EVs, Aspirations vs Reality

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

2 hours ago, tkhayes said:

...You do realize surely why we question your abilities to form a rational argument right? 

Some of us don't question mythical things.

We know that they don't exist. 

[JoeWeber 2,299]

2 hours ago, kallend said:

Trolls don't need to form rational arguments.  They just need to generate responses.

You're a clever guy, and yet while you disparage troll feeders you still, knowing full well that your back handed repartees feed the pigeon, persist. I'll forgive myself, with your permission.

[brenthutch 383]

3 hours ago, tkhayes said:

earlier you were complaining that they are not economically viable for the CONSUMER.... now you are saying the problem is that the manufacturers and the dealers are not going to make enough money?  If costs are coming down, then that is good for the consumer.  and the viability of EVs working.  Tesla profits might be down, but they are still very much profitable.....

You do realize surely why we question your abilities to form a rational argument right?  I mean you do surely understand that you have yet to offer any consistent point throughout this entire thread and that is why we continue to question WTF it is that you are on about.... right?

Surely you realize both can be true. EV companies lower prices, eviscerating profits while at the same their price cuts destroy the value of earlier models purchased at full price. 

[normiss 622]

5 hours ago, tkhayes said:

earlier you were complaining that they are not economically viable for the CONSUMER.... now you are saying the problem is that the manufacturers and the dealers are not going to make enough money?  If costs are coming down, then that is good for the consumer.  and the viability of EVs working.  Tesla profits might be down, but they are still very much profitable.....

You do realize surely why we question your abilities to form a rational argument right?  I mean you do surely understand that you have yet to offer any consistent point throughout this entire thread and that is why we continue to question WTF it is that you are on about.... right?

Goal posts on wheels, SOP for some of the naysayers. 

[brenthutch 383]

9 hours ago, normiss said:

Goal posts on wheels, SOP for some of the naysayers. 

It’s not a matter of moving the goalposts, it is a matter of choosing which goalposts to use and when discussing the slowing growth in demand of EVs there are many goalposts….so many goalposts.

[lippy 771]

1 hour ago, brenthutch said:

It’s not a matter of moving the goalposts, it is a matter of choosing which goalposts to use and when discussing the slowing growth in demand of EVs there are many goalposts….so many goalposts.

That right there almost generated a spit take.  If you feel so sure that you've got several solid arguments, then pick one FFS!  Whenever somebody calls you out on a dubious claim, you jump to 'another goalpost' until somebody calls you out there, then rinse and repeat.  It's like a game of Denier Whack-A-Mole, and everybody loses....Does that make Bill and Wendy the Carnies?

[brenthutch 383]

36 minutes ago, lippy said:

That right there almost generated a spit take.  If you feel so sure that you've got several solid arguments, then pick one FFS!  Whenever somebody calls you out on a dubious claim, you jump to 'another goalpost' until somebody calls you out there, then rinse and repeat.  It's like a game of Denier Whack-A-Mole, and everybody loses....Does that make Bill and Wendy the Carnies?

My OP was:

“As I have said many times before, EVs remain a niche market for lefty effetes, while normal folks stick with ICE vehicles. A reality the car industry is now coming to terms with.”

With unsold EV inventories piling up on dealership lots, car companies are canceling projects, cutting production, slashing prices, all the while losing money on every unit sold. my original point stands. It is only going to get worse as the $7500 tax incentives are now gone on most vehicles. A simple reality that some on this forum are unable to grasp.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-12-14/ev-inventories-hit-record-high-in-us-as-cars-pile-up-on-dealer-lots

Edited January 5 by brenthutch

[airdvr 197]

I think there's a place for both.  I don't see ICEs going away anytime soon.  There's so many industries that rely on ICEs.

If EVs are your thing that's fine.  I'll stick with gas buggies as long as I can.

[wmw999 2,122]

2 minutes ago, airdvr said:

I think there's a place for both.  I don't see ICEs going away anytime soon.  There's so many industries that rely on ICEs.

If EVs are your thing that's fine.  I'll stick with gas buggies as long as I can.

And that's fine. I'm glad you don't lump everyone who buys or considers an EV a lefty effete. Name-calling generally wins few arguments. 

If most of your driving is local, and you have another vehicle for regular long-distance drives (or want to rent for very occasional ones), then an EV is an excellent choice. If you're a road warrior who had a wide-ranging territory that you have to drive and make deadlines, then an EV is not a good choice.

