Difference in Flare of new canopy vs 500 jump canopy

[fatso 0]

looking for opinions of what people think of the difference in flare power of a new canopy compared to the same one with 500 jumps on it. ive heard really different opinions on this. ive spoken to paraglider guys who swear that older wings have a lot less flare and skydivers who say theres no difference.

[wasatchrider 0]

Ive put over 350 on my canopy and have not noticed any difference but maybe because its gradual. Ill tell you in another 150 jumps

BASE 1519

[DcloudZ 0]

You wouldn't noticed it if you put the 500 jumps on it yourself since it is a gradual decrease in flare power but if you do a back-to-back jump with a canopy that is brand new and then another one right after with the same brand that has 1000 jumps you would likely notice a difference.

There could be a couple reasons for this:

1) The fabric could have degraded over time, providing a less solid surface for the air to deflect

2) The lines could be out of trim

3) The brake lines could be out of trim/it's length could have changed (stretched)

I'm sure there are a couple more possibilities but that's what I've got! Hope it helps

"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way." -Alan Watts

[verticalflyer 11]

fatso

looking for opinions of what people think of the difference in flare power of a new canopy compared to the same one with 500 jumps on it. ive heard really different opinions on this. ive spoken to paraglider guys who swear that older wings have a lot less flare and skydivers who say theres no difference.

A paraglider may be thinking of 500 paraglider flights which would equate to a huge amount more UV damage than 500 standard skydive descents. Personally at 500 jumps my canopies have always flown fine and had plenty of flare even at 1000.

Dont just talk about it, Do it!

[Zlew 0]

at 500, most likely the biggest thing that may impact flare (and a few other things....) will be the lines. If the lines are in good shape and good trim there won't be much difference between 10 jumps and 500 jumps.

[boyfalldown 0]

I have 2 katana 120s, one I've owned since new with 1000+ jumps and another with <100 jumps. Jumping them back to back all day I notice no difference in how they fly or land. I prefer to jump the older canopy as it seems to open nicer.

[Elisha 1]

boyfalldown

I have 2 katana 120s, one I've owned since new with 1000+ jumps and another with <100 jumps. Jumping them back to back all day I notice no difference in how they fly or land. I prefer to jump the older canopy as it seems to open nicer.

I would add *ahem* and packs easier....big reason I'm hesitant to ever buy a new canopy other than cost.

[popsjumper 2]

Same here as most...no difference in the canopy itself.

As noted by some above, other things affect the flare much more so than the canopy age would.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[DcloudZ 0]

popsjumper

Same here as most...no difference in the canopy itself.

As noted by some above, other things affect the flare much more so than the canopy age would.

I know you have TONS more experience than I, but I don't think I quite agree with that.

Why is it that a brand new canopy is really slick and opaque but an older one is more smooth and see-through? Does this not have an effect on the way this canopy interacts with the air around it? Please correct me if I have any misconceptions!

Thanks

"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way." -Alan Watts

[popsjumper 2]

popsjumper

Why is it that a brand new canopy is really slick and opaque but an older one is more smooth and see-through? Does this not have an effect on the way this canopy interacts with the air around it? Please correct me if I have any misconceptions!

How refreshing...disagreement without bashing.

OK..zp is zp.
IMO, the "roughing up" of the canopy material and it's effects on airflow over it would be so minimal it would be noticeable only to somebody like Brian Germaine. Maybe the physicists in here could shoot that down but I don't think so.
.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[DcloudZ 0]

popsjumper

***
Why is it that a brand new canopy is really slick and opaque but an older one is more smooth and see-through? Does this not have an effect on the way this canopy interacts with the air around it? Please correct me if I have any misconceptions!

How refreshing...disagreement without bashing.

OK..zp is zp.
IMO, the "roughing up" of the canopy material and it's effects on airflow over it would be so minimal it would be noticeable only to somebody like Brian Germaine. Maybe the physicists in here could shoot that down but I don't think so.
.

So over the life of a canopy, the zero-perosity fabric remains zero-perosity?

Why is it then that if a canopy gets wet and doesn't dry properly that it can affect it's flight characteristics. If the ZP canopy could change it's flight characteristics based on it getting wet then should that mean that it is not entirely un-alterable ZP?

Keep in mind that the definition of ZP fabric means that the fabric is 100% air and water resistant.

"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way." -Alan Watts

[popsjumper 2]

DcloudZ

So over the life of a canopy, the zero-perosity fabric remains zero-perosity?

