gregpso 1 #1 July 26, 2013 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why do hop and pops have to be done so early in ones jumping career. Could it wait until B or C licence when one is more experienced. Have read a few reports re hop and pops with students,,,, including one fatality in Australia a few years ago. Whats the hurry when it obviously causes so much stress to new jumpers ?? There is another curly question for a certain CI who banned me for daring to ask " Why no skyhooks on the student rigs " ? Instead of an answer I got banned from AFF and set up by fellow travellers of being sexist .. when I warned female Aussie skydivers of the male predators at DZs (admit I used fairly basic language. but my intention was good. Talk about shooting the messenger !! I should go away but yes the answer is no I am not going any whereI tend to be a bit different. enjoyed my time in the sport or is it an industry these days ?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
excaza 1 #2 July 26, 2013 gregpsoWhats the hurry when it obviously causes so much stress to new jumpers ?? What happens when a new jumper has to get out of the plane in an emergency and has never gotten out lower than 13.5k feet? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SethInMI 146 #3 July 26, 2013 gregpso Talk about shooting the messenger !! Yes, Greg, let's talk about shooting the messenger. I for one am on principle against it, but in your case I would be willing to make an exception.It's flare not flair, brakes not breaks, bridle not bridal, "could NOT care less" not "could care less". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SeanYang2k 0 #4 July 26, 2013 My favorite and most memorable jump during AFF was the 3500 hop and pop! I would argue that it's part of AFF because it teaches emergency bail out procedures in case of a plane emergency and the Pilot says "GTFO!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #5 July 26, 2013 QuoteWhy do hop and pops have to be done so early in ones jumping career. Could it wait until B or C licence when one is more experienced. Have read a few reports re hop and pops with students,,,, including one fatality in Australia a few years ago. Whats the hurry when it obviously causes so much stress to new jumpers ?? Most of the hop n pop incidents have been tail strikes, and that is on the pilot/dzo, not the jumper. If they do not give the jumper a full cut jumprun, they are asking for problems with certain types of aircraft. As to the 'why', the answer has already been given in the other thread where you posted the same question verbatim. The fact is, an exit with a short delay is the same from 3500' and 13,500'. The student may have a psychological block that makes them think otherwise, and they need to get over that and see the truth of the matter. In case they need to exit low in the case of an emergency, they shouldn't be worried about the 'low' exit, they should be confident in their abilities to exit safely, and that comes from real world experience. If you really have been jumping for 30 years as your profile suggests, you would realize that there was a time that every jumper made their first freefall from 3500' or lower. The static line progression involves several jumps with a static line, and then moves to a clear and pull without the static line, but from the same static line altitude. Jumpers would move on to slightly higher altitudes with slightly longer delays with each subsequent jump, but their first jump where it was 'pull or die' was from the lowest altitude they would be jumping from, typically 3500' or less. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 370 #6 July 26, 2013 davelepka*** Most of the hop n pop incidents have been tail strikes, and that is on the pilot/dzo, not the jumper. It's on the jumper as well. No DZO should require jumpers to exit with less than a correct aircraft configuration, no pilot should allow it, and no jumper should DO IT.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oldwomanc6 38 #7 July 26, 2013 You bring up a very good point about static-line progression. I was trained with S/L, and my first freefall was from 3000'. As a student progresses they don't get to go higher until mastering each short delay. Static line students may have other unreasonable fears, but getting stable right out the door usually isn't one of them. If the pilot were to stay GTFO at 2 grand (or even lower--it would just change whether they would go straight to reserve), chances are they would be worried more about where they were than how high (and even typing this I realized that I said "how high" and not "how low"--says a lot about the way a brain works)lisa WSCR 594 FB 1023 CBDB 9 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #8 July 26, 2013 gregpso I should go away but yes the answer is no I am not going any where Use your brain. Does an aircraft emergency wait until a skydiver is a B or C license before it becomes possible? I never hear a PT6 debating this before, "man I really want to puke out my hot section today, but I noticed there were a few newly licensed jumpers on board". And it is a real shame you won't leave. You need a hobby other than pestering people on the internet. My guess is we were just unlucky enough that you happened to pick skydiving. If you had you chosen golf, or r/c planes, or any other activity chances are you would be on some message board bemoaning how you were unfairly run out of the golf,r/c plane, or whatever community. You rub people the wrong way, and your refusal to move a long is a perfect example of it!"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muffie 0 #9 July 26, 2013 DougH*** I should go away but yes the answer is no I am not going any where Use your brain. Does an aircraft emergency wait until a skydiver is a B or C license before it becomes possible? I never hear a PT6 debating this before, "man I really want to puke out my hot section today, but I noticed there were a few newly licensed jumpers on board". And it is a real shame you won't leave. You need a hobby other than pestering people on the internet. My guess is we were just unlucky enough that you happened to pick skydiving. If you had you chosen golf, or r/c planes, or any other activity chances are you would be on some message board bemoaning how you were unfairly run out of the golf,r/c plane, or whatever community. You rub people the wrong way, and your refusal to move a long is a perfect example of it! I second all of the above. TO THE OP: Better to make your first hop n pop in a calm learning environment where you can back out if you need to than have to do it for the first time when you're plane is plummeting to the ground. And, seriously, LET IT GO. You have been on here complaining about