danielmaxin 0 #1 February 12, 2006 Hi, After my first tandem last summer I decided to start my AFF program soon. I am prefectly aware that one must accept the risk factor in order to enjoy almost any sport however there is only one problem related to skydiving that makes me fear too much about possible malfunctions. Namely, how much skill is needed in order to avoid/deal with the common malfunctions? What I mean is I would be more confident if I knew that anybody can execute in time and correctly all emergency procedures. For what I see this sport does not give any room to learn from mistakes. That's why there is no comfort to me in the fact that ,you are more likely to die from a car crash because going slow first one can learn to be a good driver from small mistakes In skydiving however there are only 20ish seconds to save your ass and I am affraid that should something wrong occur my lack of experience will prevent me to react correctly in an emergency. Bottom line is, should something bad happen during my jumps, I don't want that to be due to some avoidable mistakes. Now how do you learn to avoid that given the fact that you can't afford to intentionally simulate a malfunction up in the air just to practice your reactions? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #2 February 12, 2006 Ask you instructor. He/She should be able to answer all of your question. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #3 February 12, 2006 QuoteNow how do you learn to avoid that given the fact that you can't afford to intentionally simulate a malfunction up in the air just to practice your reactions?And imho the most important way to keep yourself "safe" You practice emergency procedures on the ground - preferably in a hanging harness with an instructor or other knowledgable person observing and critiquing, but it's also useful to practice them physically while geared up waiting for the plane, mentally while doing dishes or other mindless chores, etc. Practicing the physical motions builds muscle memory. We hope that having the right way to respond in muscle memory will overcome any possible "oh shit what do I do now?" mental reaction to a malfunction. Practicing how you want to react to situations mentally (through visualization) will hopefully reduce or eliminate the "oh shit what do I do now?" reaction. I'm still waiting to use the emergency procedures that I practice at least once before every skydive. I hope I'll react as I've trained myself to but until it happens I really don't know if I will or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virginflyer3 0 #4 February 12, 2006 Hey Daniel, I cannot offer any technical advice just my own experience of what you are feeling right now. I am in the same boat as you, Did a tandem, loved it and about to complete an AFF very soon. From what I gather everyone has these fears at the start, that in such a situation one doubts how they will cope and lack trust in their own ability to perform under the most intense pressure of all....saving their own life. It is against all our selfpreservational instincts to throw ourselves from perfectly functioning aircraft, yet some crazy ass dudes called "skydivers" do just that. So it is only natural to feel worried about the "malfunction" situation. I keep myself awake at night sometimes about it pondering...what if? What I have found has really worked though is to do the obvious and read, read, read. Suck up all the information you can. A good start for me was the malfunctions section in The Skydivers Handbook. I must have read it like a trillion times, especially that chapter. Although it is scarey to read all the possible situations you could be faced with at some time or another there is a huge amount of comfort in reading about it, arming yourself with the knowledge so there will be no surprises and how they can be resolved. You will find that your mind will start to almost visualise how it would be for you in that situation just like you probably go over and over how it felt hanging in the door strapped to your TI and how it will feel when you exit the first time on your AFF. I have come to realise that this is all part of the journey and it is why you have, or it has chosen you to be in this sport. You will feel a huge amount of varying emotions between now and when you do it and do you know what, I have now actually come to really enjoy feeling them. Without fear what does one have to be brave for? You would not be doing it if you did'nt feel it will challenge you and make you face fear. If you feel it to be a good thing I would also do a packing course alongside your AFF as it will help you understand what it is that breaks your fall and make you wiser in how it functions, which in turn will make you feel more able to cope in an emergency. Lastly, you will be absolutely fine and your instructors will not let you in the air if they have any doubt whatsoever about your ability. Good luck on your course and get reading! