. Target fixation kills more skydivers than RSLs I'd wager.NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #35 November 15, 2005 QuoteWhile I'm not a big fan of std RSLs, I think your reasons for not using one are flawed and should be re-examined, especially at your experience level. "Back in the day" when I had 30-ish jumps I was still renting gear that sometimes did and sometimes didn't have an RSL. I chose to disconnect it always since in the thick of things I may have forgot whether the rig I was wearing did or did not have one. Also, a friend of mine (also an AFF-I) suggested it. A few hundred or so jumps later, I still don't use one for several reasons (very good ones that don't apply to you, are beyond the scope of this thread, and have been discussed to death elsewhere) and don't want to sometimes use one and sometimes not. For students and new jumpers that don't do CRW, fly camera, etc it is probably safer to have one than not. Besides, the best way to survive a low collision is not to have one in the first place. Target fixation kills more skydivers than RSLs I'd wager. Good posting, my opinion of the advice you got concerning disconnecting the RSL when you were renting notwithstanding - I got similar advice when I was a beginner from an AFFI, and now that I have a few thousands jumps I may not still be a “beginner” but still am and always will be a “student”. The comment you made “For students and new jumpers that don't do CRW, fly camera, etc it is probably safer to have one than not” is right on target other than the word “probably”, it is what it is and looking back at incident reports over the years RSL devices might have made a difference for a lot of people. This month’s parachutist has a good article on RSL, not that I agree with every word in it but a good article nonetheless and gives skydivers good information to think about. Bottom line is we are skydivers and fortunate enough to live in a reasonably free society with the aspect of our lives concerning RSLs up to the discretion of the individual skydiver. Curious if anyone out there knows how many fatalities in the past 10 years could have been prevented with an RSL and how many were caused because the jumper was using one? I cant think of an incident that concluded that the “Cause of death was due to and RSL”…Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scrumpot 1 #36 November 15, 2005 QuoteI cant think of an incident that concluded that the “Cause of death was due to and RSL”… There are several, as this has been discussed and in fact "researched" before. I am too lazy to do a search, but I know that "Ron" has actually done at least one post (about 1, maybe 2 yrs ago now) IIRC, that listed several that indeed did conclude and say (nearly exactly) that. ...FWIW.coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #37 November 15, 2005 well, to be most accurate, the incidents Ron posted often said that the RSL may have been a major factor. Few if any used the words 'cause of death due to an RSL.' Some were preliminary conclusions, with no followup. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scrumpot 1 #38 November 15, 2005 I'm not so sure, but again my recollection might be "fuzzy" If you have the time/ability to do the search and find the post I am looking for, then please feel free! Have at it and put a link to it here. Maybe later when I'm at home I can actually do it too. Just seems to me (again just simply as I recall) that there were at least a few that did say specifically, incident CAUSED by the RSL. But you may be right. I may be wrong. -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #39 November 15, 2005 Ron has come up with handful of cases over the last 20 years where one may have contributed. The flipside is that I can show 3 examples no-pull/low-pull fatalities this year where an RSL almost certainly would have worked properly, and saved a life. Especially with newer jumpers, the advantages of RSL's greatly exceed their risks. Quite frankly, I'm at a loss to understand how anyone can come to a differing conclusion. But as I said earlier, it is up to the individual jumper. If that's what they want, I won't stop them. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #40 November 15, 2005 Quote The RSL just isn't for me. I worry too much about entanglements up high and the low collisions. Because the RSL wouldn't help me (the way I want it to) in those situations, then I'm better off without it. Perhaps I could use the skyhook, but I need to read more about it. Does anyone have a pro/con list about the skyhook? Yeah, That's it! You are worrying too much. Be simple and positive: avoid entanglements and low collisions. Practice EM procedures including RSL disconnecting too! Communicate with other in the same load about their planes and landing patters! Fly a simple and predictable pattern! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 0 #41 November 15, 2005 QuoteWhile it certainly is your choice, I think you're displaying incredibly poor judgement. .................. Especially with newer jumpers, the advantages of RSL's greatly exceed their risks. Quite frankly, I'm at a loss to understand how anyone can come to a differing conclusion. My thoughts exactly. To Borg2050: Making a decision based on complete information, combined with experience, is one thing. But you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding as to the most basic things of an RSL, and then you're basing your decision on that. No offense, but your process of analysis and decision-making is scary. You need to get yourself some quality education on this subject, preferably making sure an INSTRUCTOR evaluates your level of understanding, and keep an open mind until then. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #42 November 15, 2005 QuoteWhile it certainly is your choice, you're displaying incredibly poor judgement. The advantages of RSL's greatly exceed their risks. Quite frankly, I'm at a loss to understand how anyone can come to a differing conclusion. To Borg2050-You need to get yourself some quality education on this subject, preferably making sure an INSTRUCTOR evaluates your level of understanding, and keep an open mind until then. While it certainly is your choice, you're displaying incredibly poor judgement. The advantages of RSL's greatly exceed their risks. Quite frankly, I'm at a loss to understand how anyone can come to a differing conclusion. The advantages of RSL's greatly exceed their risks. The advantages of RSL's greatly exceed their risks. The advantages of RSL's greatly exceed their risks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #43 November 15, 2005 QuoteThe advantages of RSL's greatly exceed their risks. Quite frankly, I'm at a loss to understand how anyone can come to a differing conclusion. I’ll try and explain how I came to a different conclusion. The vast majority of malfunctions/cutaways/reserve deployments either are or can be done without an RSL being needed to deploy the reserve for the jumper. Instability is a cause of malfunctions. Reserves are not designed to be deployed while unstable, they have the highest chance of opening when the jumper is stable. The RSL can cause the reserve to be deployed while the jumper is unstable. The RSL does not know the altitude of the jumper or if they want the reserve to deploy immediately after a cutaway or not. In other words, they will activate the reserve following a cutaway from a deployed main canopy regardless if the jumper wants it to happen or if it the right thing to do or not. Jumpers can either knowingly or unknowingly rely on them. As the recent incident where the jumper cutaway from a total and was waiting for the RSL to activate the reserve only to be saved by her AAD demonstrates. I believe this has happened before and will happen again. There have been several fatalities that would not have happened if they had not had an RSL. For the cutaways where the RSL is a positive, more often than not, the situation could have been avoided by proper training, gear choices, and maintaining altitude awareness during the skydive. So, for the vast majority of RSL reserve deployments following a cutaway, the RSL makes the situation worse, not better because the jumper didn’t need it and the jumper did not have the option of getting stable. The above does not apply to the Skyhook. Here is a very smart person’s thoughts about the RSL: The following also does not apply to the Skyhook. "Facts about the "Reserve Staticline Lanyard" Posted Thursday, October 15, 1998 By Relative Workshop Facts about the "Reserve Staticline Lanyard"Lately there has been a big push towards the use of the reserve staticline lanyard (RSL) for experienced jumpers. Most proponents of the RSL have only been dwelling on the positive aspects of the RSL without considering the negative consequences. The Relative Workshop wants to educate each jumper regarding the pros and cons of the RSL system so you will be able to make an informed decision about this popular, yet controversial modification. For those of you unfamiliar with the RSL system, a short description is in order. The RSL is a simple lanyard connecting one or both of the main canopy risers to the reserve ripcord. In the event of a main canopy malfunction, and following a successful breakaway, the reserve ripcord is pulled as the main risers depart with the released main canopy. In essence, the RSL indirectly connects the breakaway handle to the reserve ripcord handle. Unfortunately, this simple lanyard can easily complicate a routine emergency for those who are more than capable of handling the problem manually. The RSL has gained much of its notoriety through its use on student equipment. The RSL is ideal for students because the probability is high that a student might breakaway from a malfunction lower than the recommended altitude, and delay longer than necessary before deploying the reserve. Having the reserve deploy in a unstable body position, while far from ideal, is preferential to not having the reserve deploy at all. Waiting for the AAD to fire if the breakaway is extremely low is a chancy situation at best. For these reasons, the RSL is quite compatible for student gear and most instructors would probably agree! RSL's work great on tandem systems as well. The tandem instructor really has his hands filled during a malfunction so the speedy deployment of the reserve is a big advantage. Stability after a breakaway is generally not a problem as the tandem pair have inherent stability qualities due to the positioning of the passenger and tandem master. If the tandem master has properly prepared the passenger's body position, a tandem breakaway has a greater potential for instant stability than a solo breakaway. Both student and tandem jumps are carried out at higher altitudes and rarely involve other jumpers in the same airspace, minimizing the chance of canopy entanglements which can complicate matters severely. RSL's and the experienced jumper - Pros vs. Cons Remember, the RSL does one thing and one thing only: It will activate (providing it does not physically fail) the reserve container following a main canopy breakaway. That's it! Now lets talk about the disadvantages of the RSL. 1) Most jumpers don't realize that utilizing a RSL correctly requires changing their emergency procedures. Why? The reason is