how they ran you off the dz for so long that it's just boring at this point. I don't know you, I don't know the people from that dz. I know your posts. And your posts tell me you have an issue because you can't let this thing die. There's a whole world out there--tons of amazing things you could be doing with your life. Find one of them. And, as a woman, if some guy had told me without my asking that men can be dogs and done so in a crude way, I would've been inclined to tell him to fuck off. One, because, "no shit." And, two, because chances are that guy was being ten times as creepy as any of the "dropzone dogs." WALK AWAY. And if you can't, seek help. Your obsession with this is not healthy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #10 July 26, 2013 hahaha! You're hilarious. Lots of things need fixing in this sport. The requirement for a hop and pop isn't one of them. Pick another random aspect of the sport and start arguing with people who know far, far better than you - I'm sure that one'll turn out well too. How about telling Bill Booth that tandems are dangerous because you saw an incident report once? That should be good for a giggle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rwieder 0 #11 July 26, 2013 Seek life elsewhere. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #12 July 26, 2013 Quote I should go away but yes the answer is no I am not going any where Isn't that what you told the last DZO that banned you from his operation for life? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trafficdiver 8 #13 July 26, 2013 Why not force all beginners to stay in the wind tunnel? Or at least do 50 tandems before AFF, just like you did? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
milehigheric 0 #14 July 26, 2013 Go Jump Greg! Get off the fucking internet Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 151 #15 July 26, 2013 Hop and pops are great fun and almost certainly safer than your average skydive. The aircraft must be correctly configured, but that is true on any jump. Part of the problem is people's mindset. They get scared of exiting at 4000 to 5000 feet, but they will happily break from s formation at the same height! From 5000 ft you've got 15+ seconds to get to a normal deployment altitude. We should actually be doing them from 2500 or so and even then it's not a panic. For what it is worth, I'd say a tandem has more risk than a hop and pop.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodhisattva420 0 #16 July 27, 2013 Because we said so MAGGOT! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oldwomanc6 38 #17 July 27, 2013 THAT was unnecessary. lisa WSCR 594 FB 1023 CBDB 9 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #18 July 27, 2013 oldwomanc6 THAT was unnecessary. Term of endearment among SCR-SCS peeps! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Usetawuz 1 #19 July 27, 2013 You're joking! Right? _________________________________________ The older I get, the better I was! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oldwomanc6 38 #20 July 27, 2013 airtwardo ***THAT was unnecessary. Term of endearment among SCR-SCS peeps! So, do you have your WSCR, yet? The numbers are open, again. lisa WSCR 594 FB 1023 CBDB 9 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #21 July 27, 2013 oldwomanc6 ******THAT was unnecessary. Term of endearment among SCR-SCS peeps! So, do you have your WSCR, yet? The numbers are open, again. Not going there...OR AARP! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jclalor 12 #22 July 28, 2013 This illustrates the dangers of jumping up on an exit. http://youtu.be/EQOA5x4fbpA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #23 July 29, 2013 jclalorThis illustrates the dangers of jumping up on an exit. ...especially whilst the plane is not in the correct configuration for exitSkydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,364 #24 July 29, 2013 gregpso -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why do hop and pops have to be done so early in ones jumping career. Could it wait until B or C licence when one is more experienced. Have read a few reports re hop and pops with students,,,, including one fatality in Australia a few years ago. Whats the hurry when it obviously causes so much stress to new jumpers ?? There is another curly question for a certain CI who banned me for daring to ask " Why no skyhooks on the student rigs " ? Instead of an answer I got banned from AFF and set up by fellow travellers of being sexist .. when I warned female Aussie skydivers of the male predators at DZs (admit I used fairly basic language. but my intention was good. Talk about shooting the messenger !! I should go away but yes the answer is no I am not going any where I don't know about Oz land, but here in the US, H&P is a requirement for an A license. For good reasons. You are a fine example of "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." You have no clue why they are necessary. And you rail on about how dangerous they are (which they can be, done improperly). And were you booted from a DZ for 'daring to ask " Why no skyhooks on the student rigs "?' Or was it for insisting that skyhooks were necessary, the DZO should replace all his student gear immediately, and if he didn't, the DZO would be criminally negligent for putting students into "death on a stick" dangerously inadequate gear? I'm perfectly happy "shooting the messenger" when that messenger is Chicken Little."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwhenline 0 #25 July 30, 2013 I have no real dog against this poster but the question is a valid one. I personally believe that HOP and POP from 3500 feet to get an A license is silly and probably not warranted. Ill explain Students are not as experienced as most jumpers and their exits are often not the best. Why put them on purpose into a situation that could be potentially dangerous. Much better to allow them to fall from 12K feet and get stable with plenty of time to relax and make adjustments if there is an opening failure. Using the arguement that you need to be "prepared" for a emergency landing of the plane is not very sound. Planes are generally safe and turbine engines have a very low failure record. I doubt that most skydivers have jumped out of a plane in an emergency. It is a very rare event, whereas having a malfunction on opening is a much more common event. Why have that pressure on a student with a low number of jumps? Just doesnt make sense. H and P should not be required for a student A license. Feel free to disagree but dont use an arguement you cant defend, such as a "plane emergency". Dont know what the beef is with the poster but the question remians valid. dwh Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites