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JohnRich

Bail out, or land with the plane?

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How about, "Ask the pilot"?



As much as I would really like to bail, I would ask the pilot first. I would hate to be the one to really throw off the CG and kill all my buddies on the plane.

j
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

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You're refrencing the recent Caravan engine out in MI, and you're misunderstanding what the DZO said. His problem was with the jumpers who left immediately, with no word from the pilot of any kind. There was never the suggestion that anyone land with the plane after an engine out at a safe jump altitude, just that the jumpers should wait hear from the pilot before exiting. In that case, the pilot did call for an exit, after gliding over the DZ at 9000' and giving them the light where they were expecting it.

Keep in mind that an engine out is a big problem, but if it happens at 10k and you're wearing a parachute, it's not that big of a problem. If the pilot pushes the nose over to maintian best-glide speed, and manages to seucre the engine, you as a jumper have at least 10 min before the plane gets so low that you don't want to jump. The descent rate at best glide with an engine out would be around 500 to 700fpm.

The idea is to tailor the jumpers response to match the situation. The one that you describe, like what happened in MI, calls for the jumpers to exitlower then they thought, and without a climb out and grips on exit. Nothing more, nothing less.

If there was a control problem with the plane and it was spinning out of control, that requires a different response, that being get out at all costs.

If the engine quit at 3k over rough terrain, that requires you to get tough and sit still for a minute. Give the pilot a chance to handle things, and if you're approaching 2k with no word form the cockpit, maybe to do just up and get out.

Nobody ever suggested landing with a stricken plane when the aircraft failure happens above a safe jump altitude. What they said was that you need to follow the procedure of waiting to hear from the pilot. In extenuating circumstacnes, like a departure from controlled flight, or when altitude is short, you may need to make up your own mind, but when altitude permits, and the pilot seems to be 'piloting', sit still and repsect the chain of command.

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It gets really interesting when you are over an open body of water, 6 up in a 206, offshore wind, and no boats in sight. Add 1 lifejacket aboard and going from 6 grand down to 2 grand before the pilot got it fired up again....

Maximum pucker factor, and major decision making.....


The plane flew like an anvil...
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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You're refrencing the recent Caravan engine out in MI...



Yes.

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...and you're misunderstanding what the DZO said.



No. I understood just fine.

I started with the actual Caravan situation, then changed the circumstances - that's why I labeled it hypothetical. Because I wanted to focus the debate on the aspect of pilot communication to the jumpers. I did that because a disturbing number of people seem to be willing to die in a crippled airplane, just because someone didn't tell them to jump. And this sport has seen a whole lot of crash landing carnage. Crash landing deaths often equal the number of actual skydiving deaths each year.

The point being that we should not always sit like sheep and do nothing, just because the pilot is silent. In extreme situations, we must make our own intelligent, rational choices to increase survival. We are not just bags of cargo.

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You're refrencing the recent Caravan engine out in MI...



Yes.

Quote

...and you're misunderstanding what the DZO said.



No. I understood just fine.

I started with the actual Caravan situation, then changed the circumstances - that's why I labeled it hypothetical. Because I wanted to focus the debate on the aspect of pilot communication to the jumpers. I did that because a disturbing number of people seem to be willing to die in a crippled airplane, just because someone didn't tell them to jump. And this sport has seen a whole lot of crash landing carnage. Crash landing deaths often equal the number of actual skydiving deaths each year.

The point being that we should not always sit like sheep and do nothing, just because the pilot is silent. In extreme situations, we must make our own intelligent, rational choices to increase survival. We are not just bags of cargo.




Funny, I got beat up the last time I suggested this.:D

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I think you are overeacting.

Considering the altitude and the circumstances of the incident. There was no need to panic and exit the plane quickly. I have been in a situation almost exactly like that one and unless the plane is going down quickly I didn't see any reason to not wait for instructions from the pilot and in that situation it's the right thing to do.

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if I had all the facts I would climb to the front of the plan, open the door and leave. Why land under a dead stick with 17 jumpers???

pilot in command? lots of pilots were in command until they died.

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I was in a L-10 once on jump-run when the left spinner quit, the pilot said everybody out NOW....



Was jumping in the Dolemites of southern Austria when the Cessna went real quiet. (There was a fuel vent problem) The pilot starts yelling "AUSFAHRT! in a panicky tone. The door swung open and the mountains were about 300 feet below. I gave him a 90 left and waited a bit to get back over the valley.

Listen and look.

jon

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I think you are overeacting. Considering the altitude and the circumstances of the incident. There was no need to panic and exit the plane quickly.



Once again, this thread is not about that actual incident. It's about a hypothetical situation. I don't understand why some people can't seem to separate the two...

The poll results certainly seem to indicate that the large majority of respondents agree with me, and therefore I'm not "overreacting".

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a disturbing number of people seem to be willing to die in a crippled airplane, just because someone didn't tell them to jump.



I think you're mistaking the omission of those jumpers plans if the altitude started to get scarce for their willingness to land in a crippled aricraft just because the pilot didn't say 'jump'. Nobody said they would ride it into the ground. They said that if time and altitude permitted, they would wait for the pilot's instructions before taking action.

Your hypothetical is pretty far fetched, that the pilot would glide the plane for over 10 minutes without giving one thought to the jumpers behind him, or even responding to their questions about what to do, but if that did happen, as the poll supports, people would do what needed to be done when the time came.