Sure! Unless you abuse it in some way.
-dirt
-sand
-briars
-cornfields
-dragging
-flare guns
-other

Quote

Why is it then that if a canopy gets wet and doesn't dry properly that it can affect it's flight characteristics. If the ZP canopy could change it's flight characteristics based on it getting wet then should that mean that it is not entirely un-alterable ZP?

Well, changing the topic from "flare" to "wet"...OK
I don't know about wet canopies flying differently. Never had the opportunity. I suppose a swooper would be a better person to ask about that. I only know that one way to dry a canopy is to jump it.

Quote

Keep in mind that the definition of ZP fabric means that the fabric is 100% air and water resistant.

If your zp canopy is leaking air, it's no longer the same canopy as new...you probably have holes in it that need patching.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[fanya 3]

I had a Sabre1 150 that I don't have any clue how many jumps it had on it but you could see through the silver center cell on the area that you laid on it to cocoon it. I put another 400 on it and then sold rig and I'm pretty sure the canopy is still flying. I'd say it had to have had a couple thousand jumps on it, I could be wrong but it packed like a rag and I've never seen another canopy you could see through the cell like that. I'm not sure if I could have passed a weight test but it flared and landed great for me.

[cube 0]

DcloudZ

******
Why is it that a brand new canopy is really slick and opaque but an older one is more smooth and see-through? Does this not have an effect on the way this canopy interacts with the air around it? Please correct me if I have any misconceptions!

How refreshing...disagreement without bashing.

OK..zp is zp.
IMO, the "roughing up" of the canopy material and it's effects on airflow over it would be so minimal it would be noticeable only to somebody like Brian Germaine. Maybe the physicists in here could shoot that down but I don't think so.
.

So over the life of a canopy, the zero-perosity fabric remains zero-perosity?

Why is it then that if a canopy gets wet and doesn't dry properly that it can affect it's flight characteristics. If the ZP canopy could change it's flight characteristics based on it getting wet then should that mean that it is not entirely un-alterable ZP?

Keep in mind that the definition of ZP fabric means that the fabric is 100% air and water resistant.

You can easily check how well it's air proof. Just take a part of it and take it to your mouth and blow (that's what she said). I have tried that with pretty old canopies and havn't been able to get any air through.

The color difference is due the UV-radiation fading the dye, it hasn't necessarily affected the porosity. If you take a brand new white canopy, the fabric pretty much see through.

As to the slipperiness, I don't really see it having too much affect to the flight.

[Joellercoaster 6]

popsjumper

If your zp canopy is leaking air, it's no longer the same canopy as new...you probably have holes in it that need patching.

Or it has seams

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[popsjumper 2]

Joellercoaster

***If your zp canopy is leaking air, it's no longer the same canopy as new...you probably have holes in it that need patching.

Or it has seams


yeah, there's that.
That's a whole bunch of holes!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Fast 0]

popsjumper

***So over the life of a canopy, the zero-perosity fabric remains zero-perosity?

Sure! Unless you abuse it in some way.
-dirt
-sand
-briars
-cornfields
-dragging
-flare guns
-other


I disagree. If that were the case then I could buy one canopy and use it forever. I think your mincing words here though. Cause a canopy with X000 jumps is going to have more "wear". Which can cause it to be less "zero porosity" than a new canopy.

I'm not talking out of my ass here, I just went from a canopy with 3000 jumps on it to one with none (brand new) and there is a distinct difference.

Just sayin is all...

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[DcloudZ 0]

Thank you! I knew I was somewhat right

"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way." -Alan Watts

[popsjumper 2]

You didn't see the "-other" did you.
Quite obvious that nothing lasts forever.

It's either ZP or it's not..there's no "less ZP".

I think your experience with the two was much more related to other factors than how well air passes across the canopy material.

Off the top of my head...the seams as mentioned above..could it be they have expanded somewhat noticeably over all those jumps and creating a lot of turbulence in that boundary layer? But then that has nothing to do with the material itself.

You're free to think differently.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

DcloudZ

Thank you! I knew I was somewhat right

Don't be too quick to go with the answer you wanted to hear. No physicists or other math types have piped in to tell us just how much difference there is in airflow over ZP material, new vs worn.

I'm saying "not enough for the jumper to tell the difference".
Remember we're talking about your question about the material itself...not any other factors.