simple: Most RSL systems offer the ability to disconnect it from the riser. If it's disconnectable, then there will be situations that may require a disconnection before proceeding with the breakaway. An obvious one that comes to mind is a canopy entanglement with another jumper. If one or both jumpers have an RSL and they mindlessly breakaway without considering the consequences, they might very well find themselves entangled again, possibly for the last time! Canopy entanglements are happening more frequently now than ever before due to several reasons: A) More inexperienced jumpers engaging in larger RW formations. B) The recent popularity of ultra-fast zero porosity canopies. The result is: Skies crowded with more inexperienced jumpers flying faster canopies. Emergency procedures for systems fitted with RSLs would change in the following manner: Before the breakaway, you must ask yourself (considering your present malfunction) if an immediate reserve deployment will be in your own best interest. If not, the RSL must be released before proceeding with the breakaway. NOTE: Anytime the RSL remains active during a breakaway, the jumper should automatically plan on pulling the reserve handle anyway just in case the RSL connection fails to activate the reserve container for whatever reason. This lack of awareness regarding the need to back up the reserve pull manually is an increasing and disturbing trend among some of today's jumpers. 2) The average jumper will take more than several seconds to analyze and determine if the RSL disconnection is necessary. This can obviously consume valuable time. No doubt the average jumper would be better off handling the emergency manually by pulling both handles, which is not a difficult task. 3) Lets examine the cause of malfunctions in the first place. The biggest culprits are improper packing and rigging, or bad body position during deployment. (Bad body position can be defined as shoulders not perpendicular to the relative wind.) s almost impossible to be stable within the first second and a half following a breakaway from a malfunctioning high performance main canopy. Therefore, the typical RSL user is most likely unstable during the reserve deployment. Instability causes malfunctions and allowing the RSL to open the reserve container for you will increase the chance that the reserve canopy will malfunction as well. One might argue that this would be a rare occurrence, but why would an experienced jumper take the chance? Some would consider this an unacceptable risk! 4) CRW enthusiasts, for the obvious reasons mentioned in point 1, do not want or need a RSL. For those that have one, it should be disconnected prior to boarding the aircraft on a planned CRW jump. Freefall videographers should never jump with an active RSL systemThe last thing a camera-person needs is the reserve deploying while they're unstable. Just recently in France a fatality occurred when a RSL-activated reserve canopy entangled with the jumpers helmet-mounted camera equipment. 6) The RSL will not work during a total malfunction of the main container, and do not assume that it can take the place of a functioning, properly calibrated automatic activation device. An RSL is not an AAD. Summation The RSL system was developed over 25 years ago and found its proper place on student equipment. Due to the fact the skydiving community encounters several deaths each year attributed to the "no-reserve-pull-following-a-breakaway scenario," we have many individuals who feel the RSL is the answer for the experienced jumper. Our belief is quite simple: If every jumper had a RSL, then the amount of RSL related deaths each year would be many more than we now encounter with no-pull situations. Naturally we have tremendous concern whenever someone wants to take a simple, 3-handle system and turn it into some complicated apparatus in an attempt to make up for the inadequacies of the poorly trained or ill-prepared jumper. We believe if you stick to the basics, constantly rehearse your emergency procedures, and assume you'll have a malfunction on every jump - you'll be much better off. Remember: The RSL is not a safety device for experienced jumpers because it takes more time to operate it correctly than to pull the breakaway and reserve handles manually. Now that you have been presented with the all the facts, we hope you'll make the right decision for yourself regarding the RSL. If you would like to have a consultation on your personal skydiving equipment needs, please call Relative Workshop at anytime during the hours of 8am - 6pm EST. We have a highly experienced staff of riggers and instructors who are anxiously awaiting to assist you. If we don't have the answers to your questions, we probably know who does! Remember, we're here to help you make the right decisions concerning your skydiving equipment and its proper use." Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #44 November 15, 2005 Quote"Facts about the "Reserve Staticline Lanyard" Posted Thursday, October 15, 1998 By Relative Workshop They may have posted that 7 years ago, but Mr. Booth has made very contrary postings *this* year in support of RSLs, and not exclusively for his new Skyhook design. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #45 November 15, 2005 QuoteThey may have posted that 7 years ago, but Mr. Booth has made very contrary postings *this* year in support of RSLs, and not exclusively for his new Skyhook design. From: May 12, 2004, 11:26 AM " Please note that the above letter about RSL's from the Relative Workshop was prior to the introduction of the Skyhook RSL. The Skyhook was designed to remove most, if not all of the "problems" associated with conventional RSL's. The Colins' Lanyard solves the problem of the RSL riser releasing first, and the Skyhook solves the pilot chute entrapment problem and the unstable deployment problem. The Relative Workshop now recommends Skyhook RSL's to all customers, regardless of experience level. Jumpers who do a lot of CReW might be the only exception. However, no device is perfect, and everyone's best course of action is not to get so low that you need an RSL in the first place. Just remember...an RSL is sort of like a gun. If you really need it, but don't have it, you'll never need it again. " Was there something else you were referring to? I posted that more in response to "The advantages of RSL's greatly exceed their risks. Quite frankly, I'm at a loss to understand how anyone can come to a differing conclusion. " Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #46 November 16, 2005 I couldn't find Ron's posting, but I did find the August thread where Derek did, perhaps a reposting of the same text. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1790967;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25; "RSL's - Again" Post 111 has ~5 incidents over the past decade where the RSL may have been a factor. I believe these were culled from www.skydivingfatalities.info listings. Definitely worth reading. Also worth noting that none of these were clear indictments against RSL's. You had gear issues like riser failures and a 3 ring release problem, a camera flier, and more than a couple that were preliminary investigations. Lots of smoke, but smoking guns? On one, Ron ignored the part that said: "A second report from someone involved with the investigation reports that the RSL had nothing to do with it; I await further details." and he concluded with "Here's a 1:1 tht killed a guy." (post 137) Billbooth was active in this one as well, commenting on both the skyhook and RSLs in general. Obviously he believes very strongly in his newest innovation. Post 140, however: "First, if you say an RSL "can't be relied on" (by which I assume you mean it might accidentally disconnect and not do its job), then you must also say that parachutes can't be relied on. Parachutes fail to open in about 1 in 1,000 deployments. RSL's are more reliable than that. Also, somewhere around 1 in 1,000 members of USPA die every year skydiving. Again, RSL's are more reliable than that. Simply put, RSL's are much more reliable than either the people who use them, or the parachutes they jump. Secondly, I am going to stop calling the Skyhook an RSL. All of the oft quoted problems RSL's have caused would NOT have been caused by the Skyhook. That's the whole point of the design. " Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 0 #47 November 16, 2005 QuoteFor the cutaways where the RSL is a positive, more often than not, the situation could have been avoided by proper training, gear choices, and maintaining altitude awareness during the skydive. To my view, one big benefit of an RSL is where a chop occurs below 1,000 ft, where "accelerating" the process beyond human reaction time just might make the difference between surviving or not. Yes, I know that training and alti awareness - ideally - shouldn't allow that to happen in the first place, but sometimes it just does, even to the best jumper. We recently discussed (debated) that in this thread, where my argument was: QuoteWe all hope we never brain fart and fight a spinner down to 500' before chopping, or do something foolish to induce spinning line twists at 500', or have a mal and for whatever reason have such a hard pull on our cutaway handle we can’t pop it until 500'. But if we do, an RSL may make the difference between whether we skydive The Farm, or buy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #48 November 16, 2005 QuoteWe all hope we never brain fart and fight a spinner down to 500' before chopping, or do something foolish to induce spinning line twists at 500', or have a mal and for whatever reason have such a hard pull on our cutaway handle we can’t pop it until 500'. But if we do, an RSL may make the difference between whether we skydive The Farm, or buy it.*** You would have to be in one of those situations and then also fail to pull the reserve handle immediately after a cutaway. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites goose491 0 #49 November 16, 2005 <> Yes. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 0 #50 November 16, 2005 QuoteQuoteWe all hope we never brain fart and fight a spinner down to 500' before chopping, or do something foolish to induce spinning line twists at 500', or have a mal and for whatever reason have such a hard pull on our cutaway handle we can’t pop it until 500'. But if we do, an RSL may make the difference between whether we skydive The Farm, or buy it.*** You would have to be in one of those situations and then also fail to pull the reserve handle immediately after a cutaway. I agree. That low, a "human factor" delay of about 1 & 1/2 seconds could make the difference between making or not - which I think can happen to anyone, no matter how well-experienced, well-trained or well-geared. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 2 of 9 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