Kind of like SUV's and pickups. If you never carry stuff, why drive that big behemoth around, and spend all the money to shift its weight?

Wendy P.

[billvon 2,400]

1 hour ago, airdvr said:

I think there's a place for both.  I don't see ICEs going away anytime soon.  There's so many industries that rely on ICEs.

Agreed - although for 90% of the industries out there, the conversion to EV will not be difficult. 

Quote

If EVs are your thing that's fine.  I'll stick with gas buggies as long as I can.

That's also fine.  The next generation is growing up in a world where EVs are a thing, and for many, the only vehicle they will know.  They'll treat gas cars the way we treat diesel cars (or rotary engine cars) nowadays - as an option, but not something one would normally buy unless they had a specific reason.

The important thing isn't to get everyone driving an EV right now.  The important thing is to move away from burning fossil fuels over time.  If in 10 years we get to only 50% of new sales being electrified that's a good thing overall - for several reasons.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

This idea that products can only be good if they are perfect for every possibly solution is so stupid.

[SethInMI 145]

3 hours ago, billvon said:

If in 10 years we get to only 50% of new sales being electrified that's a good thing overall - for several reasons.

agreed.  I add that plug-in hybrids are also a fine solution for lowering carbon emissions, as many trips can be done solely or almost solely electrically.  Any way to get clean energy from the grid into peoples' cars or trucks is a win.

[olofscience 421]

8 hours ago, brenthutch said:

It’s not a matter of moving the goalposts, it is a matter of choosing which goalposts to use

That's...exactly the same as moving goalposts. Do you hear yourself?

[lippy 771]

6 hours ago, brenthutch said:

My OP was:

“As I have said many times before, EVs remain a niche market for lefty effetes, while normal folks stick with ICE vehicles. A reality the car industry is now coming to terms with.”

Whatever you say Skippy.

[lippy 771]

1 hour ago, SethInMI said:

agreed.  I add that plug-in hybrids are also a fine solution for lowering carbon emissions, as many trips can be done solely or almost solely electrically.  Any way to get clean energy from the grid into peoples' cars or trucks is a win.

I wonder about plug-in hybrids.  On the one hand, you could say it's the best of both worlds as far as an EV without the range anxiety.  On the other hand, part of the appeal of a straight EV is that it's an overall simpler machine.  How much more shit is there to go wrong when mashing the two together, and practically how much of a liability is this?

[wmw999 2,122]

It’s definitely a more complex machine; I really see it as a compromise until we have a better idea of what’s going to work as long-range vehicles. It could be that mass transit will get to be a better option for more people, and it might be a regional thing. Here in the eastern US, buses and trains aren’t unreasonable options; we regularly use them to get to a major airport, or to go to one of the big cities for a trip.

Consider skydiving; there have been plenty of intermediate steps to where we are with equipment, and only a few die-hards honestly believe equipment isn’t better now than in the 1970’s. And no one really believes we’re at the pinnacle of parachute technology with nowhere else to go, either. Sometimes good enough is a step to better, remembering that technology is multi-dimensional too. What good would an iPhone have done in the 1960’s? Only Maxwell Smart had something like that

Wendy P. 

[billvon 2,400]

5 minutes ago, lippy said:

How much more shit is there to go wrong when mashing the two together, and practically how much of a liability is this?

Good Q.  A good example to look at is the reliability rating of the Toyota Prius.  All versions of the Prius (including the HEV and PHEV models) have the same basic parts; the only real change is that the battery gets bigger in the PHEV model and they add a charging receptacle.

Per "Repair Pal" both have a slightly higher repair rating than an average car (needs more repairs) but a significantly lower total cost of repair per year, indicating that the repairs required are inexpensive.  In addition, the severity of the problems is lower than average.

Per Consumer Reports, the Prius family is "much more reliable than the average new car."  Per JD Powers, reliability rating was 74 out of 100, which is comparable to other similar cars.  Top problem listed was "windshield prone to cracking."

[SethInMI 145]

1 hour ago, lippy said:

How much more shit is there to go wrong when mashing the two together, and practically how much of a liability is this?

The advantage I see is that PHEVs don't run the engine as much, so less wear and tear on it should make it last longer, and the electrical parts of the drivetrain should be very reliable. (edit some Hybrids don't have a transmission with many gears so they eliminate a lot of complexity there)

Really either way (pure EV or PHEV) you have to pay a lot of money for something you don't need very often, just for long trips. (pure EV extra battery capacity; PHEV an entire engine).