I'm willing to change my mind if evidence shows otherwise.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[davelepka 4]

Quote

I'm not talking out of my ass here, I just went from a canopy with 3000 jumps on it to one with none (brand new) and there is a distinct difference

Same model and size, and the old one had a fresh line set with the latest trim specs?

I've gone through more than a handful of high time canopies, and each and every one of them flew like a totally different canopy after a new line set was installed. All of them smaller, high performance wings, where I really didn't have the 'luxury' of losing much in the way of aerodynamic performance.

I'd say that ZP is fairly 'robust' and that you need to get into some very worn material before new lines won't make it into a 'new' canopy. The exact numbers depend on the environment and care, here in Ohio, a well cared for canopy will last for thousands of jumps. In dusty Eloy, it might be half of that.

[popsjumper 2]

...nobody caught the flare gun reference...

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[grue 1]

popsjumper

...nobody caught the flare gun reference...

IIIIIII did

cavete terrae.

[sundevil777 94]

popsjumper

You didn't see the "-other" did you.
Quite obvious that nothing lasts forever.

It's either ZP or it's not..there's no "less ZP".

I think your experience with the two was much more related to other factors than how well air passes across the canopy material.

Off the top of my head...the seams as mentioned above..could it be they have expanded somewhat noticeably over all those jumps and creating a lot of turbulence in that boundary layer? But then that has nothing to do with the material itself.

You're free to think differently.

Why does porosity of the fabric matter so much? Maybe not for the reason you think...and why are mfgs putting ZP on the top skin only of some canopies - why does that not result in a canopy that will perform badly after a couple hundred jumps?

The following is based on my somewhat informed opinion of what I know of wing aerodynamics. I hope others can confirm or rebut my claim.

When a wing is flying at high angles of attack (such as during a flared landing), it is very important that the airflow over the top of the wing stay "attached"/not separate from the surface of the wing (or else the lift suffers greatly - the flare is lousy). If air is leaking out through the top skin fabric too much, then I think it has the effect of separating the airflow. Conditions on the bottom skin of the wing are very different, with separation not being an issue, so leakage through non-ZP fabric doesn't matter.

If it was possible to actually suck air into the wing through/from the top skin, then you get the ability to produce good lift at higher angles of attack, as the airflow stays attached when it otherwise would not. This has been done on some experimental airplanes, including a Boeing 757 testbed that had part of the wing drilled with very tiny holes and a vacuum applied to suck air into the wing. So, air leaking out through the fabric matters a lot for the top skin, but not for the bottom, as long as it is not so much that cell pressurization suffers.

I put a few hundred jumps on a PD210 9 cell (non zero P material) and it was great for me at a WL of 1.2. The canopy had 7 jumps on it when I bought it, basically new, but it didn't land so well after the first hundred. So, what I did was spray 3M scotchgard on the top skin (and it soaked into the rest of it), really soaked it about 3 times, and I know it improved the flare performance. The thing suddenly was able to plane out like it did when it was new. I jumped it for about 100 jumps after I coated the sucker, the stuff did not harm the fabric.

I do realize that many will say that others have tried to coat non-zero P fabric with silicones and other such stuff (there is probably a silicone spray that might be even more effective) to make them effectively more zero P, and the results have been hard openings and blown canopies on opening, but I had none of those problems at all. I understand some will say it is not right to in effect encourage others to do the same, but I actually tried it instead of just saying what I think it will do. Perhaps the scotchguard reduced the porosity enough without it being too much, I don't know. I was willing to risk it - if the result was bad I was going to want a new canopy anyway and my old one was basically worthless also.

Getting back to the original thread topic, I think ZP fabric remains close enough to ZP for a very long time, close enough that canopies still flare well with a lot of jumps on them. The amount of air leaking through ZP fabric after 1 or 2k jumps is still likely a lot less than what you'd have from non-ZP fabric when it is new.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

Why does porosity of the fabric matter so much?

Well, we are talking about ZP not porous materials. It's my opinion that if your ZP material is leaking air through it, you no longer have ZP. What you have is a porous material and you can measure that porosity. 3 cf/m? 2cf/m 1 cf/m? I'm sure you know what F111's rating is.

Quote

Maybe not for the reason you think...

I'm not sure what you are getting at here. ZP compared to porous?

Quote

and why are mfgs putting ZP on the top skin only of some canopies - why does that not result in a canopy that will perform badly after a couple hundred jumps?

Cost? Packing volume?
I don't know of any canopy that will perform badly after a couple hundred jumps.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239