Hell, in the other thread I even said that if time was short, and it was jump now or go down with the plane, you should probably jump, pilot's consent or no. I'm a fan of being a team player in these situations, as long as my life isn't on the line. Anywhere above 2k, I'm still well within my comfort zone being in the plane. Once we dip below 2k, much like freefall, it's every man *(or woman) for themselves, and by 1500ft, I'm out the door.

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Yep...I'm with you on this one...all the way.

Hell, guys, at least give the pilot a chance to smooth things out before you go all crazy jumping up and cramming for the door.

Stupid thing...
I've been stuck in the jump master role on engine mals three times...each on an Otter and it just amazes me to see experienced jumpers yelling, popping up in the aisle tightening legstraps and chest straps blocking the view to the pilot.
:S:S:S
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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In the hypothetical, I'd wait.

I was in a C182 that had the engine die and come back at about 9k. The first time it happened, I made sure I was ready to go, by the third time, with the pilot visibly irritated, he told us to just get out. At that point the engine was still running but we weren't climbing. Not that dramatic but in keeping with my inclination to get word from the pilot first.

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I was in a L-10 once on jump-run when the left spinner quit, the pilot said everybody out NOW....



Was jumping in the Dolemites of southern Austria when the Cessna went real quiet. (There was a fuel vent problem) The pilot starts yelling "AUSFAHRT! in a panicky tone. The door swung open and the mountains were about 300 feet below. I gave him a 90 left and waited a bit to get back over the valley.

Listen and look.

jon



When the pilot starts yelling "AUSFAHRT" you know you are in trouble. I am not sure what it means but it just sounds bad.
Onward and Upward!

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I was in a L-10 once on jump-run when the left spinner quit, the pilot said everybody out NOW....



Was jumping in the Dolemites of southern Austria when the Cessna went real quiet. (There was a fuel vent problem) The pilot starts yelling "AUSFAHRT! in a panicky tone. The door swung open and the mountains were about 300 feet below. I gave him a 90 left and waited a bit to get back over the valley.

Listen and look.

jon



When the pilot starts yelling "AUSFAHRT" you know you are in trouble. I am not sure what it means but it just sounds bad.



:D:ph34r: Right call, it means Exit:ph34r:
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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if I had all the facts I would climb to the front of the plan, open the door and leave. Why land under a dead stick with 17 jumpers???

pilot in command? lots of pilots were in command until they died.



You should fill out your profile. A lot of jumpers would like to know where you jump and stay off the loads you are on.
First of all you are not going to “have all the facts” until both you and the pilot get on the ground. Second you are at 9,000 feet in level flight, don’t panic. Third the door is not in the front of a C-208 hits in the back, left side.
If you are not sitting at the door what do you think these 16 other jumpers will be doing while you are crawling over them to get to the door.
You are right you can die in a jump plane crash but the chances will be less if you sit down, shut up and listen. Playing by your own rules can end up killing everyone.

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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A plane with no engine only gets once chance to land. With NO acceleration corrections, the pilot has to be spot on.

If at 3k it looks like the plane may not make it back to an actual designated landing strip... I'm out.
*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

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If the pilot has control of the aircraft and there's altitude to spare I'd definitely want to ask/tell him before jumping out. That said, I would never land with the aircraft given a choice. If everything is spinning I'll probably just try getting out. If it looks like we're going to make an emergency landing in a forest or other obstacle filled area I'm probably getting out as well. Burning to death is on the top of my no thank you list.

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...the point being that we should not always sit like sheep and do nothing, just because the pilot is silent.



If I’m at the door in an aircraft emergency and the PIC does not give a specific 'stay put' command, he is flying and leaving the decision to exit to my discretion.

JC

If you woke up breathing, congratulations!
You get another chance.

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In extreme situations, we must make our own intelligent, rational choices to increase survival. We are not just bags of cargo.




I agree with this statement. What I don't agree with is that the situation you described and the what happened in the MI incident qualifies as an extreme situation that requires quick thinking and action. And I can say that because I have been in that situation and there was plenty of time to wait and see what the pilot wanted us to do. No need to panic and rush for the door as you seem to be advocating.

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In extreme situations, we must make our own intelligent, rational choices to increase survival. We are not just bags of cargo.


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I agree with this statement. What I don't agree with is that the situation you described and the what happened in the MI incident qualifies as an extreme situation that requires quick thinking and action. And I can say that because I have been in that situation and there was plenty of time to wait and see what the pilot wanted us to do. No need to panic and rush for the door as you seem to be advocating.



I think its pretty obvious that the decision time comes at a critical altitude, where your last chance for an exit at a safe altitude goes by....2 or 3 grand, sometimes lower for the individual. Quite safe to stay with it, till then, unless its a structural failure...

Its madness to stay in the plane when you have 2 parachutes on your back, after all their original role was to save lives when the plane quits.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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I agree, but John Rich seems to be advocating exiting the plane right away in the scenario described with out waiting for any input from the pilot. The scenario he described has plenty of time to wait for pilot instructions. It's not at a critical altitude and there is no structural failure that is causing the plane to descend quickly and uncontrollably.

In that scenario it is highly unlikely that the pilot is not going to relay instructions with in a reasonable time frame.

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