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites piisfish 135 #5 February 12, 2006 QuoteFor what I see this sport does not give any room to learn from mistakes. That's why there is no comfort to me in the fact that ,you are more likely to die from a car crash because going slow first one can learn to be a good driver from small mistakes In skydiving however there are only 20ish seconds to save your ass when you are in your car in a bad situation, you have usually less than 20 seconds to save your ass don't you ? The thing is you are learning at 120mph. There is space for small mistakes. You can learn from them. You can also partially learn from mistakes of other people. This whole adventure is a very humbling experience.If you're not ready to be humble, you might have trouble learning and progressing safely. You posted here with safety concerns, which means you have some humility. Good step. Wish you all the best in your skydiving career. edited to add : QuoteNow how do you learn to avoid that given the fact that you can't afford to intentionally simulate a malfunction up in the air just to practice your reactions? fighter pilots learn how to use their ejection seats and don't use them very often, some things you can't learn by DOING, but you learn the moves, drill them, they will become a second nature. I didn't "USE" live my cutaway procedure till around jump 800, and it was a great experience, validating the things I learnt 3 1/2 years ago.scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites danielmaxin 0 #6 February 12, 2006 Quotewhen you are in your car in a bad situation, you have usually less than 20 seconds to save your ass don't you ? Yes that is true, however, one can start practicing on less crowded streets before going on a highway. With skydiving it's the same gravity force for all. You can't say "I'm gonna let myself fall slower because I am a novice and I need more time to react" Quotepeople. This whole adventure is a very humbling experience.If you're not ready to be humble, you might have trouble learning and progressing safely. trust me I am as humble as it gets. In fact, the only doubt I have is that although I enjoyed my tandem a lot I do not believe that this sport is worth dying for. I do not mean to say that skydivers are suicidal quite the contrary but I do believe that some will consider the sport rewarding enough to worth risking your life. And for me it is not the case. AS much as I like flying in the sky there are a heck of a lot other things that I want to do with my life besides skydiving. So I doubt sometime that my level of acceptance of risk is suited for this sport. Most likely though I will make my decision whether to continue or not after my first AFF levels. Till then it's just theory. Thanks for all your replys Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 259 #7 February 12, 2006 QuoteI do not mean to say that skydivers are suicidal quite the contrary but I do believe that some will consider the sport rewarding enough to worth risking your life. And for me it is not the case. Skydiving isn't for everybody. That's okay. But if you're going to do it you need to understand and accept the fact that you can be seriously injured or die doing it. Far better to figure this out now, before you've dumped a whole bunch of money and time into it. QuoteMost likely though I will make my decision whether to continue or not after my first AFF levels. If you can't/won't accept that you can be seriously injured or die, even while doing your student jumps, I'd suggest not jumping again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MB38 0 #8 February 12, 2006 QuoteYou can't say "I'm gonna let myself fall slower because I am a novice and I need more time to react"No, but you can pull higher until you're comfortable. You *will* pull high as a student and you are welcome to continue doing so afterwards [as long as you let everybody know and exit in the right order].I really don't know what I'm talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites danielmaxin 0 #9 February 12, 2006 QuoteNo, but you can pull higher until you're comfortable. You *will* pull high as a student and you are welcome to continue doing so afterwards [as long as you let everybody know and exit in the right order]. Yes I forgot about this and it does answer some of my concerns. Which reminds me to ask to other questions I have: 1. How high can an usual Otter fly? I hear about jumps from between 13000-15000 feet. Why not jump from the highest possible altitude? What is the the highest you can jump from without oxygen? 2. What is the actual purpose of a LALO jump? If all you want to enjoy is the canopy ride who stops you to jump from 13000 feet, open the parachute there and enjoy an even longer canopy ride with the advantage of having some altitude for mistakes/malfunctios etc... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MB38 0 #10 February 12, 2006 Legally, I believe the altitude is 14,000 feet above sea level [ASL] without oxygen. If your dropzone is above sea level [Perris is about 1,500 feet ASL, for example], they can't go as high [12,500' at Perris, as the example]. A hop 'n pop [LALO] is most common for canopy control and landings. If the purpose of the skydive is to work on a new landing technique, why bother going all the way to the top? Save some money, get out low and get your canopy/landing practice in. Many dropzones allow full-altitude hop 'n pops, generally for CRW jumping. Ask your instructors or manifest once you're farther along.I really don't know what I'm talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 259 #11 February 12, 2006 Quote Legally, I believe the altitude is 14,000 feet above sea level [ASL] without oxygen. You can go up to 15,000 feet MSL (mean sea level) without oxygen. The planes at Perris don't routinely go above 12,500 AGL (above ground level), which is about 14,000 feet MSL. Special clearance from ATC is required for them to exceed that altitude - lots of heavies fly through that airspace. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MB38 0 #12 February 12, 2006 Thanks for clarifying I really don't know what I'm talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #13 February 13, 2006 QuoteHi, After my first tandem last summer I decided to start my AFF program soon. I am prefectly aware that one must accept the risk factor in order to enjoy almost any sport however there is only one problem related to skydiving that makes me fear too much about possible malfunctions. Namely, how much skill is needed in order to avoid/deal with the common malfunctions? What I mean is I would be more confident if I knew that anybody can execute in time and correctly all emergency procedures. For what I see this sport does not give any room to learn from mistakes. That's why there is no comfort to me in the fact that ,you are more likely to die from a car crash because going slow first one can learn to be a good driver from small mistakes In skydiving however there are only 20ish seconds to save your ass and I am affraid that should something wrong occur my lack of experience will prevent me to react correctly in an emergency. Bottom line is, should something bad happen during my jumps, I don't want that to be due to some avoidable mistakes. Now how do you learn to avoid that given the fact that you can't afford to intentionally simulate a malfunction up in the air just to practice your reactions? I take it that you have yet to take the first jump course (FJC). Once you are trained by an AFF instructor you will be prepared to deal with such contingencies. Here in online forums is not the place to be trained for emergency situations - the proper place for that is in person with your instructors who will properly prepare you with the configuration of gear you will be jumping. Student gear can vary from DZ to DZ so it is essential that you receive your advisement in person from the AFF instructors who will be training you at the DZ where you will be on student status. After you have been trained thoroughly by your instructor(s) you will be ready to deal with emergency procedures on the gear you be using on student status, so be patient and wait until you are trained in person by your INSTRUCTORS. Reserve canopies are very reliable; trust your gear and your training after you have received it. Oh yeah, one more thing, ask YOUR NSTRUCTORS…Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 14 #14 February 13, 2006 Very little skill is needed to handle a malfunction. I think it's all in your mindset. Practice on the ground, practice in your head, think about it until it becomes a part of you. When the malfunction finally happens, believe it and take action now. I've seen people go in or almost go in because they were in denial, they couldn't believe they were under a streamer, etc. Believe it, and just do your EP's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trae 1 #15 February 13, 2006 in reply to "Bottom line is, should something bad happen during my jumps, I don't want that to be due to some avoidable mistakes. Now how do you learn to avoid that given the fact that you can't afford to intentionally simulate a malfunction up in the air just to practice your reactions? " ........................ When most of us skydive we use two of the best brakes in the business. If the first one doesn't work then it is usually VERY obvious...and then there's an even more reliable parachute waiting ...poised ...just itchin' to go. The motivation to get rid of the malfunctioning main and activate your reserve is directly proportional to your motivation to stay alive. If you have been trained well and keep practicing what you've been taught then when it comes time to deal with a malfunction most of the time you will do it almost automatically. It's all about making the decision to do it. You'll know what to do . You just have to know when to do it........and DO IT without mucking around watching the pretty malfunction. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mattyblast 0 #16 February 13, 2006 *looks up and agrees with JohnMitchell* If the instructors at your DZ are like mine, they'll be happy to explain anything that you feel didn't quite sink in the first time during the FJC. The better the job you do at learning about the various malfunctions and how to deal with each one, the more you'll keep your composure when something actually happens. On my 6th jump, my lines twisted up like a piece of licorice (which isn't a bona-fide malfunction, but still something abnormal that needed corrective action). My heart beat a little faster, but I just thought about the part of class where I had to get up in front of everybody and demonstrate how to kick out. Six or seven kicks later, I had the lines straightened out and was happy that I had put into practice something important that I had learned. The confidence will come with the training, education, and practice...and we'll keep getting lots of all three! "DOOR!!!