mattjw916 2 #34 November 15, 2005 While I'm not a big fan of std RSLs, I think your reasons for not using one are flawed and should be re-examined, especially at your experience level. "Back in the day" when I had 30-ish jumps I was still renting gear that sometimes did and sometimes didn't have an RSL. I chose to disconnect it always since in the thick of things I may have forgot whether the rig I was wearing did or did not have one. Also, a friend of mine (also an AFF-I) suggested it. A few hundred or so jumps later, I still don't use one for several reasons (very good ones that don't apply to you, are beyond the scope of this thread, and have been discussed to death elsewhere) and don't want to sometimes use one and sometimes not. For students and new jumpers that don't do CRW, fly camera, etc it is probably safer to have one than not. Besides, the best way to survive a low collision is not to have one in the first place. Target fixation kills more skydivers than RSLs I'd wager.NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #35 November 15, 2005 QuoteWhile I'm not a big fan of std RSLs, I think your reasons for not using one are flawed and should be re-examined, especially at your experience level. "Back in the day" when I had 30-ish jumps I was still renting gear that sometimes did and sometimes didn't have an RSL. I chose to disconnect it always since in the thick of things I may have forgot whether the rig I was wearing did or did not have one. Also, a friend of mine (also an AFF-I) suggested it. A few hundred or so jumps later, I still don't use one for several reasons (very good ones that don't apply to you, are beyond the scope of this thread, and have been discussed to death elsewhere) and don't want to sometimes use one and sometimes not. For students and new jumpers that don't do CRW, fly camera, etc it is probably safer to have one than not. Besides, the best way to survive a low collision is not to have one in the first place. Target fixation kills more skydivers than RSLs I'd wager. Good posting, my opinion of the advice you got concerning disconnecting the RSL when you were renting notwithstanding - I got similar advice when I was a beginner from an AFFI, and now that I have a few thousands jumps I may not still be a “beginner” but still am and always will be a “student”. The comment you made “For students and new jumpers that don't do CRW, fly camera, etc it is probably safer to have one than not” is right on target other than the word “probably”, it is what it is and looking back at incident reports over the years RSL devices might have made a difference for a lot of people. This month’s parachutist has a good article on RSL, not that I agree with every word in it but a good article nonetheless and gives skydivers good information to think about. Bottom line is we are skydivers and fortunate enough to live in a reasonably free society with the aspect of our lives concerning RSLs up to the discretion of the individual skydiver. Curious if anyone out there knows how many fatalities in the past 10 years could have been prevented with an RSL and how many were caused because the jumper was using one? I cant think of an incident that concluded that the “Cause of death was due to and RSL”…Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #36 November 15, 2005 QuoteI cant think of an incident that concluded that the “Cause of death was due to and RSL”… There are several, as this has been discussed and in fact "researched" before. I am too lazy to do a search, but I know that "Ron" has actually done at least one post (about 1, maybe 2 yrs ago now) IIRC, that listed several that indeed did conclude and say (nearly exactly) that. ...FWIW.coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #37 November 15, 2005 well, to be most accurate, the incidents Ron posted often said that the RSL may have been a major factor. Few if any used the words 'cause of death due to an RSL.' Some were preliminary conclusions, with no followup. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #38 November 15, 2005 I'm not so sure, but again my recollection might be "fuzzy" If you have the time/ability to do the search and find the post I am looking for, then please feel free! Have at it and put a link to it here. Maybe later when I'm at home I can actually do it too. Just seems to me (again just simply as I recall) that there were at least a few that did say specifically, incident CAUSED by the RSL. But you may be right. I may be wrong. -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #39 November 15, 2005 Ron has come up with handful of cases over the last 20 years where one may have contributed. The flipside is that I can show 3 examples no-pull/low-pull fatalities this year where an RSL almost certainly would have worked properly, and saved a life. Especially with newer jumpers, the advantages of RSL's greatly exceed their risks. Quite frankly, I'm at a loss to understand how anyone can come to a differing conclusion. But as I said earlier, it is up to the individual jumper. If that's what they want, I won't stop them. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #40 November 15, 2005 Quote The RSL just isn't for me. I worry too much about entanglements up high and the low collisions. Because the RSL wouldn't help me (the way I want it to) in those situations, then I'm better off without it. Perhaps I could use the skyhook, but I need to read more about it. Does anyone have a pro/con list about the skyhook? Yeah, That's it! You are worrying too much. Be simple and positive: avoid entanglements and low collisions. Practice EM procedures including RSL disconnecting too! Communicate with other in the same load about their planes and landing patters! Fly a simple and predictable pattern! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #41 November 15, 2005 QuoteWhile it certainly is your choice, I think you're displaying incredibly poor judgement. .................. Especially with newer jumpers, the advantages of RSL's greatly exceed their risks. Quite frankly, I'm at a loss to understand how anyone can come to a differing conclusion. My thoughts exactly. To Borg2050: Making a decision based on complete information, combined with experience, is one thing. But you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding as to the most basic things of an RSL, and then you're basing your decision on that. No offense, but your process of analysis and decision-making is scary. You need to get yourself some quality education on this subject, preferably making sure an INSTRUCTOR evaluates your level of understanding, and keep an open mind until then. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #42 November 15, 2005 QuoteWhile it certainly is your choice, you're displaying incredibly poor judgement. The advantages of RSL's greatly exceed their risks. Quite frankly, I'm at a loss to understand how anyone can come to a differing conclusion. To Borg2050-You need to get yourself some quality education on this subject, preferably making sure an INSTRUCTOR evaluates your level of understanding, and keep an open mind until then. While it certainly is your choice, you're displaying incredibly poor judgement. The advantages of RSL's greatly exceed their risks. Quite frankly, I'm at a loss to understand how anyone can come to a differing conclusion. The advantages of RSL's greatly exceed their risks. The advantages of RSL's greatly exceed their risks. The advantages of RSL's greatly exceed their risks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #43 November 15, 2005 QuoteThe advantages of RSL's greatly exceed their risks. Quite frankly, I'm at a loss to understand how anyone can come to a differing conclusion. I’ll try and explain how I came to a different conclusion. The vast majority of malfunctions/cutaways/reserve deployments either are or can be done without an RSL being needed to deploy the reserve for the jumper. Instability is a cause of malfunctions. Reserves are not designed to be deployed while unstable, they have the highest chance of opening when the jumper is stable. The RSL can cause the reserve to be deployed while the jumper is unstable. The RSL does not know the altitude of the jumper or if they want the reserve to deploy immediately after a cutaway or not. In other words, they will activate the reserve following a cutaway from a deployed main canopy regardless if the jumper wants it to happen or if it the right thing to do or not. Jumpers can either knowingly or unknowingly rely on them. As the recent incident where the jumper cutaway from a total and was waiting for the RSL to activate the reserve only to be saved by her AAD demonstrates. I believe this has happened before and will happen again. There have been several fatalities that would not have happened if they had not had an RSL. For the cutaways where the RSL is a positive, more often than not, the situation could have been avoided by proper training, gear choices, and maintaining altitude awareness during the skydive. So, for the vast majority of RSL reserve deployments following a cutaway, the RSL makes the situation worse, not better because the jumper didn’t need it and the jumper did not have the option of getting stable. The above does not apply to the Skyhook. Here is a very smart person’s thoughts about the RSL: The following also does not apply to the Skyhook. "Facts about the "Reserve Staticline Lanyard" Posted Thursday, October 15, 1998 By Relative Workshop Facts about the "Reserve Staticline Lanyard"Lately there has been a big push towards the use of the reserve staticline lanyard (RSL) for experienced jumpers. Most proponents of the RSL have only been dwelling on the positive aspects of the RSL without considering the negative consequences. The Relative Workshop wants to educate each jumper regarding the pros and cons of the RSL system so you will be able to make an informed decision about this popular, yet controversial modification. For those of you unfamiliar with the RSL system, a short description is in order. The RSL is a simple lanyard connecting one or both of the main canopy risers to the reserve ripcord. In the event of a main canopy malfunction, and following a successful breakaway, the reserve ripcord is pulled as the main risers depart with the released main canopy. In essence, the RSL indirectly connects the breakaway handle to the reserve ripcord handle. Unfortunately, this simple lanyard can easily complicate a routine emergency for those who are more than capable of handling the problem manually. The RSL has gained much of its notoriety through its use on student equipment. The RSL is ideal for students because the probability is high that a student might breakaway from a malfunction lower than the recommended altitude, and delay longer than necessary before deploying the reserve. Having the reserve deploy in a unstable body position, while far from ideal, is preferential to not having the reserve deploy at all. Waiting for the AAD to fire if the breakaway is extremely low is a chancy situation at best. For these reasons, the RSL is quite compatible for student gear and most instructors would probably agree! RSL's work great on tandem systems as well. The tandem instructor really has his hands filled during a malfunction so the speedy deployment of the reserve is a big advantage. Stability after a breakaway is generally not a problem as the tandem pair have inherent stability qualities due to the positioning of the passenger and tandem master. If the tandem master has properly prepared the passenger's body position, a tandem breakaway has a greater potential for instant stability than a solo breakaway. Both student and tandem jumps are carried out at higher altitudes and rarely involve other jumpers in the same