I like the pure EV b/c the driving experience is better with smoother acceleration and ease of maintenance (no oil changes, etc) but I ain't throwing rocks at anyone with a PHEV

Edited January 5 by SethInMI
prius

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

2 hours ago, lippy said:

I wonder about plug-in hybrids.  On the one hand, you could say it's the best of both worlds as far as an EV without the range anxiety.  On the other hand, part of the appeal of a straight EV is that it's an overall simpler machine.  How much more shit is there to go wrong when mashing the two together, and practically how much of a liability is this?

I very seriously considered a plug in hybrid.

I went with the Bolt (pure EV) for a few different reasons. 
 

(in no particular order)

PHEV have fairly short electric ranges. Under ideal conditions, my Bolt will go over 300 miles on a full charge. PHEV will go less than 100. Some a lot less.

Complexity. PHEV still have a full gasoline engine. Oil changes, belts & hoses, coolant changes, all the difficulties and complexities of an ICE car. EVs require brakes, tires and coolant flush/change (Bolt has a liquid cooled battery - it makes it much more reliable and durable). That's it.

Cost. A PHEV would have run well over $40k for the age/mileage I wanted. New run upwards of $60k. And that's for a Toyota, not the Porsche. 

As some have noted, EVs aren't for everyone. But, kinda like the big pickup truck, if someone looks closely at what they actually need in a vehicle, they might find an EV fits better than they thought.
I certainly fall into that category. 

In the 2 months I've had it, I haven't run into a situation that I felt I couldn't do anything I wanted to. 
And, while it's parked for the winter, I have an ICE car that will fill any needs the Bolt can't. It may be nearly 40 years old, but I took it to California & back about 10 years ago. It may not be brand new, but it's in great shape and I'd trust it to go anywhere I wanted to.

[brenthutch 383]

My wife’s GLS is a hybrid, it had regenerative breaking and torque fill to reduce turbo lag, interesting technology but maintenance is $$$. OTOH my 11 year old, low tech,Honda has only had oil and tire changes and one break job.  I inquired about it’s 90k scheduled maintenance and it is about $2200 for belts, pump, plugs, valves etcI asked when the next one was scheduled, they told me not for another 90k+.

[Stumpy 256]

Speaking of EVs - I've just been offered a really good deal on a taycan wagon by a friend. Sorely tempted....

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

11 hours ago, Stumpy said:

Speaking of EVs - I've just been offered a really good deal on a taycan wagon by a friend. Sorely tempted....

There's no car more expensive than a 'cheap Porsche' (or other expensive exotic).

[Stumpy 256]

10 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

There's no car more expensive than a 'cheap Porsche' (or other expensive exotic).

Very true. Man it’s fast though, and effortless. I’ve built my own lotus 7 replica with plenty of power that’s as fast as anything else (within reason, multi million dollar hypercars aside) burning dinosaur juice, and this blows it into the weeds without making any fuss.

I think I’ll pass this time round, frankly just don’t need it and certainly don’t need the servicing costs.

[billvon 2,400]

On 1/5/2024 at 4:26 PM, wolfriverjoe said:

PHEV have fairly short electric ranges. Under ideal conditions, my Bolt will go over 300 miles on a full charge. PHEV will go less than 100. Some a lot less.

Yep.  I see that as both a plus and a minus.  I currently have a Prius Prime with about a 26 mile range.  I have to start the engine about once a month, since 26 miles covers my commute, trips to stores and picking up kids.  When I have to take a midrange trip (go camping locally) or a longer trip (Vegas) I use gas.

The plus of course is that I go through maybe two tanks of gas a year, and when I change the oil (which I've only done twice at 50,000 miles) it comes out looking exactly the same as it went in.  Also the battery is roughly 10% the size of a typical EV battery, so much less weight, resource usage and lost storage space.

[airdvr 197]

On 1/5/2024 at 10:20 AM, wmw999 said:

 

Kind of like SUV's and pickups. If you never carry stuff, why drive that big behemoth around, and spend all the money to shift its weight?

Wendy P.

The convenience of my truck is boat towing, hauling yard waste,  the occasional moving of objects, and the comfort of 4 WD during snowstorms. I don’t know anyone who has a truck that doesn’t use it for some or all of those things.