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #17 February 13, 2006 QuoteLegally, I believe the altitude is 14,000 feet above sea level [ASL] without oxygen. If your dropzone is above sea level [Perris is about 1,500 feet ASL, for example], they can't go as high [12,500' at Perris, as the example]. There is a pilot requirement at 14, or if the flight is longer than 30 minutes (seems unlikely) it starts at 12.5. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #18 February 13, 2006 Quote That's why there is no comfort to me in the fact that ,you are more likely to die from a car crash because going slow first one can learn to be a good driver from small mistakes Possibly because it's not true. In the US you're roughly 6 times more like to die skydiving. (1:1000 versus 1:6500/annum) The AFF jumps do set up an easier path - you're jumping with highly skilled instructors as backups, you're pulling 10 seconds earlier and with large parachutes. But it's still serious business and the duty of care on you is so much higher than it was as a tandem student (or passenger, depending on the DZ). One of the DZs here actually does free ground school occasionally. Others price it separately from the first jump at up to $99. You can do the classroom time and decide if you're ready and willing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites daniel_owen_uk 0 #19 February 13, 2006 Whilst you won't have the knowledge at the moment to realise why, your analogy is actually pretty good. When you first start skydiving there are a lot things put in place to help you out, similar to when you first start driving. Canopy for example you could relate to car, you wouldn't learn in a ferrari that is very unforgiving of mistakes, similarly your wing loading and shape of canopy (they aren't all just square), is specifically for students, designed to be more forgiving. Pull altitude, specifically higher for students, giving you more time to deal with a mal. AAD, whilst not specifically for students, its a device put in place to help deal with worst of the worst situations. RSL, another device designed to help with student malfunctions. I can see how to the untrained eye, you are being thrown into the deep end with the sharks, but once you go through the FJC, I am sure you will have much more confidence in the equipment.__________________ BOOM Headshot Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TrickyDicky 0 #20 February 13, 2006 Quote Namely, how much skill is needed in order to avoid/deal with the common malfunctions? What I mean is I would be more confident if I knew that anybody can execute in time and correctly all emergency procedures. You will learn how to deal with any emergency on your FJC. If your instructor doesnt think you would be able to deal with ANY emergency, they wont let you jump until they think you can. Ive seen students on their first jumps deal with it fine. I think 99/100 they will do as they were trained with no problems. I do know of 2 incidents at my old DZ within 5/6 years where the student didnt do their reserve drills at all, and in both cases the students got lucky (extremly lucky in the 2nd instance) and came out with no more than compress vertibre. They also never came back. UK Skydiver for all your UK skydiving needs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Mike111 0 #21 February 13, 2006 Hi dan, The other day i had a small set of line twists on a skymaster 230. For the firts second i was like.. what!!!!! But then the training kicked in,. once i worked out which way to untwist they came out pretty easily. Point being, I found that EP's were liek a ahbit, i did them automatically without thinking. As others have said having confidence and knowing them thoroughly will help you overcome the fear, but don't worry , i was shit scared liek you about them until one develoes the self belief that they can handle it. Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mdrejhon 8 #22 February 13, 2006 QuotePossibly because it's not true. In the US you're roughly 6 times more like to die skydiving. (1:1000 versus 1:6500/annum)The reason why some people say it is true and others say no, is it depends on how much you drive, and what type of jumps you take. There's really no way to say. Skydiving CAN be safer than driving, but skydiving CAN be more dangerous too. A couiple of people say the approximate statistics overlap point is 17 skydives approroximately equals 10,000 miles of driving. (If I remember correctly, this was calculated from the number of jumps in 1:1000 and the number of miles in 1:6500). However, tandems, on average, are much safer than that. And motorcycles, on average, are more dangerous than that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites timmyfitz 0 #23 February 13, 2006 § 91.211 Supplemental oxygen. (a) General. No person may operate a civil aircraft of U.S. registry— (1) At cabin pressure altitudes above 12,500 feet (MSL) up to and including 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen for that part of the flight at those altitudes that is of more than 30 minutes duration; (2) At cabin pressure altitudes above 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen during the entire flight time at those altitudes; and (3) At cabin pressure altitudes above 15,000 feet (MSL) unless each occupant of the aircraft is provided with supplemental oxygen. Basically this says (1)The minimum flight crew (pilot) is required to use oxygen between 12,500 and 14,000 after 30 minutes at that altitude. (2) Above 14,000 feet the pilot is required to use oxygen at all time above this altitude and (3) Oxygen must be made available to all occupant above 15,000 feet but you don't have to use it if you are not part of the minimum flight crew. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tbrown 26 #24 February 13, 2006 Daniel, when it finally happens that you need to cutaway, you should have had plenty of practice on the ground. It will be more disorienting than you'd imagined and you'll be breathing pretty hard and thinking "oh god, oh god, oh god" a lot. But what you really have to do is pretty basic. Just point your toes and LOOK at your chest for those handles. No matter how bad you're being spun, your chest will always be straight down, below your chin. Find those handles, peel the cutaway handle with one or two hands, whichever way you were trained and practiced, and get a visual fix on your reserve handle. Then punch your cutaway all the way out to full arm's length and go for the reserve handle. At your experience level, you should have a RSL, but you're going to pull the other handle too, even if you're already getting line stretch under your reserve (which you probably will be). At this stage of the game, don't worry if you drop one or both handles. When you look up and see your reserve, you'll breath a huge sigh of relief. Check your altimeter, look around for where you are, where the dropzone is, or where you can make the nearest safe out landing. Pop your brakes off, quick practice a flare or two if you've got altitude and fly a pattern to your selected landing spot. When you land you are going to feel REALLY GOOD about yourself for cheating the Reaper. You may go hundred, or even thousands of jumps before you have to do this. You may never have to do it. But be ready EVERY time, because you never know. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #25 February 13, 2006 QuoteQuotePossibly because it's not true. In the US you're roughly 6 times more like to die skydiving. (1:1000 versus 1:6500/annum)The reason why some people say it is true and others say no, is it depends on how much you drive, and what type of jumps you take. There's really no way to say. Unless said student has totallled a couple cars already, there's no reason to believe he is different from the norm, making skydiving much more dangerous. Trying to figure out if it's 6.5, or 4, or 10 times misses the point, imo. (And we're all better than average drivers, right?) He is asking the right questions, of us, and of himself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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piisfish 135 #5 February 12, 2006 QuoteFor what I see this sport does not give any room to learn from mistakes. That's why there is no comfort to me in the fact that ,you are more likely to die from a car crash because going slow first one can learn to be a good driver from small mistakes In skydiving however there are only 20ish seconds to save your ass when you are in your car in a bad situation, you have usually less than 20 seconds to save your ass don't you ? The thing is you are learning at 120mph. There is space for small mistakes. You can learn from them. You can also partially learn from mistakes of other people. This whole adventure is a very humbling experience.If you're not ready to be humble, you might have trouble learning and progressing safely. You posted here with safety concerns, which means you have some humility. Good step. Wish you all the best in your skydiving career. edited to add : QuoteNow how do you learn to avoid that given the fact that you can't afford to intentionally simulate a malfunction up in the air just to practice your reactions? fighter pilots learn how to use their ejection seats and don't use them very often, some things you can't learn by DOING, but you learn the moves, drill them, they will become a second nature. I didn't "USE" live my cutaway procedure till around jump 800, and it was a great experience, validating the things I learnt 3 1/2 years ago.scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielmaxin 0 #6 February 12, 2006 Quotewhen you are in your car in a bad situation, you have usually less than 20 seconds to save your ass don't you ? Yes that is true, however, one can start practicing on less crowded streets before going on a highway. With skydiving it's the same gravity force for all. You can't say "I'm gonna let myself fall slower because I am a novice and I need more time to react" Quotepeople. This whole adventure is a very humbling experience.If you're not ready to be humble, you might have trouble learning and progressing safely. trust me I am as humble as it gets. In fact, the only doubt I have is that although I enjoyed my tandem a lot I do not believe that this sport is worth dying for. I do not mean to say that skydivers are suicidal quite the contrary but I do believe that some will consider the sport rewarding enough to worth risking your life. And for me it is not the case. AS much as I like flying in the sky there are a heck of a lot other things that I want to do with my life besides skydiving. So I doubt sometime that my level of acceptance of risk is suited for this sport. Most likely though I will make my decision whether to continue or not after my first AFF levels. Till then it's just theory. Thanks for all your replys Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #7 February 12, 2006 QuoteI do