airspace, minimizing the chance of canopy entanglements which can complicate matters severely. RSL's and the experienced jumper - Pros vs. Cons Remember, the RSL does one thing and one thing only: It will activate (providing it does not physically fail) the reserve container following a main canopy breakaway. That's it! Now lets talk about the disadvantages of the RSL. 1) Most jumpers don't realize that utilizing a RSL correctly requires changing their emergency procedures. Why? The reason is simple: Most RSL systems offer the ability to disconnect it from the riser. If it's disconnectable, then there will be situations that may require a disconnection before proceeding with the breakaway. An obvious one that comes to mind is a canopy entanglement with another jumper. If one or both jumpers have an RSL and they mindlessly breakaway without considering the consequences, they might very well find themselves entangled again, possibly for the last time! Canopy entanglements are happening more frequently now than ever before due to several reasons: A) More inexperienced jumpers engaging in larger RW formations. B) The recent popularity of ultra-fast zero porosity canopies. The result is: Skies crowded with more inexperienced jumpers flying faster canopies. Emergency procedures for systems fitted with RSLs would change in the following manner: Before the breakaway, you must ask yourself (considering your present malfunction) if an immediate reserve deployment will be in your own best interest. If not, the RSL must be released before proceeding with the breakaway. NOTE: Anytime the RSL remains active during a breakaway, the jumper should automatically plan on pulling the reserve handle anyway just in case the RSL connection fails to activate the reserve container for whatever reason. This lack of awareness regarding the need to back up the reserve pull manually is an increasing and disturbing trend among some of today's jumpers. 2) The average jumper will take more than several seconds to analyze and determine if the RSL disconnection is necessary. This can obviously consume valuable time. No doubt the average jumper would be better off handling the emergency manually by pulling both handles, which is not a difficult task. 3) Lets examine the cause of malfunctions in the first place. The biggest culprits are improper packing and rigging, or bad body position during deployment. (Bad body position can be defined as shoulders not perpendicular to the relative wind.) s almost impossible to be stable within the first second and a half following a breakaway from a malfunctioning high performance main canopy. Therefore, the typical RSL user is most likely unstable during the reserve deployment. Instability causes malfunctions and allowing the RSL to open the reserve container for you will increase the chance that the reserve canopy will malfunction as well. One might argue that this would be a rare occurrence, but why would an experienced jumper take the chance? Some would consider this an unacceptable risk! 4) CRW enthusiasts, for the obvious reasons mentioned in point 1, do not want or need a RSL. For those that have one, it should be disconnected prior to boarding the aircraft on a planned CRW jump. Freefall videographers should never jump with an active RSL systemThe last thing a camera-person needs is the reserve deploying while they're unstable. Just recently in France a fatality occurred when a RSL-activated reserve canopy entangled with the jumpers helmet-mounted camera equipment. 6) The RSL will not work during a total malfunction of the main container, and do not assume that it can take the place of a functioning, properly calibrated automatic activation device. An RSL is not an AAD. Summation The RSL system was developed over 25 years ago and found its proper place on student equipment. Due to the fact the skydiving community encounters several deaths each year attributed to the "no-reserve-pull-following-a-breakaway scenario," we have many individuals who feel the RSL is the answer for the experienced jumper. Our belief is quite simple: If every jumper had a RSL, then the amount of RSL related deaths each year would be many more than we now encounter with no-pull situations. Naturally we have tremendous concern whenever someone wants to take a simple, 3-handle system and turn it into some complicated apparatus in an attempt to make up for the inadequacies of the poorly trained or ill-prepared jumper. We believe if you stick to the basics, constantly rehearse your emergency procedures, and assume you'll have a malfunction on every jump - you'll be much better off. Remember: The RSL is not a safety device for experienced jumpers because it takes more time to operate it correctly than to pull the breakaway and reserve handles manually. Now that you have been presented with the all the facts, we hope you'll make the right decision for yourself regarding the RSL. If you would like to have a consultation on your personal skydiving equipment needs, please call Relative Workshop at anytime during the hours of 8am - 6pm EST. We have a highly experienced staff of riggers and instructors who are anxiously awaiting to assist you. If we don't have the answers to your questions, we probably know who does! Remember, we're here to help you make the right decisions concerning your skydiving equipment and its proper use." Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #44 November 15, 2005 Quote"Facts about the "Reserve Staticline Lanyard" Posted Thursday, October 15, 1998 By Relative Workshop They may have posted that 7 years ago, but Mr. Booth has made very contrary postings *this* year in support of RSLs, and not exclusively for his new Skyhook design. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #45 November 15, 2005 QuoteThey may have posted that 7 years ago, but Mr. Booth has made very contrary postings *this* year in support of RSLs, and not exclusively for his new Skyhook design. From: May 12, 2004, 11:26 AM " Please note that the above letter about RSL's from the Relative Workshop was prior to the introduction of the Skyhook RSL. The Skyhook was designed to remove most, if not all of the "problems" associated with conventional RSL's. The Colins' Lanyard solves the problem of the RSL riser releasing first, and the Skyhook solves the pilot chute entrapment problem and the unstable deployment problem. The Relative Workshop now recommends Skyhook RSL's to all customers, regardless of experience level. Jumpers who do a lot of CReW might be the only exception. However, no device is perfect, and everyone's best course of action is not to get so low that you need an RSL in the first place. Just remember...an RSL is sort of like a gun. If you really need it, but don't have it, you'll never need it again. " Was there something else you were referring to? I posted that more in response to "The advantages of RSL's greatly exceed their risks. Quite frankly, I'm at a loss to understand how anyone can come to a differing conclusion. " Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #46 November 16, 2005 I couldn't find Ron's posting, but I did find the August thread where Derek did, perhaps a reposting of the same text. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1790967;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25; "RSL's - Again" Post 111 has ~5 incidents over the past decade where the RSL may have been a factor. I believe these were culled from www.skydivingfatalities.info listings. Definitely worth reading. Also worth noting that none of these were clear indictments against RSL's. You had gear issues like riser failures and a 3 ring release problem, a camera flier, and more than a couple that were preliminary investigations. Lots of smoke, but smoking guns? On one, Ron ignored the part that said: "A second report from someone involved with the investigation reports that the RSL had nothing to do with it; I await further details." and he concluded with "Here's a 1:1 tht killed a guy." (post 137) Billbooth was active in this one as well, commenting on both the skyhook and RSLs in general. Obviously he believes very strongly in his newest innovation. Post 140, however: "First, if you say an RSL "can't be relied on" (by which I assume you mean it might accidentally disconnect and not do its job), then you must also say that parachutes can't be relied on. Parachutes fail to open in about 1 in 1,000 deployments. RSL's are more reliable than that. Also, somewhere around 1 in 1,000 members of USPA die every year skydiving. Again, RSL's are more reliable than that. Simply put, RSL's are much more reliable than either the people who use them, or the parachutes they jump. Secondly, I am going to stop calling the Skyhook an RSL. All of the oft quoted problems RSL's have caused would NOT have been caused by the Skyhook. That's the whole point of the design. " Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #47 November 16, 2005 QuoteFor the cutaways where the RSL is a positive, more often than not, the situation could have been avoided by proper training, gear choices, and maintaining altitude awareness during the skydive. To my view, one big benefit of an RSL is where a chop occurs below 1,000 ft, where "accelerating" the process beyond human reaction time just might make the difference between surviving or not. Yes, I know that training and alti awareness - ideally - shouldn't allow that to happen in the first place, but sometimes it just does, even to the best jumper. We recently discussed (debated) that in this thread, where my argument was: QuoteWe all hope we never brain fart and fight a spinner down to 500' before chopping, or do something foolish to induce spinning line twists at 500', or have a mal and for whatever reason have such a hard pull on our cutaway handle we can’t pop it until 500'. But if we do, an RSL may make the difference between whether we skydive The Farm, or buy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #48 November 16, 2005 QuoteWe all hope we never brain fart and fight a spinner down to 500' before chopping, or do something foolish to induce spinning line twists at 500', or have a mal and for whatever reason have such a hard pull on our cutaway handle we can’t pop it until 500'. But if we do, an RSL may make the difference between whether we skydive The Farm, or buy it.*** You would have to be in one of those situations and then also fail to pull the reserve handle immediately after a cutaway. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #49 November 16, 2005 <> Yes. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #50 November 16, 2005 QuoteQuoteWe all hope we never brain fart and fight a spinner down to 500' before chopping, or do something foolish to induce spinning line twists at 500', or have a mal and for whatever reason have such a hard pull on our cutaway handle we can’t pop it until 500'. But if we do, an RSL may make the difference between whether we skydive The Farm, or buy it.*** You would have to be in one of those situations and then also fail to pull the reserve handle immediately after a cutaway. I agree. That low, a "human factor" delay of about 1 & 1/2 seconds could make the difference between making or not - which I think can happen to anyone, no matter how well-experienced, well-trained or well-geared. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