not mean to say that skydivers are suicidal quite the contrary but I do believe that some will consider the sport rewarding enough to worth risking your life. And for me it is not the case. Skydiving isn't for everybody. That's okay. But if you're going to do it you need to understand and accept the fact that you can be seriously injured or die doing it. Far better to figure this out now, before you've dumped a whole bunch of money and time into it. QuoteMost likely though I will make my decision whether to continue or not after my first AFF levels. If you can't/won't accept that you can be seriously injured or die, even while doing your student jumps, I'd suggest not jumping again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MB38 0 #8 February 12, 2006 QuoteYou can't say "I'm gonna let myself fall slower because I am a novice and I need more time to react"No, but you can pull higher until you're comfortable. You *will* pull high as a student and you are welcome to continue doing so afterwards [as long as you let everybody know and exit in the right order].I really don't know what I'm talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielmaxin 0 #9 February 12, 2006 QuoteNo, but you can pull higher until you're comfortable. You *will* pull high as a student and you are welcome to continue doing so afterwards [as long as you let everybody know and exit in the right order]. Yes I forgot about this and it does answer some of my concerns. Which reminds me to ask to other questions I have: 1. How high can an usual Otter fly? I hear about jumps from between 13000-15000 feet. Why not jump from the highest possible altitude? What is the the highest you can jump from without oxygen? 2. What is the actual purpose of a LALO jump? If all you want to enjoy is the canopy ride who stops you to jump from 13000 feet, open the parachute there and enjoy an even longer canopy ride with the advantage of having some altitude for mistakes/malfunctios etc... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MB38 0 #10 February 12, 2006 Legally, I believe the altitude is 14,000 feet above sea level [ASL] without oxygen. If your dropzone is above sea level [Perris is about 1,500 feet ASL, for example], they can't go as high [12,500' at Perris, as the example]. A hop 'n pop [LALO] is most common for canopy control and landings. If the purpose of the skydive is to work on a new landing technique, why bother going all the way to the top? Save some money, get out low and get your canopy/landing practice in. Many dropzones allow full-altitude hop 'n pops, generally for CRW jumping. Ask your instructors or manifest once you're farther along.I really don't know what I'm talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #11 February 12, 2006 Quote Legally, I believe the altitude is 14,000 feet above sea level [ASL] without oxygen. You can go up to 15,000 feet MSL (mean sea level) without oxygen. The planes at Perris don't routinely go above 12,500 AGL (above ground level), which is about 14,000 feet MSL. Special clearance from ATC is required for them to exceed that altitude - lots of heavies fly through that airspace. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MB38 0 #12 February 12, 2006 Thanks for clarifying I really don't know what I'm talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #13 February 13, 2006 QuoteHi, After my first tandem last summer I decided to start my AFF program soon. I am prefectly aware that one must accept the risk factor in order to enjoy almost any sport however there is only one problem related to skydiving that makes me fear too much about possible malfunctions. Namely, how much skill is needed in order to avoid/deal with the common malfunctions? What I mean is I would be more confident if I knew that anybody can execute in time and correctly all emergency procedures. For what I see this sport does not give any room to learn from mistakes. That's why there is no comfort to me in the fact that ,you are more likely to die from a car crash because going slow first one can learn to be a good driver from small mistakes In skydiving however there are only 20ish seconds to save your ass and I am affraid that should something wrong occur my lack of experience will prevent me to react correctly in an emergency. Bottom line is, should something bad happen during my jumps, I don't want that to be due to some avoidable mistakes. Now how do you learn to avoid that given the fact that you can't afford to intentionally simulate a malfunction up in the air just to practice your reactions? I take it that you have yet to take the first jump course (FJC). Once you are trained by an AFF instructor you will be prepared to deal with such contingencies. Here in online forums is not the place to be trained for emergency situations - the proper place for that is in person with your instructors who will properly prepare you with the configuration of gear you will be jumping. Student gear can vary from DZ to DZ so it is essential that you receive your advisement in person from the AFF instructors who will be training you at the DZ where you will be on student status. After you have been trained thoroughly by your instructor(s) you will be ready to deal with emergency procedures on the gear you be using on student status, so be patient and wait until you are trained in person by your INSTRUCTORS. Reserve canopies are very reliable; trust your gear and your training after you have received it. Oh yeah, one more thing, ask YOUR NSTRUCTORS…Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #14 February 13, 2006 Very little skill is needed to handle a malfunction. I think it's all in your mindset. Practice on the ground, practice in your head, think about it until it becomes a part of you. When the malfunction finally happens, believe it and take action now. I've seen people go in or almost go in because they were in denial, they couldn't believe they were under a streamer, etc. Believe it, and just do your EP's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trae 1 #15 February 13, 2006 in reply to "Bottom line is, should something bad happen during my jumps, I don't want that to be due to some avoidable mistakes. Now how do you learn to avoid that given the fact that you can't afford to intentionally simulate a malfunction up in the air just to practice your reactions? " ........................ When most of us skydive we use two of the best brakes in the business. If the first one doesn't work then it is usually VERY obvious...and then there's an even more reliable parachute waiting ...poised ...just itchin' to go. The motivation to get rid of the malfunctioning main and activate your reserve is directly proportional to your motivation to stay alive. If you have been trained well and keep practicing what you've been taught then when it comes time to deal with a malfunction most of the time you will do it almost automatically. It's all about making the decision to do it. You'll know what to do . You just have to know when to do it........and DO IT without mucking around watching the pretty malfunction. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattyblast 0 #16 February 13, 2006 *looks up and agrees with JohnMitchell* If the instructors at your DZ are like mine, they'll be happy to explain anything that you feel didn't quite sink in the first time during the FJC. The better the job you do at learning about the various malfunctions and how to deal with each one, the more you'll keep your composure when something actually happens. On my 6th jump, my lines twisted up like a piece of licorice (which isn't a bona-fide malfunction, but still something abnormal that needed corrective action). My heart beat a little faster, but I just thought about the part of class where I had to get up in front of everybody and demonstrate how to kick out. Six or seven kicks later, I had the lines straightened out and was happy that I had put into practice something important that I had learned. The confidence will come with the training, education, and practice...and we'll keep getting lots of all three! "DOOR!!!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #17 February 13, 2006 QuoteLegally, I believe the altitude is 14,000 feet above sea level [ASL] without oxygen. If your dropzone is above sea level [Perris is about 1,500 feet ASL, for example], they can't go as high [12,500' at Perris, as the example]. There is a pilot requirement at 14, or if the flight is longer than 30 minutes (seems unlikely) it starts at 12.5. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #18 February 13, 2006 Quote That's why there is no comfort to me in the fact that ,you are more likely to die from a car crash because going slow first one can learn to be a good driver from small mistakes Possibly because it's not true. In the US you're roughly 6 times more like to die skydiving. (1:1000 versus 1:6500/annum) The AFF jumps do set up an easier path - you're jumping with highly skilled instructors as backups, you're pulling 10 seconds earlier and with large parachutes. But it's still serious business and the duty of care on you is so much higher than it was as a tandem student (or passenger, depending on the DZ). One of the DZs here actually does free ground school occasionally. Others price it separately from the first jump at up to $99. You can do the classroom time and decide if you're ready and willing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
daniel_owen_uk 0 #19 February 13, 2006 Whilst you won't have the knowledge at the moment to realise why, your analogy is actually pretty good. When you first start skydiving there are a lot things put in place to help you out, similar to when you first start driving. Canopy for example you could relate to car, you wouldn't learn in a ferrari that is very unforgiving of mistakes, similarly your wing loading and shape of canopy (they aren't all just square), is specifically for students, designed to be more forgiving. Pull altitude, specifically higher for students, giving you more time to deal with a mal. AAD, whilst not specifically for students, its a device put in place to help deal with worst of the worst situations. RSL, another device designed to help with student malfunctions. I can see how to the untrained eye, you are being thrown into the deep end with the sharks, but once you go through the FJC, I am sure you will have much more confidence in the equipment.__________________ BOOM Headshot Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrickyDicky 0 #20 February 13, 2006 Quote Namely, how much skill is needed in order to avoid/deal with the common malfunctions? What I mean is I would be more confident if I knew that anybody can execute in time and correctly all emergency procedures. You will learn how to deal with any emergency on your FJC. If your instructor doesnt think you would be able to deal with ANY emergency, they wont let you jump until they think you can. Ive seen students on their first jumps deal with it fine. I think 99/100 they will do as they were trained with no problems. I do know of 2 incidents at my old DZ within 5/6 years where the student didnt do their reserve drills at all, and in both cases the students got lucky (extremly lucky in the 2nd instance) and came out with no more than compress vertibre. They also never came back. UK Skydiver for all your UK skydiving needs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike111 0 #21 February 13, 2006 Hi dan, The other day i had a small set of line twists on a skymaster 230. For the firts second i was like.. what!!!!! But then the training kicked in,. once i worked out which way to untwist they came out pretty easily. Point being, I found that EP's were liek a ahbit, i did them automatically without thinking. As others have said having confidence and knowing them thoroughly will help you overcome the fear, but don't worry , i was shit scared liek you about them until one develoes the self belief that they can handle it. Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #22 February 13, 2006 QuotePossibly because it's not true. In the US you're roughly 6 times more like to die skydiving. (1:1000 versus 1:6500/annum)The reason why some people say it is true and others say no, is it depends on how much you drive, and what type of jumps you take. There's really no way to say. Skydiving CAN be safer than driving, but skydiving CAN be more dangerous too. A couiple of people say the approximate statistics overlap point is 17 skydives approroximately equals 10,000 miles of driving. (If I remember correctly, this was calculated from the number of jumps in 1:1000 and the number of miles in 1:6500). However, tandems, on average, are much safer than that. And motorcycles, on average, are more dangerous than that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #23 February 13, 2006 § 91.211 Supplemental oxygen. (a) General. No person may operate a civil aircraft of U.S. registry— (1) At cabin pressure altitudes above 12,500 feet (MSL) up to and including 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen for that part of the flight at those altitudes that is of more than 30 minutes duration; (2) At cabin pressure altitudes above 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen during the entire flight time at those altitudes; and (3) At cabin pressure altitudes above 15,000 feet (MSL) unless each occupant of the aircraft is provided with supplemental oxygen. Basically this says (1)The minimum flight crew (pilot) is required to use oxygen between 12,500 and 14,000 after 30 minutes at that altitude. (2) Above 14,000 feet the pilot is required to use oxygen at all time above this altitude and (3) Oxygen must be made available to all occupant above 15,000 feet but you don't have to use it if you are not part of the minimum flight crew. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #24 February 13, 2006 Daniel, when it finally happens that you need to cutaway, you should have had plenty of practice on the ground. It will be more disorienting than you'd imagined and you'll be breathing pretty hard and thinking "oh god, oh god, oh god" a lot. But what you really have to do is pretty basic. Just point your toes and LOOK at your chest for those handles. No matter how bad you're being spun, your chest will always be straight down, below your chin. Find those handles, peel the cutaway handle with one or two hands, whichever way you were trained and practiced, and get a visual fix on your reserve handle. Then punch your cutaway all the way out to full arm's length and go for the reserve handle. At your experience level, you should have a RSL, but you're going to pull the other handle too, even if you're already getting line stretch under your reserve (which you probably will be). At this stage of the game, don't worry if you drop one or both handles. When you look up and see your reserve, you'll breath a huge sigh of relief. Check your altimeter, look around for where you are, where the dropzone is, or where you can make the nearest safe out landing. Pop your brakes off, quick practice a flare or two if you've got altitude and fly a pattern to your selected landing spot. When you land you are going to feel REALLY GOOD about yourself for cheating the Reaper. You may go hundred, or even thousands of jumps before you have to do this. You may never have to do it. But be ready EVERY time, because you never know. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #25 February 13, 2006 QuoteQuotePossibly because it's not true. In the US you're roughly 6 times more like to die skydiving. (1:1000 versus 1:6500/annum)The reason why some people say it is true and others say no, is it depends on how much you drive, and what type of jumps you take. There's really no way to say. Unless said student has totallled a couple cars already, there's no reason to believe he is different from the norm, making skydiving much more dangerous. Trying to figure out if it's 6.5, or 4, or 10 times misses the point, imo. (And we're all better than average drivers, right?) He is asking the right questions, of us, and of himself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
